Author Topic: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin  (Read 217737 times)

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Solo

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #220 on: June 26, 2011, 07:49:56 PM »
If your intent is to prevent the appearance of massive dicks, I must woefully inform you that you are far too late.

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #221 on: June 26, 2011, 07:53:23 PM »
If your intent is to prevent the appearance of massive dicks, I must woefully inform you that you are far too late.
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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #222 on: June 26, 2011, 08:03:31 PM »
If your intent is to prevent the appearance of massive dicks, I must woefully inform you that you are far too late.
*Opens mouth to say something, but...*

Nah, too easy.

Are you implying that he is tall and has been given the name of Richard?

ninjarabbit

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #223 on: June 26, 2011, 10:01:30 PM »
To get back on track yes we can talk about animate dead optimization all day long (which by itself makes an adept tier 4) but there's plenty of other avenues for adept optimization: handle animal optimization, poison optimization (craft (poison), snake familiar, other animals via handle animal, minor and major creation), polymorph optimization (something else that makes an adept tier 4 almost all by itself), and Eberron domain adept optimization.

By comparison what avenues of optimization does the monk have? At best we have diplomacy optimization but even then the monk is going to lack a high cha and other social skills to really be effective doing so. Unarmed strike optimization is a dead end, AC optimization is a joke, any attempt at being a mageslayer is laughable, grappling is a losing battle, and overall the monk simply does not fill any rolls within a party. Even the NPC warrior class fill the role of BSF.

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #224 on: June 26, 2011, 10:19:26 PM »
I do want to chime in that Unarmed Strike optimization isn't so much a dead end as it is a dead end within the class itself. Multiclassing and some other shenanigans do let you jack your unarmed strike damage so high that, as part of a lockdown build, you can be pretty nasty, but most of the damage doesn't come from the Monk class due to the nonlinear nature of damage increases, but it does rely on the Monk as a necessary component. That's not a huge thing in favor of the actual class, but that dismissal requires some clarification, at least.
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JaronK

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #225 on: June 27, 2011, 12:09:33 AM »
You still brought up the hydra in the adept build. It's not a strawman if you did exactly what I'm acusing you of doing.

I brought up a hydra as an example of a nasty undead you could make.  You're the one who then decided I was saying you got to cherry pick exactly the undead you wanted... THAT is the strawman.  10 headed Hydras just happen to make some of the best zombies... but there are better undead you can make too (for example almost any zombie or skeletal dragon, Storm Giant skeletons, and so on).  Seriously: hydras are just an example.  Feel free to find me saying otherwise anywhere.

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Unless you bring up some random creature generator (that works with all creature types, not just those that are efficient to animate dead), you'll be still cherry picking, when otherwise it's up to the campaign and the DM what monsters you face.

That's just stupid.

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Zombies fly so poorly they'l be hard pressed to do anything. Skeletons are more efficient, but magic flying creatures with great natural combat stats are indeed rare.

And yet both fight against flyers better than most Monks, so, you know, we're cool there.

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"Appropriate" meaning a lot of diferent things to diferent persons. Otherwise nobody would've bringed up the 10 headed hydras at 10th level (and then trying to cheese out ways to animate dead 12 headed hydra zombies on top).

No... I'm pretty sure picking a 10HD melee critter from MM1 is a pretty appropriate example of a melee critter around CR 8-14.  I'm sure the person talking about 12 headed zombie hydras simply misremembered.  It just so happens that Hydras make great zombies.

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But we don't have a game here. We have a 1x1 duel. This adept never adventured or fought any battle, and now you want to give it advantages based solely on its background.

Now if you want, we can fill the duel arena with other randomized monsters and if your adept can kill them and animate deading them in real time then I have no complains.

Who the heck invented this rule?  We're talking about which class is stronger in play.  1X1 duels are useless for determining such things.  And we have yet another strawman... I have said nothing about background.  I'm saying in the course of a campaign you're going to fight monsters, and some will likely be melee monsters.  These you can turn into powerful undead via Animate Dead.  Then I gave some examples.  That's all.  Anything else is either a strawman (such as your insistence that the Hydra Zombie was anything other than a singular example) or shifting goalposts (such as you here insisting we're talking about duels).  

Seriously, go find an example of me (or heck, anyone) claiming this was about dueling.  We're talking about D&D here, not Yu-Gi-Oh.

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I was checking out the Monsters of Faerun version, which is where google said they're from. What's UE again?

Unapproachable East.

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Please, vine/golem/grave strike have been printed long ago to enable rogues to easily sneak up pretty much everything. :p

Oh good, now we've got a Rogue that, best case, has to burn a charge off a wand every round just to hurt anything.  Yeah, that's gonna be an awesome campaign.  Sure, you think it's unreasonable to say that at some point an Adept player might fight a melee creature that's good to turn into a skeleton or zombie during a campaign, but a campaign of nothing but Constructs, Plants, and Undead where there's constantly wands of grave/vine/razing strike everywhere?  Totally normal!

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Based on your previous logic, dead magic zones exist somewhere in the campaign, so clearly the fight will be in a dead-magic zone that happens to be filled with optimal monsters for animate deading. One background condition from each player is only fair.

Um, no?  Based on my previous logic, somewhere in the campaign world there might be a dead magic zone... but since you can't bring the results of that with you, it doesn't really matter.  Why do you think "there's some melee monsters in the world" is equivalent to "there's dead magic zones over all of them?"  You sound like a terrible DM.  Also, if you happen to have a dead magic zone... drag the corpse out.  Animate it there.  And again, there's no "the fight."  We're talking about playing D&D.  Talk about your Pokemons elsewhere.

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Then choose monsters whitout any specfific preference. There's several random ecounter generators out there to keep things fair. Otherwise, guess what, you're still cherrypicking them when you bring a specific monster out of nowhere to the duel!

Okay.  I used this one: http://www.monsteradvancer.com .  It's the first one Google showed me.  Then I went to the 3.5 encounter generator.  I set it to CR 12, no other modifiers, and clicked generate.  It got me this:  2 Large Digesters (Advanced HD to 13), an 11 HD Huge Girallon, and an 11 HD Thorny Digester.  Two  make okay Skeletons, one makes a very solid Skeleton, the fourth is a plant.  Then I set it to CR 11 and got a Copper Half-Dragon Copper Dragon (what the heck is wrong with this thing?), which makes a great Zombie or Skeleton.  Then I set it to CR 10 and got a Spellwarped Monstrous Centipede, Huge with 11 HD and an 11 HD Monstrous Centipede, Huge.  They'd make passable, but not great, skeletons.  So then I thought I'd try a CR 14, and guess what?  5 Nine Headed Hydras was the result (seriously, I thought that was hilarious).    And that makes some seriously awesome Zombies.  So... see how that works?  I assume that shows you the basic idea?  I went through the CRs so you'd see that at each level he'd be getting new options (not always better options, but new ones).  Out of those 4 encounters I randomly generated, I got 5 amazing zombies, one amazing zombie or skeleton, one decent skeleton, and four just okay skeletons.  Considering you can usually only control 2-3 really good undead at a time via Animate Dead (assuming you go for lots of HD in one creature, which you should) that clearly shows how well this works.

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Last time I checked it's not a strawman to repeat what others have said, and several times you were all mentioning specific optimal monsters for animate dead for the adept to use.

Those are called examples.  Nobody said you needed those exact creatures.  That's your strawman... claiming that anyone was saying you got to pick the exact creatures.  But nobody said that.  What we said was that Animate Dead could get you really solid (and survivable) warriors, and that Hydras and giants and dragons were good examples of that.

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So I'll stop it when you stop it as well and either use a random monster generator,  or simply use some of the other's monk tricks.

Good.  Now I've used a random generator and showed you the basic idea.  And I love that I got that encounter of 5 9 headed hydras.  But feel free to use that one too and have a good time with it until you see how many totally random encounters do indeed result in pretty darn good undead.

JaronK
« Last Edit: June 27, 2011, 02:14:20 AM by JaronK »

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #226 on: June 27, 2011, 12:30:24 AM »
I stay out of threads like these usually, so I apologize if I am suddenly back on topic:

I think the only flaw with creating undead is controlling them. Do Adepts get Control/Command Undead?
did we ever solve this?

The Enveloping Pit is well within the WBL of a 11th level character and solves stealth problems for as many undead as you can squeeze in a 50 ft. cube.

Necrosis Carnex is also well within the reach of a 11th level character with animate dead, and solves the healing problem out of combat.
I really should know the first, but for giggles can I get a source for both?
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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #227 on: June 27, 2011, 12:55:02 AM »
I stay out of threads like these usually, so I apologize if I am suddenly back on topic:

I think the only flaw with creating undead is controlling them. Do Adepts get Control/Command Undead?
did we ever solve this?
Solution is in Animate Dead itself.  Undead you create are automatically under your control.

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The Enveloping Pit is well within the WBL of a 11th level character and solves stealth problems for as many undead as you can squeeze in a 50 ft. cube.

Necrosis Carnex is also well within the reach of a 11th level character with animate dead, and solves the healing problem out of combat.
I really should know the first, but for giggles can I get a source for both?
MIC for Enveloping Pit, MM4 for Necrosis Carnex.

Which, incedentally, has a total cost of 200gp for the iron bands and 5 or 6 (can't recall which) humanoid corpses.
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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #228 on: June 27, 2011, 02:38:52 AM »
Which, incedentally, has a total cost of 200gp for the iron bands and 5 or 6 (can't recall which) humanoid corpses.
I would like to add that if the Necrosis Carnex is destroyed, you can salvage the cold iron from the remains and re-use it for a new one.

Sir Giacomo

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #229 on: June 27, 2011, 07:40:44 PM »
Well, unfortunately I currently do not have the time to answer in more detail right now (work and all that). But maybe just one question to Jaronk: do you honestly believe that a storm giant skeleton (CR 8 I believe) is better than a level 12 monk? Or are you just implying that my level 12 monk is so bad? (you know which one). Think carefully before making such a claim again.

- Giacomo

PS: for your answer it may be helpful to know that neither do storm giant skeletons gain slam attacks (they gain claw attacks); nor do they get 4 attacks/round, just either 2 claw or 2 weapon each.

JaronK

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #230 on: June 27, 2011, 08:06:59 PM »
Well, unfortunately I currently do not have the time to answer in more detail right now (work and all that). But maybe just one question to Jaronk: do you honestly believe that a storm giant skeleton (CR 8 I believe) is better than a level 12 monk? Or are you just implying that my level 12 monk is so bad? (you know which one). Think carefully before making such a claim again.

Having seen the Monks you've been putting out lately, yes, the CR 9 Storm Giant Skeleton has been far superior.  After all, you've been showing us Monks pumping Int and using Skill Prodigy and such (remember, you claimed they could do so and still fight well).  And the Storm Giant Skeleton clearly has far more HP (combined with easier healing), far more immunities, and a far higher bonus to hit.  I think it even does noticeably more damage.  It's even got better long ranged attacks.  As a fighting character, it's far superior.  It's also mindless of course, so it's hardly impressive out of combat (as anything more than a really swanky way to ride from town to town), but I was talking about in combat.

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PS: for your answer it may be helpful to know that neither do storm giant skeletons gain slam attacks (they gain claw attacks); nor do they get 4 attacks/round, just either 2 claw or 2 weapon each.

Skeletons keep the natural attacks (the slams) and gain claw attacks (if they have hands, which Storm Giants do).  So yes, they end up with four natural weapons, allowing for four attacks if they so desire (and if you got bored and threw a Monk's Belt on them, they'd get two iteratives in addition to the four naturals... if you happened to have one of those lying around).

JaronK

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #231 on: June 27, 2011, 08:31:12 PM »
JaronK, honestly: you are not really comparing my level 6 and 7 monk builds focused on skills for comparison with an expert with the combat strength mindless CR 8 or even 9 monster, are you? Could you please STOP THESE DOUBLE STANDARDS? They do not help in this discussion at all. Thank you.

Then, please check out the cloud giant skeleton example in the SRD. The slams got replaced by claws and do not come on top. The wording in the attack section seems to suggest they retain the slams, but definitely no skeleton example sees the claws adding to no. of attacks.

- Giacomo

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #232 on: June 27, 2011, 08:34:40 PM »
Let's take a look at a storm giant skeleton, assuming the maker had the corpsecrafter feat (+2 hit points/HD and +4 enhancement to str) and it was made in a desecrated alter (+2 profane bonus to attack and damage rolls, +2 hit points/HD)

19d12 + 76hp (38 from profane, 38 from corpsecrafter) for an average of 190 hps
Base AC 14 (+3 dex, +3 natural armor, -2 size), DR 5/bludgeoning
Str 43 (39 base + 4 enhancement from corpsecrafter), Dex 16 (14 base +2 from skeleton)
Base attack +25 (9 BAB +16 str +2 profane -2 size), +33 grapple (+8 size, +16 str, +9 BAB)
Full attack: 2 claws +25 (1d8 +18) and 2 slams +20 (1d8 +10)
Reach: 15', speed 50'

Other than AC I'd say the storm giant skeleton is superior to the monk in combat in most aspects and the giant's AC can be improved with armor.

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #233 on: June 27, 2011, 08:41:39 PM »
JaronK, honestly: you are not really comparing my level 6 and 7 monk builds focused on skills for comparison with an expert with the combat strength mindless CR 8 or even 9 monster, are you? Could you please STOP THESE DOUBLE STANDARDS? They do not help in this discussion at all. Thank you.

Then, please check out the cloud giant skeleton example in the SRD. The slams got replaced by claws and do not come on top. The wording in the attack section seems to suggest they retain the slams, but definitely no skeleton example sees the claws adding to no. of attacks.

- Giacomo

Are you arguing that a Monk of any given level can "only" be geared and build for skill/social use, or combat, but not both?
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JaronK

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #234 on: June 27, 2011, 09:25:25 PM »
Let's take a look at a storm giant skeleton, assuming the maker had the corpsecrafter feat (+2 hit points/HD and +4 enhancement to str) and it was made in a desecrated alter (+2 profane bonus to attack and damage rolls, +2 hit points/HD)

IIRC, the profane bonus to attack and damage rolls doesn't apply after it leaves the area.  And the Desecration Ring doesn't have a big range, so we probably shouldn't include those in the final stats.

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19d12 + 76hp (38 from profane, 38 from corpsecrafter) for an average of 190 hps
Base AC 14 (+3 dex, +3 natural armor, -2 size), DR 5/bludgeoning
Str 43 (39 base + 4 enhancement from corpsecrafter), Dex 16 (14 base +2 from skeleton)
Base attack +25 (9 BAB +16 str +2 profane -2 size), +33 grapple (+8 size, +16 str, +9 BAB)
Full attack: 2 claws +25 (1d8 +18) and 2 slams +20 (1d8 +10)
Reach: 15', speed 50'

Other than AC I'd say the storm giant skeleton is superior to the monk in combat in most aspects and the giant's AC can be improved with armor.

Note that it can also use weapons if it wants... the Giant that you likely killed should have come with a nice Composite Longbow for some ranged fire.  Also, it comes with a Greatsword, which isn't the best idea at all times but is better if you think it's going to run and charge a lot.  Also, you forgot the +4 Dex from Corpsecrafter, so his initiative, AC, and ref save should all be two higher.  Also, they come with their own Breastplate.

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JaronK, honestly: you are not really comparing my level 6 and 7 monk builds focused on skills for comparison with an expert with the combat strength mindless CR 8 or even 9 monster, are you? Could you please STOP THESE DOUBLE STANDARDS? They do not help in this discussion at all. Thank you.

Then, please check out the cloud giant skeleton example in the SRD. The slams got replaced by claws and do not come on top. The wording in the attack section seems to suggest they retain the slams, but definitely no skeleton example sees the claws adding to no. of attacks.

- Giacomo
« Last Edit: June 27, 2011, 09:26:58 PM by JaronK »

ImperatorK

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #235 on: June 28, 2011, 02:54:30 AM »
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So that's two primary attacks with the claws, and two secondary natural attacks with the slams.
Man could argue that slams need flesh to work. Could you find an official skeletal monster that has slams?
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Damien_Wilacoth

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #236 on: June 28, 2011, 03:13:42 AM »
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So that's two primary attacks with the claws, and two secondary natural attacks with the slams.
Man could argue that slams need flesh to work. Could you find an official skeletal monster that has slams?

In the Monster Manual, under the entry of Creating the Monster on page 297, it reads that a Slam or Tentacle is "any blunt attack that the creature might have (punches, constriction, slaps, and the like)."

It seems to me that flesh isn't exactly required for a skeleton to punch or slap somebody.

Just ask Ash.  :smirk

That being said, it's not an official skeletal monster, but it seems to offer fair proof that can be applied to his storm giant skeleton would indeed get the two slams.  Please keep in mind, after all, that WotC is not known for its shining reputation for having their official examples of the rules follow all the rules.

ImperatorK

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #237 on: June 28, 2011, 04:49:27 AM »
Zombies get slams, skeletons get claws. That might be a hint.
Are there monsters with slams and claws? ??? (I'm not saying one excludes the other, I'm just curious)
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Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

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Damien_Wilacoth

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #238 on: June 28, 2011, 05:50:36 AM »
Zombies get slams, skeletons get claws. That might be a hint.
Are there monsters with slams and claws? ??? (I'm not saying one excludes the other, I'm just curious)

True, it might have been a hint.  To read the rules and apply them literally everytime it makes sense to do so.  If you read the rules for skeletons, they basically tell you to keep all of the old attacks, except where it doesn't make sense for them to do so, such as in the example of the mind flayer losing their tentacle attacks.  If a bag of bones crashed into you, I'd say that was, in all technical sense of the word, a slam.

As for the second question, any monster with claw attacks that becomes a vampire gets them.  Same with a zombie.  Other than that, not much that I've seen, offhand.  Most creatures with claws of a smaller size tend to bite, not slam.  Creatures with claws of a bigger size tend to bite and tail slap, not slam.  Creatures with a natural slam attack are weird, usually being undead with a level draining effect of some sort (or giants with obscene strength modifiers).  Now, I'm fairly sure there's at least one exception to those rules (because it wouldn't be D&D without exceptions to the rules), but given that they seem to be general examples anyway, it seems fair enough to ignore the general and focus on the specifics.

Solo

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #239 on: June 28, 2011, 06:00:10 AM »
In essence, the question is: can a skeleton bitch slap people?

The answer, for those of you who are familiar with Geoff Peterson, is yes.

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