How do these factors affect a class's tier?

[Sinfire Titan]

Is that the badge of honor around here?

It isn't difficult to piss off Roland and Co. over there.

A commoner with a Warblades maneuver progression?

Tier 5. BAB actually really matters for the 5 Disciplines a Warblade gets, and they enjoy being able to max out Concentration.

A Fighter with a Full body

Tier 4 at most, assuming the Skill list is good.

A Warmage with a Full body

Probably up half a Tier, since BAB and Skill Points don't do as much for a Warmage buff-wise.

A Bard with a commoner body

Still Tier 3, but very much a Glass Cannon.

An unarmed sword sage with the commoner body

As with the Warblade, Tier 5.

A Duskblade with a commoner body

Tier 5. Duskblades are combat-oriented, and would not survive that kind of damage because their spell list is very limited.

An Adept with a Full Body

Tier 4, but it's close to Tier 3 at that point.

A Divine Mind with a Full bab

This actually exists.

A rogue with 2 skill points a level

Tier 5.

A rogue with commoner body + Rogue weapon list

Tier 6. You just went from useful in combat to dead last. Sneak Attack became meaningless for you, you lost out on all of those skills, and you have bare minimum HP.

Wild shape variant ranger with a Warriors body

So you lose out on Skill Points? That's it? Still Tier 3, but losing those skills left a noticeable scratch in the paint.

Psychic Warrior with the Wizards  body

Same thing with the Duskblade: What you lost is what made the class combat-viable.

Healer with a Full Body and no code of conduct

The Spell List still wins out. It basically becomes a Paladin with 8+Int Skills and a decent number of healing spells.




Altering the body of the class has some impact on the Tier 3's and under, and the impact becomes more noticeable the lower you get. No class below Tier 2 enjoys having the Commoner's chasis, as it makes surviving much more WBL-oriented. THis turns the low levels into even bigger Rocket Tag.

[X-Codes]

A Warmage with a Full body

Probably up half a Tier, since BAB and Skill Points don't do as much for a Warmage buff-wise.

I don't think it moves even that much.  I'd still peg the Warmage at Tier 4.

A Bard with a commoner body

Still Tier 3, but very much a Glass Cannon.

I disagree, low Tier 4.  The bard, as written, is very much a capable fighter (just a step behind the Cleric, honestly), and it's broad skill selection allows it to fulfill a party support role much easier.  Going to low BAB and losing 4 skill points per level makes it a poor man's Beguiler.

An Adept with a Full Body

Tier 4, but it's close to Tier 3 at that point.

I would say it is Tier 3.  Afterall, it's one class feature is one hell of a class feature: Summon Familiar.  That feature gets boosted considerably by this upgrade as well.  Sure, the Adept's casting is slightly less spectacular than a Bard's, but it's practically bringing another character to the party with that familiar.

A Divine Mind with a Full bab

This actually exists.

Tier 4.  It would actually be able to step into the same role as a Psychic Warrior, but the better power progression a Psychic Warrior gets makes it much more versatile by itself and through improved use of the Expanded Knowledge feat.

A rogue with 2 skill points a level

Tier 5.

Tier 6.  Sneak Attack alone does not make a class.

Wild shape variant ranger with a Warriors body

So you lose out on Skill Points? That's it? Still Tier 3, but losing those skills left a noticeable scratch in the paint.

I would say that both the Wildshape Ranger and Wildshape Ranger sans skills are Tier 4.  Unlike the Monk, the Ranger doesn't gain much from Wild Shape; it only needs a serious investment in either Strength *or* Dexterity, and doesn't require nearly as much of an investment in Wisdom as the Monk does.  Since it's MAD is significantly lower, it gains significantly less.

Healer with a Full Body and no code of conduct

The Spell List still wins out. It basically becomes a Paladin with 8+Int Skills and a decent number of healing spells.

Tier 3, and capable of being played in Tier 2 games.  Would be Tier 2 if it were a spontaneous-and-knows-full-list class and didn't have split casting attributes by virtue of the domain shenanigans open to Divine casters.

Altering the body of the class has some impact on the Tier 3's and under, and the impact becomes more noticeable the lower you get. No class below Tier 2 enjoys having the Commoner's chasis, as it makes surviving much more WBL-oriented. THis turns the low levels into even bigger Rocket Tag.

Very true for combat classes, but I don't think the Warlock would mind much if it was given the Wizard chassis.

[LordBlades]

A rogue with 2 skill points a level

Tier 5.

Tier 6.  Sneak Attack alone does not make a class.

Don;t forget Trapfinding. Even with 2 sp/level and some Int (14, 12 if human) you can still afford Search, Disable Device Hide and Move silently, making yourself a passable scout. I think the rogue still deserves a  tier 5.

[X-Codes]

Trapfinding is, basically, a feat, and not a particularly good one.  Trap Sense is only as good as the ACF you can trade it for.  Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, and Improved UD are useful, but Improved UD comes very late and Evasion can be gotten via an item or a Monk dip (which is substantially better than a Rogue dip when the latter only bags 2+int skill points).  What's left are rogue abilities, which are probably on-par with the CW Samurai's Staredown abilities.

So yes, better than a CW Samurai, but still really, really bad.

[JaronK]

Don;t forget Trapfinding. Even with 2 sp/level and some Int (14, 12 if human) you can still afford Search, Disable Device Hide and Move silently, making yourself a passable scout. I think the rogue still deserves a  tier 5.

Compare that Rogue to a Ninja, I don't think it works.  I'd say a T6. 

JaronK

[LordBlades]

Don;t forget Trapfinding. Even with 2 sp/level and some Int (14, 12 if human) you can still afford Search, Disable Device Hide and Move silently, making yourself a passable scout. I think the rogue still deserves a  tier 5.

Compare that Rogue to a Ninja, I don't think it works.  I'd say a T6.  

JaronK

Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well

That's from the tier list thread. Doesn't a rogue with hide, move silently, search and disable device qualify as 'capable of scouting, but not necessarily all that well' ?

It is significantly worse than a ninja though, but not to warrior or commoner level IMHO.

[Sinfire Titan]

Don;t forget Trapfinding. Even with 2 sp/level and some Int (14, 12 if human) you can still afford Search, Disable Device Hide and Move silently, making yourself a passable scout. I think the rogue still deserves a  tier 5.

Compare that Rogue to a Ninja, I don't think it works.  I'd say a T6.  

JaronK

Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well

That's from the tier list thread. Doesn't a rogue with hide, move silently, search and disable device qualify as 'capable of scouting, but not necessarily all that well' ?

It is significantly worse than a ninja though, but not to warrior or commoner level IMHO.

Spot and Listen...

[Sir Giacomo]

Abstract from that tier thing for a moment and just ask yourself: what spells duplicates, say, hide, or sleight of hand, or UMD, or spot? And at what levels? And with how much time to activate? And with what potential disadvantages/side effects?

hide = Invisibility
sleight of hand = Mage hand
UMD, why would you want to mimic UMD with a spell when you can just cast the spell you want to without using UMD in the first place?
Spot: True seeing or divine Guidance can be used.

Most of the buffs in the game take a standard action. Does this make the extra actions granted by time stop irrelevant?

Not really, because you can use those extra actions to buff you, you can't use the extra attacks from full BAB to make more maneuvers.

Hide -> (Improved) Invisibility
Sleight of Hand -> Mage Hand/Telekinesis, possibly while invisible
UMD -> Actually casting the spell you're trying to get through UMD
Spot -> True Seeing does a lot of what you'd be using spot for, and (Greater) Prying Eyes can help too. Outside of core, one could go for (Greater) Blindsight.

Hide vs Invsibility: guess which lasts longer? And also, invisbility can be counted with more methods (true seeing and see invisibility do not help vs hide).
Sleight of hand vs mage hand/telekinesis: mage hand only works on unattended objects and telekinesis allows a will save (the sleight of hand does not allow any  save).
Spot: true seeing only extends to 120 ft and cannot detect someone using the hide skill. Prying eyes are OK, but have a lower spot than a maxed spot skill, and the true seeing version is similarly hindered beyond 120ft. Similarly blindsight is good or even better, but with its range does not completely emulate spot.
UMD: allows not only to cast spells from one list, but from all lists. And can be used to activate items.

Ah, and Mixster: more attacks due to BAB can be used for more actions (like trip, disarm, etc.).

-   Giacomo

[BlackAngelika]

mage hand only works on unattended objects

And doesn't work on magic items.

[Tshern]

Range of 120 feet is quite a bit. A character gets a -12 penalty to spot checks from that distance too, which makes it pretty much impossible to see someone hiding if the hider has actually bothered to put some effort towards his skill.

[Sinfire Titan]

Hide vs Invsibility: guess which lasts longer? And also, invisbility can be counted with more methods (true seeing and see invisibility do not help vs hide).

Blindsense isn't as prevalent as we make it out to be, and the main source of it (Dragons, with 60 different encounter levels) has a weakness: A spell specifically designed to hide from them.

Sleight of hand vs mage hand/telekinesis: mage hand only works on unattended objects and telekinesis allows a will save (the sleight of hand does not allow any  save).

Telekinesis works at range, Sleight of Hand doesn't. The Save DC can be pumped, and TK can be used on multiple items at the same time.

Spot: true seeing only extends to 120 ft and cannot detect someone using the hide skill. Prying eyes are OK, but have a lower spot than a maxed spot skill, and the true seeing version is similarly hindered beyond 120ft. Similarly blindsight is good or even better, but with its range does not completely emulate spot.

How many creatures have innate True Seeing? And how many are able to cast the spell? Off the top of my head, only Celestials are able to cast it, and I can't think of any creatures with it innately.

UMD: allows not only to cast spells from one list, but from all lists. And can be used to activate items.

And works best when you have it as a class skill. Not when you are a Monk.

[snakeman830]

How many creatures have innate True Seeing? And how many are able to cast the spell? Off the top of my head, only Celestials are able to cast it, and I can't think of any creatures with it innately.

Balors and Malriths do, but since they're CR 20 and 17 respectivly...

[Tshern]

Elemental weirds, the CO favourites...

[BlackAngelika]

And Erynies, CR 8 devils.

[Sinfire Titan]

Yeah, True Seeing isn't as ubiquitous as we make it out to be. There's a few magic items that grant it, but those are either expensive as hell or only work for a limited amount of time.

[X-Codes]

Yeah, True Seeing isn't as ubiquitous as we make it out to be. There's a few magic items that grant it, but those are either expensive as hell or only work for a limited amount of time.

Which is the general problem with True Seeing, it's duration is just as short as Invisibility's.  By the way, Invisibility (and Greater) can be cast as a personal-range spell, making it persistable.  The best method for negating these is See Invisibility, which is only 10 min/level.  Without CL boosting (probably of the Arcane variety, it's only a Bard or Sor/Wiz spell) and an Extend rod, it's just not going to be up long enough to matter unless you persist it (again, relatively difficult since it's stuck on Arcane lists).

Hide vs Invsibility: guess which lasts longer? And also, invisbility can be counted with more methods (true seeing and see invisibility do not help vs hide).
Sleight of hand vs mage hand/telekinesis: mage hand only works on unattended objects and telekinesis allows a will save (the sleight of hand does not allow any  save).
Spot: true seeing only extends to 120 ft and cannot detect someone using the hide skill. Prying eyes are OK, but have a lower spot than a maxed spot skill, and the true seeing version is similarly hindered beyond 120ft. Similarly blindsight is good or even better, but with its range does not completely emulate spot.
UMD: allows not only to cast spells from one list, but from all lists. And can be used to activate items.

Ah, and Mixster: more attacks due to BAB can be used for more actions (like trip, disarm, etc.).

Invisibility is persistable, Darkstalker helps people casting Invisibility just like it helps people using Hide, and True Seeing is very, very rare in long enough durations to matter.

Telekinesis's save entry is suffixed by a "see text," and reading the spell description should tell you that even magic items should be laughably easy to manipulate with Telekinesis (their save modifier is 2 + 1/2 CL, and magic items tend to have very low CLs).

Spot: Only important in an open, above-ground environment.  90% of the time you're not going to be able to see normally beyond 120' anyway.

UMD: Expensive as hell when you get past 2nd- or 3rd-level spells.

Stop pretending to know something about the game.

[Sinfire Titan]

Yeah, True Seeing isn't as ubiquitous as we make it out to be. There's a few magic items that grant it, but those are either expensive as hell or only work for a limited amount of time.

Which is the general problem with True Seeing, it's duration is just as short as Invisibility's.  By the way, Invisibility (and Greater) can be cast as a personal-range spell, making it persistable.  The best method for negating these is See Invisibility, which is only 10 min/level.  Without CL boosting (probably of the Arcane variety, it's only a Bard or Sor/Wiz spell) and an Extend rod, it's just not going to be up long enough to matter unless you persist it (again, relatively difficult since it's stuck on Arcane lists).

IIRC, the SC has a domain with True Seeing.

[X-Codes]

Yeah, True Seeing isn't as ubiquitous as we make it out to be. There's a few magic items that grant it, but those are either expensive as hell or only work for a limited amount of time.

Which is the general problem with True Seeing, it's duration is just as short as Invisibility's.  By the way, Invisibility (and Greater) can be cast as a personal-range spell, making it persistable.  The best method for negating these is See Invisibility, which is only 10 min/level.  Without CL boosting (probably of the Arcane variety, it's only a Bard or Sor/Wiz spell) and an Extend rod, it's just not going to be up long enough to matter unless you persist it (again, relatively difficult since it's stuck on Arcane lists).

True Seeing is on the Cleric list, but it's touch range with a duration of 1 minute per level.  See Invisibility is at least do-able with a duration of 10 minutes/level, but will need CL pumping and an Extend Rod to last all day.
IIRC, the SC has a domain with True Seeing.

[lans]

One more
A class that gets 24hp/level, all skills at level+3, all proficiencies, 5/4ths attack bonus, +1/ level on saves?

[Gavinfoxx]

One more
A class that gets 24hp/level, all skills at level+3, all proficiencies, 5/4ths attack bonus, +1/ level on saves?

That's weird. Why not just say something like "A class that gets d12 hit dice, toughness and open minded as a bonus feat at every level, has 10+int skill points at first level and 8+int skill points every level after, and gets iron will, great fortitude, and lightning reflexes, track and trapfinding at level 1, and also gets all strong saves, all skills as class skills, and full BAB, simple and martial proficiency, and get six floating exotic proficiencies -- to choose on armor, weapons, shields or whatever -- at any time, which they can switch out daily if they so choose."