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nijineko

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Level Adjustment Theoretical Optimization Mini Handbook
« on: June 10, 2011, 04:50:25 AM »
This mini handbook is designed to showcase a theory I came up with when reviewing the rules in detail attempting to optimize a ghost telekinetic. It is a thought experiment and would be surprising if allowed to be used in a real game. One of my DMs would allow this, but he subscribes to the school of "Let-them-do-what-they-want-'cause-the-more-they-take-advantage-the-more-I-feel-justified-in-PUNISHING-them-MUWAHAHAHAHAH!!!" Thus, it is not recommended to be attempted in game, even with my DM.

As this is the min/max section, I present it for your use and enjoyment. Feedback is welcome. 

Section 1: The Rules

Reducing Level Adjustments[spoiler]
When a character with a level adjustment advances in experience, the level adjustment he started with becomes more and more of a burden. Eventually, the benefits of the creature type may come to be eclipsed by those of his class features, and the player may regret his choice of race. Under this variant system, the character can pay an XP cost at certain intervals to decrease the burden of his level adjustment.

For instance, a gnoll's level adjustment is +1. When a gnoll character gains his third class level (remember, the gnoll's 2 starting Hit Dice don't count), he can pay an XP cost to reduce his level adjustment to +0.

If the level adjustment is greater than +1, this process repeats until the creature's level adjustment reaches +0. Each time, use the creature's current level adjustment to determine the point at which the level adjustment can go down by 1. For example, a drow (level adjustment +2) may drop to level adjustment +1 after gaining her sixth class level, and then to +0 after gaining an additional three class levels.

Table: Reducing Level Adjustments gives the levels at which level adjustments are eligible to be reduced for starting level adjustments of +1 to +6. Creatures with a level adjustment of +7 or more retain their full normal level adjustment until reaching epic levels (21st level or higher), and thus aren't included on the table. However, you can follow the pattern described above to determine when such creatures' level adjustments can be decreased.

SL    @CL
1    3
2    6,9
3    9, 15, 18
4    12
5    15
6    18
[/spoiler]


Experience Point Cost[spoiler]
Each time a character's level adjustment is eligible to be reduced, the character may pay an XP cost to take advantage of the reduction. (Emphasis mine.)
[/spoiler]


Savage Progressions: Gaining a Template Midcampaign & General Rules for Template Classes[spoiler]
The following rules apply to the "class version" of any template.

    A character may take a level in a template class as long as the DM approves and the character has earned enough XP to gain a level.

    The DM may wish to require an appropriate ceremony, quest, ritual, or experience before allowing a character to gain levels in an inherited template class. This same option also applies if a character wants to gain levels in an acquired template class without the appropriate trigger (such as an attack by a wereboar to acquire the afflicted wereboar template).

    Template classes follow the normal rules for template acquisition according to creature type. For example, the wereboar template can be added only to a humanoid or giant. Thus, a half-dragon character (whose inherited template has already changed his type to dragon) could not take levels in the wereboar class.

    Unlike the regular template rules as given in the Monster Manual (see Adding More Than One Template, Monster Manual page 293), this variant rules system allows a character to gain levels in a desired inherited template class after gaining levels in an acquired template, if desired. (In effect, these rules turn all inherited templates into acquired templates that have special circumstances for acquisition later in a character's life.)

    The DM should disallow certain redundant combinations of monsters and templates. For example, it makes no sense for a hound archon to gain the celestial or half-celestial template, since it is already a kind of celestial.

    A character cannot take levels in a template class if she already has that template or has taken all the levels in that template class. For example, a natural wereboar (a character who already has "wereboar" as an inherited template) cannot take levels in the wereboar template class.

    Characters are not required to complete all the levels of a given template class in uninterrupted succession. For example, a character who takes a level of wereboar could then take a level of fighter and a level of rogue (or any other combination of other class levels) before taking another level of wereboar. A character must still take the first level of wereboar before taking the second, just as with a normal class.

    Each level in a template class increases the character's level adjustment by +1, just as would a level of any other character class.

    Template class levels can be lost due to any effect or circumstance that would normally cause a character to lose a level.

    Levels in a template class do not count when determining whether a character takes an XP penalty for multiclassing.

    In some cases, a certain monster ability presented in the Monster Manual for a given template is split over two or more class levels in a template class (often by limiting how often an ability can be used at the start). Alternatively, variant abilities may be introduced to build toward an ability that is too powerful for a lower-level character. In these situations, the template class features section explains how the ability works at each level. By the time a character has acquired all possible levels in a template class, the completed set of abilities relating to that particular function works exactly like the normal ability described in the Monster Manual.

    Example: In the vampire template class presented below, the template class has abilities called alternate form (lesser) and alternate form (greater). The description of the alternate form ability given in the class description explains that the vampire initially has access to only two of the vampire's normal alternate forms (bat and wolf) but will eventually be able to assume the other two forms (dire bat and dire wolf), as described in the Monster Manual.

    Example: In the vampire template class, the character slowly becomes more resistant to critical hits and sneak attacks via the fortification armor special ability. This ability thread culminates in immunity to those attack types once the creature finally gains the undead type. At that point, the fortification ability becomes redundant and can be ignored, and the vampire built with all levels of the template class works exactly like one built with the Monster Manual template.

    Unlike standard character classes (and the "monster classes" from Savage Species), most template classes do not increase Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, or skill points with level. They also do not affect when a character acquires feats, since feat acquisition is based on HD, not ECL. However, some of these aspects of the character can be affected indirectly by alterations in Hit Die type, ability score changes, special attacks or qualities, bonus feats, and so on.

(Emphasis mine.)
[/spoiler]
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nijineko

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Re: Level Adjustment Theoretical Optimization Mini Handbook
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2011, 04:51:09 AM »
Section Two: The Theory



Based on the rules highlighted above, the following summation can be drawn:

  • Qualifying leveled templates are gained the same as regular levels, by gaining enough xp to reach the next level.
  • Gaining a template level increases your LA, but most likely does not increase HD, BAB, saves, feats, or skill points.
  • If the given level of a template does not grant HD, then the LA can be bought off at the appropriate point.
  • There is no restriction on when a template level can be taken, so long as any prerequisites (for inherited templates converted to leveled templates by these rules) are met. Templates that change type might invalidate taking other templates that have type-based entry requirements.
  • Leveled templates must be taken in order from lowest to highest. (ie: 1st level of template, then 2nd level of template, then 3rd....)
  • There is no requirement that all levels of a leveled template must be taken.
  • The DM is supposed to veto anything that "does not make sense". The example given is taking a template that grants a type the character already possesses. (Taken to the logical conclusion, this rule would most likely invalidate the optimization concept in 99.9% of games out there.)
  • The only rule regulating when the LA must be bought off is that when the character reaches the level that puts them at a character level to LA ratio of 3:1, that one level of the LA must immediately be bought off by spending (ECL-1)*1000 in xp.
  • Furthermore, in the case where the starting LA is greater than 1, the text and table imply that the next LA buyoff is calculated from the starting point of the last LA buyoff. The best example of this is the drow example in the text, and the LA +3 line in the table.

    The drow has an LA +2, so, 2*3 = 6, thus the first LA level you can buy off is at 6th level. The remaining LA +1 requires an additional 1*3 = 3 class levels before it can be bought off.

    For the LA +3 line entry on the table: LA 3*3 = 9th level, LA 2*3 = another 6 levels or at 15th level, and LA 1*3 = another 3 levels or at 18th level. See the last paragraph in this post for a suggestion of combining this implied rule with the handbook concept of taking only one level adjustment at a time.

    If this implied rule is taken as applicable to all LA buy-off, then a given character will be limited to 6 template levels taken one at a time in a 20 level build. Furthermore, the level at which the LA is gained, would become the starting point for counting levels for purposes of buy-off. See last paragraph this post for details.



According to these rules as written, one can start off as a 1st level character, take a single template level at 2nd level, and take two more character levels. The character has an ECL of 4, the xp of a 4th level character (6000), 3 class levels and +1 LA. According to the rules, one must now immediately buy off the +1 LA buy spending [ECL(4)-1=3]*1000 = 3000xp. This drops the character to 3000xp, the minimum needed for 3rd level, and removes the +1 LA.

The character is now a 3rd level character with 3000xp plus the abilities of the 1st level of the template. The rest of the party is now 4th level and has 6000xp.

The party continues the campaign (and for the purposes of simplicity) manages to gain another 3000xp. This places the party at 9000xp, and the example character at 6000xp. The player opts to add the second level of the template as per the gaining templates midcampaign rules. The template level adds +1 LA for a total of three character levels, one LA, and a total ECL of 4 at 6000xp.

Now, according to the buy-off rules, the character, being at a 3:1 ratio of character level to LA, must immediately spend (ECL-1)*1000 in xp, which again works out to 3000xp. This drops the character back to 3rd level, with a total of 3000xp. The character now has three class levels, no LA, and the abilities of two template levels.

From this point the potential progression is easily visible. In essence, each template level is costing 3000xp, so long as no more than one level is taken at a time, and a template level is taken every time the character levels up.

Assuming a 20th level party, and a flat xp progression (a DM who only grants evenly split up xp regardless of character level), the rest of the party will have a minimum of 190,000xp. Even if the example character takes 6 template levels as specified above for a total effective cost of 18,000xp behind the rest of the party, the character will have a total of 172,000xp, enough for 19th level, plus the abilities of 6 levels worth of templates.

If the DM uses the xp charts as written, then the player must be certain that the character never falls behind more than 8 levels calculated from the average party level at any given time as this would cause the character to "fall off" the xp chart. It could be argued RAW that they cannot gain xp for encounters that exceed the character level by more than 8.


One possible method of compromising with the DM regarding buying extra template levels cheaply, would be to only take +1 LA every three levels. In other words, take three class levels, then take a +1 LA. Buy off the LA. Take another class three levels and take another +1 LA. Buy off the LA. Repeat.
This will cause the LA to be more costly each time you take it, but will still allow you to fit a +1 LA at levels 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18, for a total of 6 template levels bought off in a 20 level build.
This would cost 3000xp the first time, 6000xp the second time, 9000xp the third time, and so forth. (Idea courtesy of Widow. Thank you.)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2011, 04:31:41 AM by nijineko »
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nijineko

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Re: Level Adjustment Theoretical Optimization Mini Handbook
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2011, 04:51:34 AM »
Section Three: Sample Build



To be added.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2011, 03:53:50 PM by nijineko »
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Re: Level Adjustment Theoretical Optimization Mini Handbook
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2011, 04:58:15 AM »
Section Five: Miscellaneous



Synergy Levels

Legacy Champion: Levels in this prestige can advance a template that are using the "Gaining Templates Midcampaign" rules since templates count as class levels for purposes of level gaining. This has obvious benefits as it effectively adds HD, BAB, saves, skills, and feat progressions to templates that frequently do not grant such.

Uncanny Trickster: Same benefits as Legacy Champion.

Master of the Unseen Hand: Notable for dramatically boosting telekinesis-granting templates, such as Ghost.




Synergy Races and Templates

Customized Half-fiend template rules: These rules allow one to customize which fiend one gains the half template from, thereby adjusting stats and abilities accordingly. Using these rules as guidelines, one can postulate similar configurations for celestials as well.




Synergy Feats

Item Familiar: By linking to an item magically and it becoming a familiar to you, you can various benefits. One of these benefits is a bonus to awarded xp, which can be used to accelerate the recovery of xp spent in buying off levels.

There are a number of monstrous feats which can improve save DCs of various template granted abilities. To be added.




Synergy Items

Orange Ioun Stone: For templates that grant casting abilities with a specified caster level, this item can boost said caster level.

Memento Magica: For templates that grant x/day type spell-like abilities, a memento magica of the appropriate level could be considered to restore a single use of said ability.




Synergy Spells and Powers

To be added.



[/Handbook]
« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 02:49:29 AM by nijineko »
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Widow

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Re: Level Adjustment Theoretical Optimization Mini Handbook
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2011, 10:46:54 PM »
I am sure at some point you are going to mention the idea of taking 1 level of the template class every 3 levels so you can completely buy-off even large template class LA.  For games were buy-off is not available, advancing a template class with Uncanny Trickster or Legacy Champion can also be quite fun.  It might cost you an extra level, but most of your levels grant HD, feats, skill points, etc.

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Re: Level Adjustment Theoretical Optimization Mini Handbook
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2011, 01:23:53 AM »
 Actually, I think this may be more akin to buying off template class levels so they never existed, effectively gestaulting yourself. At least, that's what I'm gathering from the preliminary bold sections.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
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nijineko

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Re: Level Adjustment Theoretical Optimization Mini Handbook
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2011, 03:20:54 PM »
right you are, mcpoyo.

and thank you for the mention of legacy champion and uncanny trickster, i will certainly add those options to the misc. section. =D furthermore, the 1 LA every 3 levels is not a bad idea... call it a compromise between dm and player. i had thought of that too, though doing that would cost more xp over all. which might go a ways towards placating a dm into allowing more template levels than could be bought off as per the LA chart in UA.


any other suggestions are welcome.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2011, 03:55:41 PM by nijineko »
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Re: Level Adjustment Theoretical Optimization Mini Handbook
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2011, 05:50:51 PM »

Synergy Levels

Legacy Champion: Levels in this prestige can advance a template that are using the "Gaining Templates Midcampaign" rules since templates count as class levels for purposes of level gaining. This has obvious benefits as it effectively adds HD, BAB, saves, skills, and feat progressions to templates that frequently do not grant such.

Uncanny Trickster: Same benefits as Legacy Champion.


 :clap ... very niice. I like it.


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The "experience is a river" bit for LA works ok with LA+1,
and is do-able with LA+2. The math is surprisingly simple.
Just a string of (2/3)^X catch-up on the exp.
I'll post a mini chart later.

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Re: Level Adjustment Theoretical Optimization Mini Handbook
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2011, 08:01:20 AM »
Legacy Champion - where is that from? Consolidated list says "WL" but don't have a WL listed...

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Re: Level Adjustment Theoretical Optimization Mini Handbook
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2011, 10:02:57 AM »
Legacy Champion - where is that from? Consolidated list says "WL" but don't have a WL listed...

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Re: Level Adjustment Theoretical Optimization Mini Handbook
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2011, 08:09:50 PM »
I am sure at some point you are going to mention the idea of taking 1 level of the template class every 3 levels so you can completely buy-off even large template class LA.  For games were buy-off is not available, advancing a template class with Uncanny Trickster or Legacy Champion can also be quite fun.  It might cost you an extra level, but most of your levels grant HD, feats, skill points, etc.

Actually, I think this may be more akin to buying off template class levels so they never existed, effectively gestaulting yourself. At least, that's what I'm gathering from the preliminary bold sections.

I thought that was exactly what I offered with taking 1 LA class level every 3 levels to buy it off completely, plus a no buy-off trick to boot.

You might not be able to get away with this, but there is also the custom half-fiends article found below.  It might let you tailor your ability scores to your needs if your DM lets you mix those rules with the template level break down.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630x&page=3

Another possible feat would be the ever popular item familar.  If you except the usual dangers of lossing the item, the xp bonus it gives you is only based on your initial xp when you first take it.  The bonus will be uneffected by lowering your xp total later, although techniquely you will be spending those bonus points.  Therefor you should be able to hit each buy-off point quicker and maximize your extra XP for being lower level.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm

One more, but this one is total cheese and will instantly result in DM foaming of the mouth (I have seen it and it is not pretty... in the RPG Rifts I figured out how to start with a free Hellfire fortress).  The thought bottle from complete arcane can save you xp total for the cost of 500xp.  So save you xp total at or near the point of level buy off.  Buy off level and follow it up with an xp restore.  No player should ever touch a thought bottle, but it should be included for completeness.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 08:12:58 PM by Widow »

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Re: Level Adjustment Theoretical Optimization Mini Handbook
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2011, 06:48:05 AM »
Legacy Champion - where is that from? Consolidated list says "WL" but don't have a WL listed...

Weapons of Legacy.

- Thanks - never heard about it.
But now i know what to look for

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Re: Level Adjustment Theoretical Optimization Mini Handbook
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2011, 02:09:58 AM »
I am sure at some point you are going to mention the idea of taking 1 level of the template class every 3 levels so you can completely buy-off even large template class LA.  For games were buy-off is not available, advancing a template class with Uncanny Trickster or Legacy Champion can also be quite fun.  It might cost you an extra level, but most of your levels grant HD, feats, skill points, etc.

Actually, I think this may be more akin to buying off template class levels so they never existed, effectively gestaulting yourself. At least, that's what I'm gathering from the preliminary bold sections.

I thought that was exactly what I offered with taking 1 LA class level every 3 levels to buy it off completely, plus a no buy-off trick to boot.

yours is more sane, and slightly higher possibility to be allowed, plus it follows the implied (but not stated) part about calculating the next buy off level point from the previous buy off point.

my first suggestion is a more rinse and repeat bit keeping the character at the lower levels while stacking on lots of template abilities.

Quote
You might not be able to get away with this, but there is also the custom half-fiends article found below.  It might let you tailor your ability scores to your needs if your DM lets you mix those rules with the template level break down.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630x&page=3

useful. i don't recall if they did a matching one for celestials. in any case the guidelines are decent enough (at casual glance) to model any specific outsider with some negotiation.

Quote
Another possible feat would be the ever popular item familar.  If you except the usual dangers of lossing the item, the xp bonus it gives you is only based on your initial xp when you first take it.  The bonus will be uneffected by lowering your xp total later, although techniquely you will be spending those bonus points.  Therefor you should be able to hit each buy-off point quicker and maximize your extra XP for being lower level.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm

thank you. quite so.

Quote
One more, but this one is total cheese and will instantly result in DM foaming of the mouth (I have seen it and it is not pretty... in the RPG Rifts I figured out how to start with a free Hellfire fortress).  The thought bottle from complete arcane can save you xp total for the cost of 500xp.  So save you xp total at or near the point of level buy off.  Buy off level and follow it up with an xp restore.  No player should ever touch a thought bottle, but it should be included for completeness.

this one will not work at all, as the xp buy off rules explicitly state that the xp spent must be voluntary and cannot be recovered in any way.
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Widow

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Re: Level Adjustment Theoretical Optimization Mini Handbook
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2011, 12:30:41 AM »
Quote
One more, but this one is total cheese and will instantly result in DM foaming of the mouth (I have seen it and it is not pretty... in the RPG Rifts I figured out how to start with a free Hellfire fortress).  The thought bottle from complete arcane can save you xp total for the cost of 500xp.  So save you xp total at or near the point of level buy off.  Buy off level and follow it up with an xp restore.  No player should ever touch a thought bottle, but it should be included for completeness.

this one will not work at all, as the xp buy off rules explicitly state that the xp spent must be voluntary and cannot be recovered in any way.

I understand, but this specifically lets you recover xp that normally cannot be recovered.  I would not allow it in my game, but I think it would work by RAW.

nijineko

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Re: Level Adjustment Theoretical Optimization Mini Handbook
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2011, 02:07:08 AM »
what is the exact phraseology?
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Re: Level Adjustment Theoretical Optimization Mini Handbook
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2011, 06:01:53 PM »
Oh yeah ... this was done once late on the old TO board.


(-2) ... 3 hd or levels with a +1 LA, and a Thought Bottle
(-1) ... Reach level 4 + 500exp ... maybe you got a good combat or hadn't time to train (down time) just yet
(0) ... Put exp into Thought Bottle
(1) ... Now have exactly level 4 exp
(2) ... Buy-off the +1 LA
(3) ... Now have exactly level 3 exp
(4) ... Acquire new +1 LA template
(5) ... Regain exp from Thought Bottle
(6) ... repeat from step 1

variant (4a) ... use higher stuff Wish+Spellcraft from Savage Species
to gain the +1 LA from racial classes that have that.
You normally couldn't acquire these, but that's what the wish can do.
Very TO.

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Re: Level Adjustment Theoretical Optimization Mini Handbook
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2011, 09:30:53 PM »
what is the exact phraseology?

Not sure if this is legal, but here is the quote:

Quote

Looks to me like it would work, but again it would not be allowed in my game.  Although I would be tempted to use with an artificer and go on a crafting binge.

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Re: Level Adjustment Theoretical Optimization Mini Handbook
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2011, 03:24:34 AM »
no, i have to disagree. i do not feel that it would work with the wording as stated. while the thought bottle is more efficacious than restoration, i do not think that phraseology is strong enough to counter something phrased as "xp cannot be restored by any means".
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Re: Level Adjustment Theoretical Optimization Mini Handbook
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2011, 12:44:19 PM »
no, i have to disagree. i do not feel that it would work with the wording as stated. while the thought bottle is more efficacious than restoration, i do not think that phraseology is strong enough to counter something phrased as "xp cannot be restored by any means".

Raise Dead wording from the SRD:

Quote
This level/HD loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means.

Seems like similar wording.  The thought bottle can restore your xp total even after being hit with a non-repairable loss in xp.  The only thing the thought bottle does not do is counter temporary level loss from magic items (and persumably from spells that are non-permament), which does not actually effect your xp total.  Again I don't like it, even for overcoming death xp loss.