Author Topic: Elves vs Man in a new Campaign  (Read 4735 times)

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Petruchio

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Elves vs Man in a new Campaign
« on: May 29, 2011, 11:57:44 PM »
Hey Yall,

I am in the process of constructing an RP heavy campaign which will explore the extra-moral motivations of people and events. Past DMs that I have played with very clearly have drawn a line between the Good guys and bad Guys, the bad guys being Orcs, Demons and Undead to make it super easy for us. The campaign that I'm setting up will be morally gray throughout it all, and most often, the conceptions of traditional Good and Evil will not equate.

To put this in context, the players will all be strong Christians with a keen sense of this absolute morality, but are themselves well versed in Literature and Philosophy. So they will try to read this game as a psudeo-Socratic Dialogue in which they take part in. Intense stuff, but this is who I roll with.

I am planning on making racial conflict the driving force in the game, every race is suspicious of each other, even those who live in close proximity to one another. In a pseudo-medieval setting, to me, it seems appropriate for most people to hold their race in higher esteem than the others. In terms of realism, that is. The most obvious manifestation of this would be an ongoing conflict between Elves and Men.

This is where I get stuck. How is it possible that men could ever raise to become powerful enough to threaten the Elves? In every mythos and campaign that I know of, the elves have been a much more ancient race then men. They live ten times as long as man does too, so there should be elves in every campaign that remember a time when men weren't on the scene at all. How could there have ever been a possibility that humans rose up to threaten an ancient dominant race?

Solo

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Re: Elves vs Man in a new Campaign
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2011, 12:13:54 AM »
The same way humanity established itself here on earth, by banding together and murdering the shit out of the competition with strategy, determination, and brute force when all else fails.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

veekie

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Re: Elves vs Man in a new Campaign
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2011, 03:02:47 AM »
In the beginning, there was no threat. Humans were populous but not advanced, but as they developed mastery in magic and war, their ambitions expanded, so the elves were drawn into war.

The problem.
Humans take decades less time to replace the losses of a generation.
Every elf slain is a major hit to the race, but theres more humans. More notably, if you killed an elven archmage, you just took out some guy with maybe six centuries under his belt. A human archmage probably has sixty years. In the intervening time you've found another five more human archmagi.
Over the course of centuries, this is a lot more human generations than elven.
Elves are not perfectly unified, and genocide is not generally an available option, war, on and off for decades at a time is about the worst attrition they can handle.
In peacetime ,humans again, simply outbreed the elves and mixed communities will bias towards humans in the end.

So basically its the same problem as holding the frontier lands against orcs and other goblinoids, it's a matter of simply being outbred. The only reason an endless supply of orcs is resistable is because of the classic trope attacking fortified positions, lack of developed magic and generally rather stupid tactics.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

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I can barely read mine.

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[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

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Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

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ninjarabbit

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Re: Elves vs Man in a new Campaign
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2011, 08:04:08 PM »
Elves would also likely be more set in their ways and slower to adapt to changing times. Each new generation of humans means a new generation of advances and changes.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Elves vs Man in a new Campaign
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2011, 08:42:14 PM »
RL humans also have a complete aversion to any elf that isn't black-skinned (except the dual-scimitar wielding ones with panther pets; those should die too). And character sheets tend to burn easily.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
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Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
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shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
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Midnight_v

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Re: Elves vs Man in a new Campaign
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2011, 08:48:15 PM »
RL humans also have a complete aversion to any elf that isn't black-skinned (except the dual-scimitar wielding ones with panther pets; those should die too). And character sheets tend to burn easily.
Wtf are you talking about... I can't tell you how many girls I know engaged in legolas fap, and I got a secret to share that shiny vampire shit that gave all the girls wetty's was really just elf fap. They we're elves...
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veekie

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Re: Elves vs Man in a new Campaign
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2011, 08:48:43 PM »
Mechanically speaking that racial Con penalty can't be good.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Elves vs Man in a new Campaign
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2011, 08:55:12 PM »
RL humans also have a complete aversion to any elf that isn't black-skinned (except the dual-scimitar wielding ones with panther pets; those should die too). And character sheets tend to burn easily.
Wtf are you talking about... I can't tell you how many girls I know engaged in legolas fap, and I got a secret to share that shiny vampire shit that gave all the girls wetty's was really just elf fap. They we're elves...
Elves are totally gay.

And not in a good way (that being the same way I am).
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

oslecamo

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Re: Elves vs Man in a new Campaign
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2011, 09:11:15 PM »
In the beginning, there was no threat. Humans were populous but not advanced, but as they developed mastery in magic and war, their ambitions expanded, so the elves were drawn into war.

The problem.
Humans take decades less time to replace the losses of a generation.
Every elf slain is a major hit to the race, but theres more humans. More notably, if you killed an elven archmage, you just took out some guy with maybe six centuries under his belt. A human archmage probably has sixty years. In the intervening time you've found another five more human archmagi.
Over the course of centuries, this is a lot more human generations than elven.

A key point in that train of tought it's that for some reason elves have grown really infertile, to the point that even tough they live a lot of time, they have trouble geting enough children to replace the eldery.

Like, in Warhammer Fantasy the high elven population drops in numbers even during times of peace! Now when they get in an actual war, they're even more screwed as their losses are literally irrepleaceable.

Another usual theme it's that the elves were all powerful, but some major catastrophe hapened and the elven had to sacrifice most of their power to stop said disaster because nobody else could. Then humans take over as they're oportunistic bastards.

Also has the advantage of explaining all the runis with piled artifacts and monsters inside. :p


Midnight_v

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Re: Elves vs Man in a new Campaign
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2011, 09:26:57 PM »
I was working on a short story called "The problem with humans".
Its told from the perspective of an elven swordmaster (in fact a master swordplay instructor)
who's retiring to evermeet or whereever the fuck the elves go to retire.
He's retiring because he's the best swordsman in the world and because of it he gets no peace.
None. Everywhere he goes there's a string of warriors that show's up to battle him.
When it was just amongst elves it was no bigge, challenges came down every 10 years.
Humans get involved eventually however, and then its like ever few months. Every few months
a constant litany of:
"I have come to challenge you!"
"I desire an audience esteemed master"
"My blood will not be sated until all the land has heard of your defeat at my hands!"
Then the repetition of challenges actually increases with things like:
"I will have...." Justice!
"Revenge"
"Recompense!"
"Your head for you have slain!":
"My Father!"
"My son!"
"My lover"
"My sister"
"The last carrier of the mark of Sor'Ree! Who's head was rightfully mine!"
Not only that but roughly 1 in 3 of these duelists are actually quite skilled even a threat to his life.
 Fighters, Barbarians, rangers, paladins of marital gods were on thing, he himself had been bred doing battle with all of them
as well as Elven Bladesingers. Its was quite a different thing when he found himself faced off against his first
"Sword Prince", or any other martial adept and most annoying to deal with Baneblades, or Hexblades or whatever those little stormclouds called themselves. There was even a new branch of elven fighter mages calling themselves "Duskblades" that had sprung up in the last few years. Amounst the orcs and dwarves people bound to totems start to appear.
His life had become a bit more hectic than he wished.
-----------------------------------
The trouble with humans, is that they ambitious, too over reaching, too inventive, to quickly replaced, and most of all
have too much damn temerity.
They learn much more reach they're highest point of ability and teach that to they're replacement in a matter of years.
Elves do it over centuries...
---------------------------------------
Quote
Elves are totally gay.

And not in a good way (that being the same way I am).
Awww... you coming on to me? I CALL TOP!  :lol
Seriously though I just think there's a lot of elf love its the people who are really into Rpgs that get tired of the uber-man elfdom.
THAT AND the con penalty...
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Elves vs Man in a new Campaign
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2011, 09:44:43 PM »
Quote
Elves are totally gay.

And not in a good way (that being the same way I am).
Awww... you coming on to me? I CALL TOP!  :lol
Wow. That's unexpected...
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Petruchio

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Re: Elves vs Man in a new Campaign
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2011, 12:33:41 AM »
Some good points were made. I seek to look at the elves and humans as realistically as possible (as well as the other races) and seek to understand the cultural psychology that would naturally proceed from it.

Humans
Qualities:
Extra skills, extra feat. Shorter lived race, sixty years maximum, less for those who part take in physical combat.

Culture:
Individualistic/tribal. Most obviously seen in the historical middle ages, the individual knights and lords, tempered by the chivalric/fief system. It seems natural that Man to live in this system. They have a great sense of there mortality, and rush to make the most out of there lives, as well as there "immortality projects". For this reason, Humans are the innovators, they always seek to do things quicker and more effectively. They are individually and tribally more adaptable to less than ideal circumstances, since they seek to get things done rather than have them done perfectly.They are selfish and more easily dividable, as they have a bias for action and are willing to trample justice in order to reach there ends. Obsessed in their pursuit for power, wealth, glory and honor.

Elves:
Qualities:
Graceful, weaker constitution. Long lived race.

Culture:
Elves are an ancient race, and much longer lived. They are more willing to wait for ideal conditions before they commit to an action. However this leads to complacency. The one thing that they are obsess with, ironically but strangely fittingly, is not dying. A single elf life is ten times as long as a human life, and thus ten times as valuable. Elves, individually and collectively, should be seeking every avenue to extend there lives, and prevent their untimely demise. They are less likely to start wars (especially prolonged wars) to fight and die for honor or a noble lord, or to devote their lives to wealth, though they are disproportionately wealthy b/c of their long term investments not possible for humans. They are more individualistic, and anti-ruling class. They find the idea of giving up an elven life appalling. They are more likely to have a transcendent government, either a republic or an Elven Emperor. In the course of an elf's eight hundred year life span (made longer by their 20 hour day, as opposed to a human's 16 hour day) it is actually possible for each individual elf to personally meet every other living elf on a continent, or even the world. An over arching government would not rule, so much as keep the peace between all elves, and protect elven interests as a whole, negotiating with smaller human kingdoms, and in declaration in genocidal war.

Also, it seems appropriate that elves be given old age bonuses without  the penalties. Even if they are not more innovative than humans, they are more obsessed with studying ancient lore, have a quantitatively and qualitatively greater personal interaction in the course of their centuries old life, and are meditative. This seems to indicate that they should all recieve a higher INT, WIS and CHA score.

Midnight_v

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Re: Elves vs Man in a new Campaign
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2011, 01:25:42 AM »
Quote
This seems to indicate that they should all recieve a higher INT, WIS and CHA score
:nonono Nope.
Nope not at all... what it means is that they produce the same things in a longer time.
Doesn't mean that in general the force of personality of elves is stronger than that of humans (chr),
or that they're particularly more favorable to the GOD(s) (wis).
I didn't realize this was where you were trying to go with this. Turning fluff into mechanics is a different question entirely. . . and really that interpretation is just wow mechanically flawed.
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

Petruchio

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Re: Elves vs Man in a new Campaign
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2011, 04:21:17 PM »
The way I wanted to go with this psychology of the particular races. Turning fluff into mechanics just came into my analysis accidentally. However I think it follows. Wisdom is a person's prudence and common sense, which grows with age and life experience. Even though a human may try to pack in more excitement and goals in a particular period of time, an elf will have more day to day personal interaction than a human, and are naturally meditative. The growth of prudence and common sense seems to grow more from day to day interactions than from episodes of great danger or stress. Greater Intelligence also seems to be obvious for the elves, though I am not sure about charisma. It has never been particularly clear why CHA/force of personality becomes greater with age. I suppose the weight of experience and competence is felt in their personality, leading people to be more willing to listen and follow.

@veekie: you make a good point, the loss of a single elf is greater than a single human, since humans breed quicker. I am planning on incorporating that in the campaign via the blood-price.

I first heard about the blood price in Beowulf: if one clan injured or killed a member of another clan, then the offending clan must pay the blood price to avoid war. It was scaled, so that an injured hand of a nobleman cost much more than the hand of a peasant. I think that I will incorporate it so that an elf's blood price will cost ten times that of a human. Also, the cost of a raise dead spell and the like will cost ten or even twenty times that of a human, giving even the more powerful elves a greater fear of death, since it is less likely that they will be raised from the dead than their human counterparts.

But does my analysis seem plausible? Humans are short lived, and as such are adaptable, and obsessed with power, money, honor and glory. They are tribal, caring about the individual, but willing to sacrifice themselves for a greater/collective good. Elves are longer lived and obsessed with not dying. They see a elven life to be greater than anything else, even goodness and justice. they are highly individualistic, but understand the need for a transcending, unifying force to bring about the collective interests of elf-kind.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Elves vs Man in a new Campaign
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2011, 06:25:52 PM »
Actually, elves should have a -4 or more to Int, since it takes them nearly a hundred years to learn what a human learns in less than twenty.

Seriously; they're retards.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

SneeR

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Re: Elves vs Man in a new Campaign
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2011, 09:19:10 PM »
Lycanthromancer, Petruchio, you both need to look at it like this:
Elves do not grow and develop the same way as humans.
Petruchio, you would be right to give racial bonuses to the mental stats if they did. But they most assuredly do not.
Lyca, they are not retarded.

Remember when you were in elementary school and one full school year felt like a lifetime? That's because it was a good portion of yours. Have you ever recently looked at some aspect of your life and said, "Already?!" Already a senior in college? Already 30? 40? 50? Kids already graduated?

Elves don't get that. Well, they do, but it takes centuries.

An elf child's mind is virtually the same as an adult elf's mind, cognitively. They can figure things out using concepts they have learned, but they do not absorb information unendingly as a young human child does. They have to learn things like language and basic math like a human or elf adult has to do in college: months of conscious drilling, lecturing, and trying.

This is why elves do not sleep. They spend their nights outlining everything they have learned that day so they do not forget it, ceaselessly reviewing what they memorized earlier because what was not intrinsically absorbed can be forgotten--and nothing they know was ever intrinsically absorbed.

Understanding this, you can see why an elf develops much more slowly. They need to take time to internalize new information, but they ceaselessly analyze everything. Their lives never go through the speeding up that humans do because, even though they have experienced more, they have to choose what they remember. Each second does not seem less lengthy than the last because, unlike humans and their helpless half-remembering of everything that has ever happened to them, elves only remeber what they decide to.

If they decide that a piece of information is not relevant and do not memorize it, they forget the minutia of the information entirely. If they want to remember specifics about it later, they cannot, and must devote energy to learning it again and actually memorize it. Lazy elves take a loooong time to learn everything they need to for their chosen vocations.

This is why grey elves have +2 INT and wild evles -2 INT. High elves realize that they must memorize to remember, and desperately try to memorize everything they could possibly want to know at a later time. Wild elves just devote enough energy to memorize the really cool things that they have learned because they don't really care.

Due to the selective nature of elf memory and the penchance for "human" error in memorizing landmark ideas--or just getting too overwhelmed with information to memorize it all!-- elves do not get crazy mental stats, especially not at the time they reach maturity. At that point, they have just truly mastered what a human of 15-18 has. After all, they can only really memorize one fundamental concept reliably each day, and for the first few decades, they are being taught the memorization techniques necessary to even remember at all.

My two copper.
The answer to everything:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
SneeR
[spoiler]
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
When another driver brandishes a holy symbol and begins glowing with divine light, seek cover or get spattered with zombie brains. I do not see what is so complicated about this.
[/spoiler]

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Elves vs Man in a new Campaign
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2011, 09:25:22 PM »
This is why elves do not sleep. They spend their nights outlining everything they have learned that day so they do not forget it, ceaselessly reviewing what they memorized earlier because what was not intrinsically absorbed can be forgotten--and nothing they know was ever intrinsically absorbed.
So you're saying they ARE functionally retarded. This kind of flies in the face of the whole, 'elves aren't retarded' argument.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

SneeR

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Re: Elves vs Man in a new Campaign
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2011, 09:28:11 PM »
This is why elves do not sleep. They spend their nights outlining everything they have learned that day so they do not forget it, ceaselessly reviewing what they memorized earlier because what was not intrinsically absorbed can be forgotten--and nothing they know was ever intrinsically absorbed.
So you're saying they ARE functionally retarded. This kind of flies in the face of the whole, 'elves aren't retarded' argument.

In a strictest sense of the words, yes, but it's more of a smart retardation. :eh Kind of like approaching eidetic memory one step at a time?
The answer to everything:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
SneeR
[spoiler]
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
When another driver brandishes a holy symbol and begins glowing with divine light, seek cover or get spattered with zombie brains. I do not see what is so complicated about this.
[/spoiler]

Solo

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Re: Elves vs Man in a new Campaign
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2011, 09:29:21 PM »
Well, that's like saying humans are retarded because we learn slower than the Ocampa.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Elves vs Man in a new Campaign
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2011, 09:31:25 PM »
Well, that's like saying humans are retarded because we learn slower than the Ocampa.
I never argued that humans aren't retarded, because they are, usually.

Also, ocampa should have like a +6 to Int.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]