Author Topic: The Sagitteer (Ranged Base Class, Inspired by the Battlelord, HELP!)  (Read 7505 times)

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bkdubs123

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The Sagitteer
VERY MUCH A WORK IN PROGRESS. Though all 20 levels are filled out the class is in dire need of criticism. I'm pretty happy with levels 1-10 so far, but I still have a lot of work ahead of me, and even those levels could stand to be tweaked and/or massively edited. Amechra, feel free to work on your own version, as I'm sure we both have very different ideas of what a ranged attacker should be doing. For reference, here's the LINK for the Battlelord.

MY NOTES:

1) A Ranged attacker's job is not to take down big brutes and thus it doesn't need as much of a damage boost (though it could still use a more modest one).

2) A Ranged attacker's job is, in it's most simplistic form, to never miss, and beyond that, to take down targets that would ordinarily be difficult to hit.

3) Even at low levels monsters whose job it should be for the ranged attacker to take down have powerful defensive at-will spell-likes such as Blink and Greater Teleport and shapechanging abilities. A ranged attacker should not be fooled by illusions and needs a way to strike between dimensions (a scaling extraordinary ability based on Spot checks would be nice I think).

4) A Ranged attacker should, in theory, be based on single accurate/lethal shots rather than a flurry hoping for crits.

5) Position, speed, and terrain are all important to a ranged attacker.

6) A fall back melee plan, similar to the Monk's unarmed damage progression, wouldn't be out of place.


Alignment: Any
HD: 1d8

LevelBABFortRefWillSpecial
Unarmed Strike
Speed Bonus
1st+1+0+2+2Agile Finesse, Astrological Aim
1d6
+10ft
2nd+2+0+3+3AC Bonus, Spatial Awareness
1d6
+10ft
3rd+3+1+3+3Greater Finesse
1d6
+20ft
4th+4+1+4+4Stargazer, Star's Grace +1
1d6
+20ft
5th+5+1+4+4Cometfall
1d8
+20ft
6th+6/+1+2+5+5Counter Charge
1d8
+30ft
7th+7/+2+2+5+5Saturnine Sway
1d8
+30ft
8th+8/+3+2+6+6Ace in the Hole, Star's Grace +2
1d8
+30ft
9th+9/+4+3+6+6Astrological Answers
2d6
+40ft
10th+10/+5+3+7+7Hide in Plain Sight
2d6
+40ft
11th+11/+6/+1+3+7+7Coronal Strike
2d6
+40ft
12th+12/+7/+2+4+8+8Starseeker, Star's Grace +3
2d6
+50ft
13th+13/+8/+3+4+8+8Improved Stargazer
2d8
+50ft
14th+14/+9/+4+4+9+9Celestial Phase
2d8
+50ft
15th+15/+10/+5+5+9+9Astrological Revelation
2d8
+60ft
16th+16/+11/+6/+1+5+10+10Mercurial Haste, Star's Grace +4
2d8
+60ft
17th+17/+12/+7/+2+5+10+10Meteor Shower
2d10
+60ft
18th+18/+13/+8/+3+6+11+11Greater Stargazer
2d10
+70ft
19th+19/+14/+9/+4+6+11+11Cosmic Awareness
2d10
+70ft
20th+20/+15/+10/+5+6+12+12Seraphic Gate, Star's Grace +5
2d10
+70ft


Class Skills (6+Int): Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (The Planes), Listen, Move Silently, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble, and Use Rope.

Weapons and Armor Proficiency: A Sagitteer is proficient with all simple weapons, and all martial thrown or ranged weapons. A Sagitteer is proficient with light armor but not with shields.

Agile Finesse (Ex): A Sagitteer gains Improved Unarmed Strike and Weapon Finesse as bonus feats without needing to meet their prerequisites. He also gains a boost to his Unarmed Strike damage and to all his speeds as shown in the table above.

Astrological Aim (Su): A 1st level Sagitteer gains the benefits of the Precise Shot and Wild Talent feats. While Psionically Focused he ignore the distraction penalty to Spot checks and an amount of distance penalty equal to -2/class level.

Further, once per day per point of his Wisdom modifier, he may expend his Psionic Focus in order to reroll a single ranged attack roll. If he does, he can ignore cover or concealment effects if their caster level is equal to or lower than his Sagitteer level. Effects with no listed caster level use the HD of the source. If the source of the cover or concealment isn't magical effect (such as a tower shield or fog), he ignores it outright.

AC Bonus: Starting at 2nd level, a Sagitteer adds his Wisdom modifier to his AC as long as he wears light or no armor. If he wears no armor he adds an additional +1 bonus per 4 class levels. These bonuses to AC apply to his touch and flat-footed AC, but do not apply while he is Helpless, Stunned, or Unconscious.

Spatial Awareness (Su): At 2nd level a Sagitteer gains the benefits of the Quick Reconnoiter (CAdv), Dodge, and Elusive Target (CW) feats without needing to meet their prerequisites. He loses these benefits if he has fewer Sagitteer levels than levels of any other class.

Greater Finesse (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a Sagitteer adds his Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with any thrown, ranged, or finesseable melee weapon. In the case of thrown and finesseable melee weapons his Dexterity modifier is added in place of his Strength modifier, not in addition to.

Stargazer (Su): Starting at 4th level, while Psionically Focused a Sagitteer cannot be Blinded, and is immune to all Gaze attacks.

Whenever he makes a Concentration check to gain his Psionic Focus, he may also cast Anticipate Teleportation if the check is successful, except that he is always made aware of teleportation within the area regardless of the recipient and it's duration is based on how long he maintains his Psionic Focus. If he has a means of gaining Psionic Focus without a Concentration check, this ability can be used as part of that ability.

Furthermore, he may expend his Psionic Focus to gain, for 1 round and within 60ft, the ability to perceive and interact with (see: attack) creatures on a coexisting plane (such as the Ethereal Plane or the Plane of Shadow) and/or creatures within an extradimensional space.

Star's Grace (Su): Starting at 4th level, a Sagitteer's attacks gain a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls and are considered magical. His weapons also benefit from the Ghost Touch property. This enhancement bonus improves by +1 every four levels thereafter.

Cometfall (Ex): At 5th level a Sagitteer gains Far Shot as a bonus feat without needing to meet the prerequisites. Furthermore, as a standard action he may make a "Cometfall" attack making a single ranged attack. As part of this attack he may make a DC 15 Spot check. If the check succeeds he ignores the penalties for attacking up to 1 range increment past his weapon's normal range (as increased by the Far Shot feat). For every 5 points he beats the check he ignores the penalties of an additional range increment.

Making a Cometfall attack always provokes attacks of opportunity and deals extra damage equal to +1d6 for every 10ft from which the attack "falls" above its target (maximum 20d6), and +1d6 per range increment of the attack (maximum 1d6/two class levels).

A Cometfall attack made at least one range increment beyond the first is incredibly difficult to deflect or otherwise turn aside. Cometfall is considered a siege weapon attack for the purposes of attacking through wind effects (attacking through even Severe Wind at no penalty).

A creature may not use Deflect Arrows, Block Arrow or similar abilities to deflect a Cometfall unless it succeeds on an opposed attack roll.

The extra damage added by Cometfall is not precision based in nature, but rather is added as a result of calculated momentum. All creatures, including ones immune to critical hits and sneak attack, are vulnerable to the extra damage from Cometfall.

Counter Charge (Ex): Starting at 6th level, as an immediate action when a creature charges the Sagitteer he may initiate an opposed Dexterity check with the charging creature. If you are smaller than the charging creature your Dexterity check gets a +2 bonus for each size category you are smaller.

If your check fails the creature gets an additional +2 bonus to its attack rolls against you and deals +2d6 damage with its first attack.

If your check succeeds the creature's attacks fail and you may either move the creature up to 10ft away from you in any non-vertical direction or knock it prone. For every 5 points by which you beat the charging creature's check you may move the creature 5 additional feet (even if you knocked it prone). Unless the creature's charge doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, this movement provokes attacks of opportunity but not from you.

Saturnine Sway (Su): Starting at 7th level, a Sagitteer is able to delay his action (see Delay, PHB 160) in one round without changing his Initiative in the next round. When he takes his action, by expending his Psionic Focus he may interrupt another creature's actions as though he had readied an action to do so (though he need not specify the intention to do so beforehand).

Ace in the Hole (Ex): Starting at 8th level, a Sagitteer takes no penalty to Hide checks while sniping (see Hide, PHB 76).

Astrological Answers (Su): Starting at 9th level, while Psionically Focused a Sagitteer gains the benefits of a Trace Teleport effect as the power. He may expend his Psionic Focus as a standard action to mimic the effects of a Contact Other Plane spell. In effect he looks to the stars, reading horoscopes to glean what information he can. He does not necessarily hold a conversation with anyone or anything.

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): Starting at 10th level a Sagitteer is able to seemingly vanish into thin air, and while in any sort of terrain can use the Hide skill even while being observed.

Coronal Strike (Ex): Starting at 11th level, as long as he is Psionically Focused, whenever the Sagitteer successfully hits a creature with a ranged attack he may designate it as marked. He may only have one marked creature at a time and designating a new marked creature removes that designation from any other creatures. He effectively threatens marked creatures for the purposes of making attacks of opportunity but he may not make attacks of opportunity for movement. Attacks of opportunity made in this way can be made out to his weapon's maximum range (including Far Shot and all range increments).

A Sagitteer with Coronal Strike still threatens with a melee weapon as normal and may take attacks of opportunity when a creature he threatens provokes one, including attacks of opportunity provoked because of movement, as normal.

Starseeker (Su): Starting at 12th level, as an immediate action, a Sagitteer may mimic an aberration of starlight by suffusing a ranged attack with subspace energy allowing it to follow foes through dimensions. Up to 1 round after an enemy used a teleportation effect you may make a ranged attack attempting to hit them through time and space.

You roll an attack against your target's AC normally, and aim for the space in which they used their teleportation effect. If your attack roll meets or beats the target's AC and if, when you make your attack, your weapon's range is enough to reach the space in which they used the teleportation effect and the distance the target is currently away from the destination of said effect, you hit the enemy normally and deal damage accordingly.

Because of the refraction of trajectory Cometfall cannot be used in conjunction with Starseeker.

Improved Stargazer (Su): Starting at 13th level, while the Sagitteer is Psionically Focused, he gains the benefits of True Seeing out to his line of sight. Further, when he gains Psionic Focus his Anticipate Teleportation effect becomes a Greater Anticipate Teleportation effect if he desires. Finally, while Psionically Focused, he no longer needs to expend his focus to perceive and interact with creatures on a coexisting plane and/or creatures within an extradimensional space.

Celestial Phase (Su): Starting at 14th level, as an immediate action, a Sagitteer may remove the material from her ranged attack and replace it with pure subspace energy allowing it to pass through all obstacles on its way to a target. His ranged attack travels to the target in a direct path, passing through any nonmagical barrier or wall in its way. This ability negates cover, concealment, and even manufactured and natural armor bonuses, but otherwise the attack is rolled normally.

A Sagitteer doesn't need line of sight to a target when using Celestial Phase he need only know the creature he wishes to attack. If the target is beyond the Sagitteer's normal range the attack will pursue the target through as many range increments as possible, accruing attack penalties as normal, before fading harmlessly into nothing.

Celestial Phase can be used with Cometfall to fire through low ceilings and obstacles as well as ignore increment penalties and deal extra damage.

Astrological Revelation (Su): Starting at 15th level, a Sagitteer may expend his Psionic Focus as a standard action to mimic the effects of a Greater Scrying spell. If he later becomes Psionically Focused again his True Seeing effect from Improved Stargazer functions through this effect. The duration of the effect is shorter than normal lasting only 1 minute per two class levels but the Sagitteer needs neither material components or a focus of any kind.

Mercurial Haste (Su): Starting at 16th level, while a Sagitteer is Psionically Focused and uses his Saturnine Sway feature he may always interrupt another creature's actions as though he had readied an action to do so without needing to expend his Focus.

Furthermore, as an immediate action, the Sagitteer may expend his Focus and take his turn rather than waiting for it to come up in the initiative sequence. When he does his place in the initiative sequence in subsequent rounds is altered to match.

Meteor Shower (Su): Starting at 17th level, after a Sagitteer makes a Cometfall attack, he may expend his Psionic Focus to convert the attack into four spheres of celestial fire to produce an effect similar to the Meteor Swarm spell. The effect's range is that of your Cometfall attack and the ranged touch attacks of each sphere may suffer penalties to their attack roll for distance depending on the Spot check you made when using Cometfall.

You may designate a single target for each sphere or a separate one, or even no targets at all to simply bomb an area. The spheres created by this effect do not benefit from the damage bonus of a normal Cometfall attack.

Damage dealt by the spheres bypasses an amount of damage reduction, regeneration, and fire resistance equal to your Sagitteer level. Immunity to Fire instead becomes fire resistance 50 and is then reduced accordingly.

Greater Stargazer (Su): Starting at 18th level, when a Sagitteer gains Psionic Focus he may ward a radius around himself out to 60ft as Dimensional Lock and may also produce a Find the Path effect as the spell except that the destination may also be a specific known creature as Locate Creature. These effects last as long as he has Psionic Focus.

Finally, he may expend his Psionic Focus as a standard action to mimic the effects of a Discern Location spell.

Cosmic Awareness (Su): Starting at 19th level, while the Sagitteer is Psionically Focused he gains the benefits of a Foresight effect as the spell.

Furthermore, when a Sagitteer gains his Psionic Focus he may weave threads of his very soul with strands of subspace energy, planting a Fine-sized seed, within which resides his cosmic imprint, in a secret location on the Astral Plane. He may have only one seed in existence at any one time. Until such time as he perishes, the astral seed is totally inert. Upon dying, his body is transported to the location of the astral seed, where he spends a day growing a new body at which point the old one crumbles to a fine cosmic dust to be scattered to the astral winds. Resurrecting in this manner will cost a level. If the seed is destroyed, before he perishes nothing happens to his body upon dying. If the seed is destroyed after he has perished but before a new body is grown his body does not crumble into dust, but remains secreted away within the Astral Plane.

Seraphic Gate (Su): Starting at 20th level, a Sagitteer may spend 10 minutes concentrating (which may be interrupted as normal) and expend his focus at the end of that time to mimic the effects of a Gate spell. He must pay triple the XP cost associated with the spell if he intends to call creatures through the Gate.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2011, 11:20:51 PM by bkdubs123 »

RobbyPants

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I think the concept is good, and I'd like to see where you go with this. I like the focus on mobility, because it's so important to an archer. A few things:

- As it stands, this class is very dippable.  I know it's a WIP, but even a melee based character could gain some solid benefit to taking two levels of this class.  Some are situational and some are awesome, but at a minimum, even a Str-based melee brute would probably find immunity to Power Attack, access to Psionic feats, and Precise Shot pretty attractive.  It's probably worth the drop of 1d6 Sneak Attack for a rogue to take, too.

- Something that might be useful is the ability to start reducing and ignoring DR.  Typical archers fire a lot of shots for small amounts of damage each.  Alternately, the ability to make single, powerful attacks as a standard action or AoE shots* could be another approach.  Or both.

- Out of curiosity: why the focus on unarmed damage?  Flavor?


* For AoE shots, I could see things like:
  • Penetrating Shot - this affects a line of some length (level based?).  Perhaps it's Reflex save for half or perhaps you roll a single attack roll and compare it to everyone's AC.
  • Volley - this affects a cylinder of some radius (level based?) at some range.  Again, Ref save for half, or single attack roll to resolve.
  • Rapid Shot - this affects a cone of some length (level based?).
Any or all or these could be good.  I'd personally say all of them, some at different levels.  I'm not sure how much damage would be good.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
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I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
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Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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As it stands, this class is very dippable.  I know it's a WIP, but even a melee based character could gain some solid benefit to taking two levels of this class.  Some are situational and some are awesome, but at a minimum, even a Str-based melee brute would probably find immunity to Power Attack, access to Psionic feats, and Precise Shot pretty attractive.  It's probably worth the drop of 1d6 Sneak Attack for a rogue to take, too.

Yeah. The problem child here is really Elusive Target at 2nd level, but I'm really loathe to drop it as it seems like something that's necessary to the class. It feels almost like a hack if I turn Spatial Awareness into a (Su) ability with restrictions to prevent dips, but that may be the best solution.

Quote
Something that might be useful is the ability to start reducing and ignoring DR.  Typical archers fire a lot of shots for small amounts of damage each.  Alternately, the ability to make single, powerful attacks as a standard action or AoE shots* could be another approach.  Or both.

See Cometfall, 5th level. I know the typical archer fires many arrows per round, but to borrow a line from Tony Stark, I feel a competent archer prefers the bow you only have to fire once (per round).

Quote
Out of curiosity: why the focus on unarmed damage?  Flavor?

I won't be adding any actual "focus" on unarmed damage, the unarmed boost is there simply to give them a reliable melee back up in case something gets through his line of fire. He can hold a bow in two hands and still kick someone in the face if they get too close.

Quote
* For AoE shots, I could see things like:
  • Penetrating Shot - this affects a line of some length (level based?).  Perhaps it's Reflex save for half or perhaps you roll a single attack roll and compare it to everyone's AC.
  • Volley - this affects a cylinder of some radius (level based?) at some range.  Again, Ref save for half, or single attack roll to resolve.
  • Rapid Shot - this affects a cone of some length (level based?).
Any or all or these could be good.  I'd personally say all of them, some at different levels.  I'm not sure how much damage would be good.

I'll consider things like this, but for this class I feel like it's job is supposed to be precisely aimed shots at one target at a time. If the Wizard's job is to Fireball a bunch of mooks, and the Fighter's job is to bring down single brutish targets, it seems to me that the Archer's job is to take down pesky skirmishers that are difficult for his fellow party members to hit.

RobbyPants

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I read the post that started this in the other thread after I posted here, so a lot of it makes more sense.  I can totally see leaving AoE out, if you want.

Did I read Comet Fall right?  Do you need to have a large amount of vertical space to make it work?  So, it would be effectively useless in dungeons, right?  I can be fine with this so long as he has other increased damage-dealing options, even if they're not as good.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Prime32

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What about the ability to fire without provoking AoOs?

Also:
Quote
Furthermore, he may expend his Psionic Focus to gain the ability to strike ethereal and astral targets as though they occupied his current planar location for 1 round.
The wording makes it sound like you can make melee attacks against a guy on the other side of the planet if he's Ethereal.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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What about the ability to fire without provoking AoOs?

I prefer the imagery of the Sagitteer kicking a dude in the face to shooting him with his bow at point blank range. It makes more sense to me. But, yeah, Close-Quarters Archery could replace the unarmed strike progression if one was so inclined.

Quote
Also:
Quote
Furthermore, he may expend his Psionic Focus to gain the ability to strike ethereal and astral targets as though they occupied his current planar location for 1 round.
The wording makes it sound like you can make melee attacks against a guy on the other side of the planet if he's Ethereal.

Do you have any suggestions for a better wording? Mine is pretty wonky, but I can't think of a better way to describe attacking something that exists in a coterminous planar space.

Quote from: RobbyPants date=1307630570
Did I read Comet Fall right?  Do you need to have a large amount of vertical space to make it work?  So, it would be effectively useless in dungeons, right?  I can be fine with this so long as he has other increased damage-dealing options, even if they're not as good.

Yeah, you read that correctly. I could probably be persuaded to nix the limitation on vertical distance, but I want to keep it there for now. In dungeons he can totally flip out and rapid/multishot fools and kill people with his hands. But still, a secondary damage increasing option, if I keep the limitation on Cometfall, would be desirable, I agree.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 12:54:15 PM by bkdubs123 »

kurashu

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You could word it as:

By expending his psionic focus, a sagitter may attack an ethereal target as if his attacks dealt force damage.

veekie

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Single effective shots and trick shots(status effects, trick arrows) could be interesting way to take. Mostly the system just supports spamming a crapton of magic arrows from a magic bow for Massive Damage.
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[/spoiler]

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bkdubs123

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The Sagitteer needs to be able to target an area at range with his Anticipate Teleportation effect I think. That way he frees himself up for sniping with Cometfall while he can delay teleportation of enemies around his allies, not around himself. Ideas for me? I think I'm also going to include a basic Scrying method because I want this class to do justice to the flavor text of the Magic card Selesnya Sagittars, "What's their strike range you ask? Let's put it this way: Sagittars aim their bows using maps." :)

EDIT: Also, I feel like maybe I'm building this class more as what I'd like to see a ranged character be capable of and less like I did with the Battlelord where I identified what the class' job is, what tools it needs to do its job, and what tools it needs to negate effects that would stop it from doing its job.

So, for those of you that have played ranged characters in the past, what would you say that your job in the party was? What tools do you wish you had to do that job better? What circumstances, effects, or abilities prevented you from effectively doing your job?

EDIT the 2nd: Also, I'd like to adapt Cometfall so that it doesn't have to be used at a massive horizontal distance away from the target. Such that a Sagitteer could simply make a ranged attack from a great height with respect to his foe, or arc the attack at a much steeper angle so that it comes crashing down on a nearby foe. Suggestions for how to word this would be very helpful.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 05:31:40 AM by bkdubs123 »

Amechra

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Heh, bkdubs, you were right on the "different visions" part. I'll post mine once I have enough ideas.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

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bkdubs123

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Re: The Sagitteer (Ranged Base Class, Inspired by the Battlelord, HELP!)
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2011, 01:07:22 AM »
Heh, bkdubs, you were right on the "different visions" part. I'll post mine once I have enough ideas.

Haha, yeah, I'll bet. I started out just determining what tools an effective ranged character would need to hit difficult skirmisher threats, but the class really took on a mind of it's own after I got to the Stargazer feature. This thing starts off as an awesome sniper but it becomes something that plays the game on it's own terms pretty quickly... not sure how I feel about it.

EDIT: Still looking for feedback on these issues: "I feel like maybe I'm building this class more as what I'd like to see a ranged character be capable of and less like I did with the Battlelord where I identified what the class' job is, what tools it needs to do its job, and what tools it needs to negate effects that would stop it from doing its job.

So, for those of you that have played ranged characters in the past, what would you say that your job in the party was? What tools do you wish you had to do that job better? What circumstances, effects, or abilities prevented you from effectively doing your job?"

EDIT the 2nd: Changed the wording on Cometfall to better represent the effect, but now it's incredibly complicated requiring a trigonometry calculator... This is NOT desirable. Any suggestions for how to clean this up or make it simpler?

EDIT the 3rd: Came up with a wording for Cometfall that, while still fairly complex, doesn't require trigonometry and comes up with reasonable results.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 05:25:06 AM by bkdubs123 »

skydragonknight

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Re: The Sagitteer (Ranged Base Class, Inspired by the Battlelord, HELP!)
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2011, 10:15:04 AM »
Instead of unarmed damage, why not allow a tumble check where the check result is the number of feet you can move without provoking for movement?
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Kuroimaken

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Re: The Sagitteer (Ranged Base Class, Inspired by the Battlelord, HELP!)
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2011, 01:37:45 PM »
Well then, let's take a look...

Okay, besides the fact that it's VERY dippable, the chassis is a bit too awesome. Full BAB, two good saves AND 6+int skill points per level? I'd want this on any class regardless of class features! (Of course, if you're aiming for making a ranged attacker compete with sorcerers/druids, more power to you.)

If you'd rather keep the unarmed strike progression, may I suggest you scale it back a bit? As it is it's pretty much a copypasta of the monk's. You could cap it at 2d6, for example.

Cometfall's restriction is... well, I'm sorry to say, but it feels like it makes the ability entirely useless to me. It's VERY RARE to see a battle start at OMFG range unless your DM is fond of battlefield scenarios. Even rarer for the archer to have such a height difference. I'd suggest you drop the limitation entirely, maybe add damage according to how far from the target the shot was fired. Unless your intention was something like "I shoot at the sky, a meteor falls on my enemy".

I think he should gain a competence bonus to spot equal to half his levels or something. Just sayin'.

Phasing arrows (i.e. "my arrows ignore walls, BITCH!"). Thought of them?

The ability to reroll ranged attacks could be nice too. Remember, everyone rolls a 1 sometime. It seems appropriate, especially to a class with so many abilities based on psionic focus.

Seconding the suggestion for trick shots/status effect shots. My personal suggestion would be to start off with ability damage.

More thoughts as I get into them.
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RobbyPants

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Re: The Sagitteer (Ranged Base Class, Inspired by the Battlelord, HELP!)
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2011, 03:03:05 PM »
the chassis is a bit too awesome. Full BAB, two good saves AND 6+int skill points per level?
The Ranger gets this, and it doesn't seem overpowered in the least.  Also, note that one of those two good saves is the unimportant one.

I think having UMD on your class list is more important than getting 6 skill points a level.
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Kuroimaken

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Re: The Sagitteer (Ranged Base Class, Inspired by the Battlelord, HELP!)
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2011, 05:19:55 PM »
the chassis is a bit too awesome. Full BAB, two good saves AND 6+int skill points per level?
The Ranger gets this, and it doesn't seem overpowered in the least.  Also, note that one of those two good saves is the unimportant one.

I think having UMD on your class list is more important than getting 6 skill points a level.
True, Robby. But he doesn't get 8+ feats over the course of less than five levels or ten class features... Besides, Fortitude saves are A) easier to boost, B) come up at shorter ranges (there aren't that many long-range fort save spells) and C) come up less often than Will saves do.
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bkdubs123

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Re: The Sagitteer (Ranged Base Class, Inspired by the Battlelord, HELP!)
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2011, 08:28:55 PM »
(Of course, if you're aiming for making a ranged attacker compete with sorcerers/druids, more power to you.)

That'd be exactly what I'm aiming for. Obviously it'll never make Tier 2, but if I can make it a powerful Tier 3 it should be able to play the game with Tier 1s and 2s and still feel like a superhero.

Quote
If you'd rather keep the unarmed strike progression, may I suggest you scale it back a bit? As it is it's pretty much a copypasta of the monk's. You could cap it at 2d6, for example.

I might, though I can't say I'm sure why I would. *shrug*

Quote
Cometfall's restriction is... well, I'm sorry to say, but it feels like it makes the ability entirely useless to me. It's VERY RARE to see a battle start at OMFG range unless your DM is fond of battlefield scenarios. Even rarer for the archer to have such a height difference. I'd suggest you drop the limitation entirely, maybe add damage according to how far from the target the shot was fired. Unless your intention was something like "I shoot at the sky, a meteor falls on my enemy".

Trust me, everyone's saying what you're saying. I'm thinking about losing the restrictions and opening the extra damage up for non-arced shots, but before I do that I'd rather find a way to help the Sagitteer dictate the range of a combat. That's another reason for the CoP and scrying abilities the Sagitteer gains at higher levels. I know it's kind of different from the traditional party member, but I'm hoping the Sagitteer can, using a combination of his class features, scout at unprecedented distances. In that light, I realize that Cometfall is still not always useful, but it is a powerful tool, one of many in the Sagitteer's arsenal, for the right circumstances.

Quote
I think he should gain a competence bonus to spot equal to half his levels or something. Just sayin'.

Originally, the Sagitteer did get such a bonus, but a nixed it in lieu of eliminating distance penalties. For the Sagitteer's purposes, I felt it was simultaneously more useful and less powerful.

Quote
Phasing arrows (i.e. "my arrows ignore walls, BITCH!"). Thought of them?

It was ripped from the Arcane Archer. Is there just a phasing arrow that you can buy? I wasn't aware.

Quote
The ability to reroll ranged attacks could be nice too. Remember, everyone rolls a 1 sometime. It seems appropriate, especially to a class with so many abilities based on psionic focus.

I agree with this idea. And I think, instead of getting Wisdom to attack rolls I'll give it a number of rerolls based on his Wisdom modifier.

Quote
Seconding the suggestion for trick shots/status effect shots. My personal suggestion would be to start off with ability damage.

More thoughts as I get into them.

While I can see the appeal of this the primary goal of the class is to acquire abilities that an archer is going to need to operate, and I don't know that trick shots/status effects are anything the class needs to operate. Any suggestions on what could be taken away from the Sagitteer to make room for trick shots/status effects?

Also, as an aside, are Cometfall, Coronal Strike, Starseeker, Celestial Phase, and Meteor Shower not tricky enough? What types of trick shots/status effects would you like to see? I could potentially put in a progression labelled Trick Shot including abilities like Cometfall, Starseeker, etc, but also including others that we come up with. That might be a better idea in fact.

Amechra

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Re: The Sagitteer (Ranged Base Class, Inspired by the Battlelord, HELP!)
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2011, 09:03:26 PM »
Guys, my class is going to take the trick shot route (fluff: Ascetic archers Knife-throwers who have learned how to disrupt people's chi from a range. With arrows Knives.)

Because in my PoV, ranged attackers need battlefield control and debuffing (after all, their job is to get rid of the glass cannons the enemy has.)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2011, 12:30:23 AM by Amechra »
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On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
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Kuroimaken

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Re: The Sagitteer (Ranged Base Class, Inspired by the Battlelord, HELP!)
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2011, 09:57:16 PM »
You COULD start with a turning corners trick shot, that's pretty much a classic.  :D
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For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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bkdubs123

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Re: The Sagitteer (Ranged Base Class, Inspired by the Battlelord, HELP!)
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2011, 11:01:17 PM »
You COULD start with a turning corners trick shot, that's pretty much a classic.  :D

I'd thought of it, but it seemed only useful at really low levels, and mine are already quite stuffed. I'm looking forward to seeing Amechra's class.

Made substantial edits to Astrological Aim, Stargazer, Cometfall, Coronal Strike, and Celestial Phase. In particular Cometfall is much more useful and much less complicated now.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 11:06:21 PM by bkdubs123 »

veekie

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Re: The Sagitteer (Ranged Base Class, Inspired by the Battlelord, HELP!)
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2011, 12:11:09 AM »
Looking at all the astrological abilities there really should be some kind of constellation power. Hell if I know what though.
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