Author Topic: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin  (Read 217754 times)

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SorO_Lost

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #260 on: June 28, 2011, 11:43:58 PM »
For the record, my major was Being Right All The Time.
Never question me on anything when I make my official decrees.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Solo

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #261 on: June 28, 2011, 11:45:59 PM »
So you're like the pope.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

snakeman830

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #262 on: June 29, 2011, 12:52:23 AM »
Except nobody follows him.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

ninjarabbit

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #263 on: June 29, 2011, 01:33:53 AM »
The only difference between the Pop and anyone else is the number of people who believe you.

One thing I find interesting is that zombie and skeleton animals and magical beasts are cheaper to buy/make/whatever than the live versions, even more so considering that you don't have to feed the undead versions. For example a live heavy horse is 200 gps, a skeleton one costs 75 gps to make.

ImperatorK

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #264 on: June 29, 2011, 07:15:04 AM »
Because they're less popular/needed.
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

LordBlades

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #265 on: June 29, 2011, 07:51:58 AM »
Because they're less popular/needed.

But better usually (they can work 24/7, not needing any rest or sleep), maintenance free and more environmentally friendly(they don't breathe releasing CO2 into the atmosphere and in the case of horses they don't need to consume O2 producing organisms).

ImperatorK

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #266 on: June 29, 2011, 08:04:04 AM »
Because they're less popular/needed.

But better usually (they can work 24/7, not needing any rest or sleep), maintenance free and more environmentally friendly(they don't breathe releasing CO2 into the atmosphere and in the case of horses they don't need to consume O2 producing organisms).
Does not matter. In most D&D settings necromancy is not tolerated ans so are undead.
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

LordBlades

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #267 on: June 29, 2011, 08:12:53 AM »
Then guys in most D&D settings don't know what they're missing :P
On a more serious note it's nothing new that the price and usefulness of something are unrelated in D&D


Solo

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #269 on: June 29, 2011, 08:46:31 AM »
But better usually (they can work 24/7, not needing any rest or sleep), maintenance free and more environmentally friendly(they don't breathe releasing CO2 into the atmosphere and in the case of horses they don't need to consume O2 producing organisms).
So what you're saying is that off of the battlefield, an Adept can kick off the post mortem industrial revolution.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

X-Codes

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #270 on: June 29, 2011, 09:07:26 AM »
I was, personally, never enamored with the idea of nonintelligent undead as cheap labor.  They can't make craft or profession checks because those are trained only skills, and skeletons and zombies just don't have skill points.  As such, they work at the much less useful rate of 1 sp a day, which won't even pay off the cost of raising them from the dead for almost a year (and that's even assuming that they're 1 HD creatures, good for nothing else).  What's more, this is simple manual labor.  There is nothing produced by their efforts.

As such, Undead can, at best, play a role in an economy, but they can't spark anything like the industrial revolution.

LordBlades

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #271 on: June 29, 2011, 10:56:57 AM »
I was, personally, never enamored with the idea of nonintelligent undead as cheap labor.  They can't make craft or profession checks because those are trained only skills, and skeletons and zombies just don't have skill points.  As such, they work at the much less useful rate of 1 sp a day, which won't even pay off the cost of raising them from the dead for almost a year (and that's even assuming that they're 1 HD creatures, good for nothing else).  What's more, this is simple manual labor.  There is nothing produced by their efforts.

As such, Undead can, at best, play a role in an economy, but they can't spark anything like the industrial revolution.

Craft is not trained only (unlike profession) but it's an int skill. I have no idea what rules( if any) would apply for a creature with Int:- trying to use a skill that keys on Int.

snakeman830

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #272 on: June 29, 2011, 11:38:43 AM »
I was, personally, never enamored with the idea of nonintelligent undead as cheap labor.  They can't make craft or profession checks because those are trained only skills, and skeletons and zombies just don't have skill points.  As such, they work at the much less useful rate of 1 sp a day, which won't even pay off the cost of raising them from the dead for almost a year (and that's even assuming that they're 1 HD creatures, good for nothing else).  What's more, this is simple manual labor.  There is nothing produced by their efforts.

As such, Undead can, at best, play a role in an economy, but they can't spark anything like the industrial revolution.

Craft is not trained only (unlike profession) but it's an int skill. I have no idea what rules( if any) would apply for a creature with Int:- trying to use a skill that keys on Int.
Creatures with nonabilities trying to make checks based off of an ability they don't have auto-fail. Skellies can't make Int checks, but it looks like they can make Craft checks just fine, they just have a modifier of +0.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #273 on: June 29, 2011, 12:27:20 PM »
Creatures with nonabilities trying to make checks based off of an ability they don't have auto-fail. Skellies can't make Int checks, but it looks like they can make Craft checks just fine, they just have a modifier of +0.

I believe it would be a -5 actually.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Kajhera

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #274 on: June 29, 2011, 12:35:49 PM »
Creatures with nonabilities trying to make checks based off of an ability they don't have auto-fail. Skellies can't make Int checks, but it looks like they can make Craft checks just fine, they just have a modifier of +0.

I believe it would be a -5 actually.

'The modifier for a nonability is +0.' -SRD under Nonabilities

LordBlades

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #275 on: June 29, 2011, 12:51:41 PM »
Creatures with nonabilities trying to make checks based off of an ability they don't have auto-fail. Skellies can't make Int checks, but it looks like they can make Craft checks just fine, they just have a modifier of +0.

I believe it would be a -5 actually.

'The modifier for a nonability is +0.' -SRD under Nonabilities

So industrial revolution is a go by the looks of it  :D With a +0 modifier, a skeleton taking 10 on craft checks can craft 'very simple items' (DC 5) and 'typical items' (DC 10). With a bit of optimization I'm pretty sure we can make it reach DC 15 (for high quality items) or even DC 20 (for 'complex or superior items').

Also, given that you make half the result of your craft check in GP per week, a simple 1 HD skeleton will have paid his animation cost in only 5 weeks
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 12:54:11 PM by LordBlades »

SorO_Lost

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #276 on: June 29, 2011, 01:13:02 PM »
Assuming they can use the craft skill at all.
Quote from: RC
You need items, like a Masterwork Tool (50gp) or such.
But...
Quote from: FAQ, around page 102, just search for mindless
Could a golem use a magic item, such as a ring of invisibility?
A golem can make use of any magic item that works continuously or is use activated (provided whoever commands the golem is on hand to put the item on the golem or order the golem to pick it up). Being mindless, a golem cannot use any item activated by command, spell, or spell completion.
They may not be able to craft anything really. *shurgs*
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

snakeman830

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #277 on: June 29, 2011, 01:22:29 PM »
Should we make a thread for uses of mindless undead and similar minions?
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Kajhera

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #278 on: June 29, 2011, 01:26:00 PM »
Since intelligence checks and intelligence-based skill checks are separate things, skeleton should be able to craft. As long as it doesn't need to involve speech or spell completion and you program their instructions properly.

However ... once you start giving them *magic* items you start running into a whole lot of capital costs, so don't expect more than masterwork tools. You can't take 10 on aid another, so this generally won't be the most effective use of labor unless you can mix a third-level bard in somehow. Start the postmortem industrial revolution, wind up with cheap factory-produced goods... Optimizing skills is not easy on mindless things (though if I can quietly inquire where my necromancer friend got the ability to give her skeletons +49 on profession(miner))... Somewhere in Ravenloft apparently, with something called the Reign Undead skill. Two months of training to give them a bonus on a skill of half your bonus on that skill. (Now to quietly inquire where she got +98 to that skill, I think I may be misremembering the number.) Ah, but it only works for profession skills.

Also, yes.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 01:33:29 PM by Kajhera »

MalcolmSprye

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #279 on: June 29, 2011, 04:40:01 PM »
Except nobody follows him.
Wait... the Pope is on Twitter? how many followers does he have?