Author Topic: Leadership and Thrallherd - Really that good?  (Read 6507 times)

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Summerstorm

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Leadership and Thrallherd - Really that good?
« on: June 03, 2011, 07:02:26 PM »
Well, i just tweaked around with character creation, building a Psion (My other character was denied by my gm - damn), when i saw that a telepath pretty much auto-qualifies for Thrallherd.

So, having read a lot about the awesome power i tried to look into this class and also into the "Leadership"-feat which some call "the best feat out there". But so far, i am just seeing problems after problems and would like to read more about YOUR opinion about this class/feat:

Good things first: Having a nice "Base Camp" somewhere at the beginning of the dungeon/ at the foot of the evil tower etc. is awesome. Keeping the bad dudes from fleeing, providing a safe place to sleep and some healing and such: awesome.

But:
1.  Leadership (and Thrallherd) specify you can try to attract certain classes, races and alignment... Ok. But power sets, feat selection, equipment and skillranks? GM seems to have a VERY strong power to veto anything, and it seems VERY advised he makes use of that.

2. Are you able (and willing) as a character to demand certain prepared spells and tactics from your followers? Would your character (except for special combo preparation) even care?

3. Logistic NIGHTMARE and high-profile traveling: Not only do you need to cloth and feed (and replace/upgrade equipment for) a crapton of people, but you also move slower on your travels are unable to approach stealthily. And then there is all the digging for mass-graves when something went wrong *g*

4. Internal unrest: Especially if you attract weird combinations of alignments or races. Sure they are all pretty loyal to you but that doesn't exclude them scheming and hurting each other (or planning on "letting them die" in the next fight - accidents happen). Seems to me you better have a good diplomacy and take your time calming people down and... you know, be a LEADER.

Now... for Thrallherd. The whole idea is cool and all... but i really wished it was explained a bit in depth WHAT that power REALLY is and how far it goes. I read here about people killing their own believers off, or working them like slaves. But nowhere i could find something in the description telling you: Your thrall and believers are your meat-puppets with no mind of their own and a permanent dominate spell.

For me it looks like they don't really have the "will" to follow, but you gently nudged them into your service (Also no explaination why Thrallherd isn't "Evil-only" - just feels not really nice, this class. It IS pretty much slavery AND mindrape rolled into a deliciously evil taco)

Can you really have them fight each other for your amusement? Wouldn't they just say: "Fuck this", and leave... and you get new ones?

Oh also: What if you change planes, or travel through time or just go into a small ship and sail across the ocean? Shouldn't that mean that most/all believers now are confused and alone... and you have to get new ones? People here say you can "dismiss" them... but CAN you really? Can you even have FEWER deadweight as stated in the table? The way the descriptions are phrased (for Thrallherd at least) is: BAM here have some belivers and a thrall. Nothing says you WANT them, or can take fewer... people just follow you around somehow, you can't shake them *g*

So overall: How do you handle Followers, Believers, Cohorts and Thralls in your games? How many GM forbid the stuff alltogether (for simplicity, or because it just doesn't fit with "Wandering Adventurers"), or because of power-issues etc.? What are your experiences with this? Discuss.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 07:55:58 PM by Summerstorm »

Nachofan99

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Re: Leadership and Thrallherd - Really that good?
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2011, 07:18:00 PM »
The way my group and I have ruled "Leadership" is I'm sure different than most other groups.

We see Leadership and similar abilities as 100% in the DMs hands...but to be used for balance, plot and ultimately, fun.

Look at the Wizard and Druid - they start out with "Leadership" in the form of their Familiar/Animal Companion. "Leadership" and the like can help put a lower tier character on slightly more even footing by giving them a heal/buff/utility bot.

We have granted the feat for free in many of our campaigns and have never had an issue with a follower/co-hort disrespecting their Leader as long as the Leader does not disrespect them.  Now, obviously, when you bring "Evil" into it, I say you're noticing issues because you're doing it wrong.  The heart of D&D 3.X is about killing evil monsters and taking their stuff...oh and btw you're heroes not villains.  The further you move from that relatively narrow gameplay focus, the more the already fairly weak system struggles.

On a purely mechanical level, "Leadership" in any form is one of the strongest, most versatile feats in the entire system...and they are always written with some notion that the DM has to be involved.

I mean it's basically what the BG hosts have talked about since day 1.  You're suppoded to be enjoying your games.  Get everyone to agree on how "Leadership" works and be done with it.

Stormcrow

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Re: Leadership and Thrallherd - Really that good?
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2011, 03:01:53 AM »
Well I have used the thrallheard a few times and normally get some control especially when the character starts off as a thrallheard but I also talk with the DM and at times let him control the thrall when the dm wants there are two few funny occasions in that the thrall was drawn to the thrall heard and any time my character would show any interested in a female character an act of disapproval (from a hitto the back of the head to jabs toe stubbing exc) this was almost a running Gage considering that my character was a womanizer

Q3 well I find for low level followers the warfoge very useful that way you only have to worry about gear

as for the question of the thrallheard power well I think does have some ability to act independent, normaly i avoid getting them killed though useing them as spies watching trying to find out info by shadowing people to running a ship or camp. or base . but some times i cant do anything to stop some deaths form happening . the

as for the portal I think they would still be bound to but you like an animal companion  and player death

I will have to say that the thrallheard is a very very powerful class do to the Believers and Thralls to the point of not allowing the two thralls being thrallheards with 4 more thalls and scores of Believers
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 03:04:23 AM by Stormcrow »

Bortasz

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Re: Leadership and Thrallherd - Really that good?
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2011, 03:32:11 AM »
1.  Yup you don't have power to chose what kind of feats, skills, and equipment have you Followers/belivers... But you can change ther Equipment and if retrain is possible also change feats, and skills of you most interesting servants.

2. Yes. I give orders, I train them, I advice them about Spells, Skills and Tactics. Pushing them in to what I want from them. This increase there usefulness

3. Yes you need cloth and feed but you can give orders Train them and originate them. Also they can Hunt animals, gather strawberries work for Food or simple Rob somebody you don't like.
In Trallherd you don't have worry about replacement. Witch Leadership it's more complicate

4. Look to point 1 you wrote. You can try to attrac guys you want and dismiss you don't want. Especial witch Trallherd is simple.

5 Meat pupets and Slave.
You decide how you treat your Believers. If you are good God you don't sacrifice them to Deamons and Devils for extra XP. IF you are bad God You do what you whant.

6. God.
Trallherd have Believers... not Followers. Difference: You Follow a Sobieski, Washington, Patton, Pilsudski.
You Believe in God.

7. Believers will comity suicide attack on WTC. So yes they will kill each other for you amusement.

8. About Dismiss. Depend on you Charactrer. Bad GOd do what he wants. Good God will be more gentle. But both can dismiss there Believers if they think is good idea.

9.
Followers are normal people ho decide to take orders from the Players.
Cohort is the most Skilled, trusted and loyal Follower
Believers are religion Fanatic ho see you as the God or Messiah.
Thrall is the most Skilled, trusted and loyal believer.

My question is that
If you attract as Trallherd Clerics, Paladins, Favoured Soul, Druid and other Divine Caster. Will they have there powers or they lost them since now they are you Player/God Believers not God/God believers?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 03:34:50 AM by Bortasz »
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JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: Leadership and Thrallherd - Really that good?
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2011, 08:54:54 AM »
Yes absolutely, they(esp. thrallherd) really are that good, need equipment? Artificer thrall, he WILL be here within 24hours.  Need a specific spell? Choose the appropriate spellcaster thrall... need an obscure skill? (Arguably) a Factotum will have some ranks, just hang out until he gets here...

They are as good as you can plan ahead, you just play it kinda like a Tier1

Worried about digging graves?  ??? ... easy! have all your believers have a level of ghost,

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skydragonknight

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Re: Leadership and Thrallherd - Really that good?
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2011, 10:48:48 AM »
My question is that
If you attract as Trallherd Clerics, Paladins, Favoured Soul, Druid and other Divine Caster. Will they have there powers or they lost them since now they are you Player/God Believers not God/God believers?

Clerics and Paladins can draw power from beliefs rather than a god if they so choose. A Druid draws power from nature...and still will, just in your service. Favored Souls are strictly deity-based and most likely to lose their granted abilities.
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spacemonkey555

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Re: Leadership and Thrallherd - Really that good?
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2011, 11:15:34 AM »
My question is that
If you attract as Trallherd Clerics, Paladins, Favoured Soul, Druid and other Divine Caster. Will they have there powers or they lost them since now they are you Player/God Believers not God/God believers?

Clerics and Paladins can draw power from beliefs rather than a god if they so choose. A Druid draws power from nature...and still will, just in your service. Favored Souls are strictly deity-based and most likely to lose their granted abilities.

What's the rules conflict that prevents an npc from believing in a god and also believing in his mere mortal leader? Clerics have to commit gross misconduct to lose their spells, I don't see how being mindcontrolled by a thrallherd qualifies unless he orders them to do something against the god's code.

awaken DM golem

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Re: Leadership and Thrallherd - Really that good?
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2011, 05:59:57 PM »
Cleric of philosophies ... gets around that.



The old CO standard on Leadership, was pick whatever.
This stops most of the "abusing" of cohorts.

I've pointed out the Race (singular) and Class (singular)
in the leadership entry, a few times. It's not all that important.
After the Cohort shows up --- you took L. at the level 6 feat slot right ?! ---
then you can guide it toward more specific needs.
PHB2 retraining and then PsyRef, fixes almost everything else.
PHB2 rebuilding can fix almost everything after that.

Psion 7 just tags a PsyRef on the Cohort, 1 level after showing up.
Or Psion 7 retrains the level 6 feat slot to Leadership at level 7,
and PsyRef's the Cohort the moment it shows up.
And that's the worst case scenario for leadership.

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Re: Leadership and Thrallherd - Really that good?
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2011, 06:51:23 PM »
Low-level thralls can be exceptionally useful in a campaign, but you have to take into account that they ARE low level, and plan accordingly.

Use them in mobs.

Go Tucker's Kobolds on your foes.

Use the crafters in sweatshops.

Round up the thralls with Bluff and Gather Information as their skills and send them out to spy for you.

Set the archers up for volley attacks.

Use low-level spellcasters to cast the incredibly overpowered low-level spells that you might need for whatever purposes, be they utility or combat. Even a level 1 Magic Missile can be powerful if you have 30 or more going off simultaneously on a single opponent.

Etc.

Think outside the box here.
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Widow

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Re: Leadership and Thrallherd - Really that good?
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2011, 09:31:40 PM »
Well, first of all you dont have to fed all of your minions unless you are taking them everywhere with you.  Persumably they were not all destitute homeless people before they met you.

Second, I usually find it wise to never take your cohort/thrall adventuring with you.  They get xp automatically based on Their level/Your level x your xp reward.  That means you take an artificer, someone with out of combat spells or powers, a party face for dealing with royalty, or a Fiend of Possession that comes with you but is never seen.  These can all be useful and will not overshadow other players in the party or interfer with combat setup.  If you do make a cohort to take with you, make him something low key as to not draw too much attention.

Picking your cohort will certainly be DM dependent, just like making your character.  But if you are going to pick some ultra strange combination of classes, races, feats, and skills I dont have that much problem with a DM overule.  Again keep the characters task simple and mostly non-combative.  If you pick artificer, you will pretty much get an artificer that can make your stuff.  Even if he does not start with an obscure item creation feat, he will pick up a feat in 3 or 4 levels in the worse case scenario.  For psionic power transfers, if you get the psion early and advance him, you probably will be allowed to pick up his later powers and the ones you are most likely interested, likewise for spell casters.  And Fiend of Possession is easy, pick an evil outsider race and Fiend of Possession class.  The DM wont have many options on how to screw with that.

But obivously the reason the feat is so powerful is it is a entire second character for the the cost of one feat.  I have had many DM's that disallow this feat just because they don't want a cohort taking away the glory of PC's or having the party size double unexpectently.  This maybe what has led me to my perspective on what a good cohort would be, but you might as well take advantage of the xp mechanism and leave them at home.  I would explain how all those non-adventuring wizards and artificers are able to churn out magic items, they are just riding the XP gravy train. 

Bortasz

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Re: Leadership and Thrallherd - Really that good?
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2011, 03:47:08 AM »
My question is that
If you attract as Trallherd Clerics, Paladins, Favoured Soul, Druid and other Divine Caster. Will they have there powers or they lost them since now they are you Player/God Believers not God/God believers?

Clerics and Paladins can draw power from beliefs rather than a god if they so choose. A Druid draws power from nature...and still will, just in your service. Favored Souls are strictly deity-based and most likely to lose their granted abilities.

In Eberron that works... but what witch Faeurun?

Also. I will soon play Psion Telepath and Aiming in to the Trallherd. In Faeurun. ]:D ]:-> ]:D So what king of Thrall take? And what kind of Believers keep?
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Summerstorm

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Re: Leadership and Thrallherd - Really that good?
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2011, 04:47:52 AM »
Hm hm... so the consensus is: They really don't have ANY choice (When you are a thrallherd), and many people expand that even to leadership?

Well, i think when i am getting the ok (still waiting on my gm) i will certainly design my thrall. But make him a standard character. (Possibly Cleric, no multiclassing, no strange race) and task him with keeping my believers safe and provide me with buffs and a base-camp. My believers should be 1/3 Fighters, 1/3 Blasters (Sorcerers or Warlocks) and 1/3 providers (Rogues for city, Ranger for wilds... mixed)

At least at start. In higher Thrallherd levels this will change to more blasters and more rogues (spynet and magic-missile massacre)

And i won't "FORCE" my thrall to take feats and classes as i demand, but will let him grow on his own. (Of course i still will level and play him myself). Since i am not an evil master i have to think about their well being and their future. After a year or so i should dismiss them with payment unless they are REALLY willing.

The whole "easing down" on the optimization may be a big no-no (i am in the min-max board, yeah?), but it really feels neccessary for this kind of power. Getting effectively a second character (and a third after a while) in exchange for 2 caster levels is an incredible good deal.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 05:13:39 AM by Summerstorm »

nijineko

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Re: Leadership and Thrallherd - Really that good?
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2011, 02:31:01 AM »
nice choice of icon there. ^^
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Catty Nebulart

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Re: Leadership and Thrallherd - Really that good?
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2011, 04:54:04 AM »
The whole "easing down" on the optimization may be a big no-no (i am in the min-max board, yeah?), but it really feels neccessary for this kind of power. Getting effectively a second character (and a third after a while) in exchange for 2 caster levels is an incredible good deal.

Ah but the easing down is minmax, if you go too power crazy and high tier then you either kill the game or get kicked out of it, and even at a lower level your character and everything that even looks like leadership will be banned. Therefor it is optimal not to be too optimal. :smirk

Providers could easily be spell casters, there are those spells that provide food and/or a house for people, and they do it better and more reliably than mundane providers.
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Summerstorm

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Re: Leadership and Thrallherd - Really that good?
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2011, 11:20:39 PM »
Ah, sorry to dig this one up.

My gm gave me the OK for Thrallherd (I was thinking he would refuse), but just a few hours before the session where i would switch this character in he added a few hooks.

First: I deliberately toned down my thrall (I chose not to optimize any of it. He is single-class, base only - a 7 lvl cleric, with only core feats and spells) and my Believers too. (As much as i would love having Factotums, Dragon Shamans and Assassins under my command i settled for standard Warriors, Rogues, Sorcerers.) I even statted them. But gave them too few money to equip (just saw that NPC have higher wealth at start, lower in later levels)

Now he added that: Instead of using Elite-Array (as i had used for Thrall and Believers) he changed it to: 14,13,12,10,9,8 in attributes (2 bad ones and only one +2 on level 1 is bad) AND: no full HP on first level (as i had assumed) Which makes them UNBELIEVABLE flimsy.

So in my first session i pretty much had my "Captain" stay back with my believers, to have them stay safe and ventured only with my group. My gm also mentioned a REQUIRED half-share of treasure to my thrall (But i think i can talk him out of that, since that is only a suggestion for cohorts and i am not required to do ANYTHING - though i will build up an equipment pool for my dudes. I also decided i will have them come and leave, pressing no single individuum for a long time into service. And have them leave with pay... out of the kindness of my heart. Say maybe 1 GP per week or so.)

But i still have felt that my gm, even if he allowed it, seems to be VERY alarmed. He was very concerned with me having my thrall with me - even if i told him would mostly use him for buffs, base-camp duty and emergency backup only. I guess he will use any opportunity to make my life harder now, even though i myself limited myself already *g*.

So yeah... with great power comes great responsibility - at least for me. But hey, he DID allow it.

nijineko

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Re: Leadership and Thrallherd - Really that good?
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2011, 04:39:33 AM »
have the rest of the flimsy ones use their skills in crafting and profession generating income, perhaps? ^^ diligently set aside living expenses for each one, and use the rest as equipment pool.

next you should take the landlord feat. at least that would give them all a place to live when they are not following you around. =D
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Re: Leadership and Thrallherd - Really that good?
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2011, 07:54:32 AM »
What does it matter if they are frail? You get new ones in 24 hours.

How about asking him whether some of you followers are actually stronger than others? Some could have better ability scores than others. Find out the best ones and kill the others. You'll get new ones anyway.

Have the cleric simply walk in front of you, it's not like it matters if he dies. A new one will find you if he does.

I freaking love Thrallherd for this.
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Re: Leadership and Thrallherd - Really that good?
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2011, 04:35:36 PM »
I just want to point out that I love Summerstorm's icon - it's Jigen from Lupin III =)

My own icon is actually a terrifying attempt to create Lupin III, stick figure style =P

Summerstorm

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Re: Leadership and Thrallherd - Really that good?
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2011, 04:56:14 PM »
Eh... at least you drew yours yourself... i just watched a movie and had to laugh so hard at the handpuppet-scene that i had to make a screencapture of it. (But yeah, i love the old Lupin III - movies and series)

Ah back to stuff: Come on... you can't just kill off your dudes. That's not even lawful evil anymore... just PLAIN evil *g*. Or even steal from them. That is just horrble and this is still a roleplaying game. Not everyone can be a total monster.

Well, i will try sneaking in advanced classes... and maybe softly ask for better minions after a while, when he sees i can't destroy his campaign just like that.



« Last Edit: June 18, 2011, 06:29:20 PM by Summerstorm »

Chilastra022

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Re: Leadership and Thrallherd - Really that good?
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2011, 05:32:07 PM »
I'd have to agree, as nice (for evil characters) as that little bit in the thrallherd class feature is, its probably not a good idea to use thrallherd in that fashion xD unless you want to give your GM bald spots. On that note however, i agree with the line of thought presented by Nijineko. While being able to spontaneously set up a large camp area with your followers, having them follow you around everywhere you go generally isn't very practical, and might serve you better in the long-run by starting some sort of business with your followers. Remember they're 100% loyal and will happily do whatever is needed to further your goals. I'm doing something similar with my thrallherd, starting a business (albeit, a very seedy business not quite so innocent as crafting xD -points to brothel optimization thread-). But it will allow you to gain a sizable benefit from having followers without getting in the GM's way too frequently. A lot of players associate acquiring valuables (be they in material or information) with adventuring, dungeon delving and slaying monsters, as its the most common and generic form of acquiring wealth. But there are alternative methods, such as whats been mentioned above.