Author Topic: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.  (Read 5134 times)

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Akalsaris

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Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2011, 06:05:56 AM »
Factotum would do it.  Binder might as well.  Chameleon can often edge into T2 territory.  Of course, you won't have the power of a Wizard, but you'd have lots of versatility.

JaronK

Well, that settles that :P

I'd say a binder with the SM vestige is probably as close to a wizard's versatility without the power as you're likely to get in the T3/low T2 range.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2011, 06:34:44 AM »
The ability to consistently not die should be consider a Tier Two if not Tier One capacity.
Yeah, but that can be picked up by anyone with a three level dip.
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JaronK

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Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2011, 07:07:41 AM »
What's a (nubian) runesmith? -Chasing Amy

It's from Races of Stone.  It was printed next to the Shadowcraft Mage, so everyone ignores it because the SCM is so much more obviously broken.  But the class gets the ability to ignore all somatic components (it's a dwarf class designed for casting in heavy armor), the ability to cast spells into runes that can be triggered at any later date by anyone else (so you could cast a personal buff into a rune and give it to your party tank, then three days later they could cast it), and the ability to permanently lose an arcane spell slot to get a spell like ability one level lower twice a day (you have to pay the Xp costs once or the material costs 20 times when you do this, but it's free from then on out).

Between the ability to store unused spells in runes for later use and the ability to play havoc with spell like abilities, this class has all kinds of potential.  You need heavy armor proficiency, but this class is begging for a Binder 1/Wizard 3/Anima Mage 10 entry, binding Sovok to get heavy armor.

JaronK

BrainCandy

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Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2011, 10:06:46 AM »
For the record, I was talking about Runecaster from Forgotten Realms earlier. I got my PRC's jumbled up.

Tshern

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Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2011, 02:52:14 PM »
The ability to wear heavy armour and then using Savnok is hardly worth it. Wizards got better ways of defending themselves anyway.
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KellKheraptis

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Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2011, 03:33:59 PM »
What's a (nubian) runesmith? -Chasing Amy

It's from Races of Stone.  It was printed next to the Shadowcraft Mage, so everyone ignores it because the SCM is so much more obviously broken.  But the class gets the ability to ignore all somatic components (it's a dwarf class designed for casting in heavy armor), the ability to cast spells into runes that can be triggered at any later date by anyone else (so you could cast a personal buff into a rune and give it to your party tank, then three days later they could cast it), and the ability to permanently lose an arcane spell slot to get a spell like ability one level lower twice a day (you have to pay the Xp costs once or the material costs 20 times when you do this, but it's free from then on out).

Between the ability to store unused spells in runes for later use and the ability to play havoc with spell like abilities, this class has all kinds of potential.  You need heavy armor proficiency, but this class is begging for a Binder 1/Wizard 3/Anima Mage 10 entry, binding Sovok to get heavy armor.

JaronK

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Midnight_v

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Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2011, 03:57:49 PM »
For the record, I was talking about Runecaster from Forgotten Realms earlier. I got my PRC's jumbled up.
Honestly thats what I thought he meant too.

Quote from: Jaronk
It's from Races of Stone...
I'll give it too you it does sound good. Not sure if its one of the big 7 but I can definately see how you
feel the way you do. Party tank, though? I don't really see that much.
Every monster seems to turn and go "Hmm... look that ones wearing robes! I'll attack that one!"
We walk into a room and two giant's stand up hoisting giant rocks, my dm looks and goes "Now which one of you was the mage, again?"
So yeah being a caster in full plate might have its benefits lol.
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BrainCandy

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Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2011, 05:34:40 PM »
I've actually played a Runesmith to, they do in fact rock. While they are not quite as campaign smashing as some other PRC's, Runesmith is only 5 levels. You can squeeze it in with other PRC's. Also, if you use something like Dragonslayer you can get into Runesmith with no lost caster levels. As someone else said, the one thing Runesmith does well is make the lower tier classes in your party better. There are a ton of self only spells that other party members covet.

Personally, I only took 3 Runesmith levels with mine because I didn't have enough room to get Dragonslayer in and still get 10 levels of Incantrix.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2011, 06:12:12 PM »
Wasn't there once a way to get a per day SLA turned into an at will?
Spellthief (+ bloodlines/LC for higher levels).
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WarlockLord

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Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2011, 07:34:14 PM »
Beguiler/ Shadowcraft Mage could get quite scary and has decent versatility.

Shadowcraft Mage would boost that class well above T3, though.

JaronK

SCM is somewhere in the realm of Incantatrix, Dweomerkeeper, Tainted Sorcerer, Illithid Savant, Planar Shepherd and Beholder Mage.  Consider these the Big Seven PrC's.

And Anima Mage.  No CL loss (with the Bind Vestige/Improved Bind Vestige feats, which you can retrain once you hit the PrC), 3 free persists, an extra ninth level slot, summon monster for free every 5 rounds, and every item creation feat ever (including Craft Contingent).  It's way underloved and underrated.

JaronK

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Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2011, 09:33:00 PM »
The ability to wear heavy armour and then using Savnok is hardly worth it. Wizards got better ways of defending themselves anyway.

The armor thing isn't the good part... The nice thing about Savnok is just that you wanted Binder for Anima Mage anyway, and you needed heavy armor proficiency to get into the class.  The two seriously huge things about Runesmith are the ability to store any unused spells you like for later (and let anyone else in the party cast them when the time comes) and the ability to turn your spells into Spell Like Abilities that will then ignore material components and Xp costs and won't take longer than a Standard Action to cast.  That's hugely breakable when you play with it.  The more downtime you have, the stronger the Runesmith gets, as he can essentially turn your entire party into casters (spend a few days casting rune spells of personal buffs, then give them to your tank so when a fight starts he can self buff, for example).  It's like having the ability to make scrolls entirely for free that don't require UMD to use, with the only restrictions being you can make them two levels lower than your highest casting level and you can only make a few (based on con modifier) per day.

The armor bit is just to make you look like a tank and confuse enemies, but it really doesn't matter much.  But hey, free AC is free AC, right?

@KellKheraptis :  Never heard of one, but if such an ability exists that would be awesome, both for Runesmiths and for Factotums.

@WarlockLord:  Yeah, Anima Mages need to be on that list.  Free metamagic and binding is amazing, and if you have access to Zceryll it just goes insane.  Note that you can't get every Item Creation feat ever that way, because some have prerequisites... but you can use all the ones you qualify for, and that's still amazing.  The best part is that Tainted Sorcerer is only one level long, so you can actually do Binder 1/Wizard 3/Anima Mage 10/Tainted Sorcerer 1/Runesmith 5, getting in the full benefits of three insanely good classes.  Free metamagic all day long at no cost, insanely good casting stat, runic casting, free spell likes, and everything else?  Yeah, that's completely nuts.

JaronK

Petruchio

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Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2011, 04:48:23 AM »
The ability to consistently not die should be consider a Tier Two if not Tier One capacity.
Yeah, but that can be picked up by anyone with a three level dip.

Really? What class allows lichdom-esque abilities with a three level dip.

@JaronK: I've discovered the Runesmith some time ago as well, and I'm surprised that it doesn't get much love on these boards. The Runes themselves are invaluable, creation of a permanent Rune SLA, and the removal of all somatic components is alot for a five level class. Even without the Anima Mage, it should be more prominent in wizard builds. This class makes Dwarven wizards > Elven wizards. An archetype destroying PrC I say.

Tshern

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Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2011, 04:50:42 AM »
Ghost's Savage Species progression.
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Kajhera

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Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2011, 04:52:29 AM »
Found here.

WarlockLord

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Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2011, 07:57:35 AM »
@JaronK: I'm not too sure about the Tainted Sorceror's usage in a build like that, though.  The level-up will save and the difficulty of acquiring initial taint (I've never seen a campaign which used it) would seem to make your build a bit difficult to use in many campaigns.  The will save is easy, finding taint may not be.

JaronK

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Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2011, 08:13:49 AM »
@JaronK: I'm not too sure about the Tainted Sorceror's usage in a build like that, though.  The level-up will save and the difficulty of acquiring initial taint (I've never seen a campaign which used it) would seem to make your build a bit difficult to use in many campaigns.  The will save is easy, finding taint may not be.

Obviously you need to have the taint mechanic available if you're going to do that build, but the will save is no trouble... simply buy a Novice Ring of the Diamond Mind (3kgp) and use it to activate Moment of Perfect Mind when you level up.  No worries at all.  But yes, the PrC is often not available.  If it isn't, dip something else... IIRC, Dragonslayer would give you heavy armor proficiency in one level without loss of spellcasting, so that would allow you to not bind Sovok in that build.  That class should be generally more available.

JaronK

zook1shoe

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Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2011, 08:56:06 AM »
Is there a tier system for prestige classes?

Kajhera

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Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2011, 03:13:43 PM »
@JaronK: I'm not too sure about the Tainted Sorceror's usage in a build like that, though.  The level-up will save and the difficulty of acquiring initial taint (I've never seen a campaign which used it) would seem to make your build a bit difficult to use in many campaigns.  The will save is easy, finding taint may not be.

'A tainted sorcerer accumulates taint for casting her spells. All spells a tainted sorcerer casts are evil spells. She must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + spell level) or increase her taint score by 1.'

Once you're in, it's a one-way journey.

WarlockLord

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Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2011, 05:50:26 PM »
@JaronK: I'm not too sure about the Tainted Sorceror's usage in a build like that, though.  The level-up will save and the difficulty of acquiring initial taint (I've never seen a campaign which used it) would seem to make your build a bit difficult to use in many campaigns.  The will save is easy, finding taint may not be.

'A tainted sorcerer accumulates taint for casting her spells. All spells a tainted sorcerer casts are evil spells. She must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + spell level) or increase her taint score by 1.'

Once you're in, it's a one-way journey.

Well, yeah, I knew that.  I was referring to the 4 points of initial taint you need to get in.

Kajhera

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Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
« Reply #39 on: May 31, 2011, 06:08:13 PM »
@JaronK: I'm not too sure about the Tainted Sorceror's usage in a build like that, though.  The level-up will save and the difficulty of acquiring initial taint (I've never seen a campaign which used it) would seem to make your build a bit difficult to use in many campaigns.  The will save is easy, finding taint may not be.

'A tainted sorcerer accumulates taint for casting her spells. All spells a tainted sorcerer casts are evil spells. She must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + spell level) or increase her taint score by 1.'

Once you're in, it's a one-way journey.

Well, yeah, I knew that.  I was referring to the 4 points of initial taint you need to get in.

Then I'll cite the more relevant part - you're good once you find anything tainted. It doesn't wear out.

'For every 24 hours spent in a tainted place, or spent carrying a tainted object, a character must make a Fortitude saving throw. The base DC is 10, +5 for every consecutive 24 hours of exposure. Multiple simultaneous exposures (such as carrying a tainted weapon in a tainted place) increase the DC by +5 per source of exposure every 24 hours. If the character fails his saving throw, his taint score increases by 1.'

So it's really just the first point.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2011, 06:11:16 PM by Kajhera »