Author Topic: Help me Optimize an epic level Great Wyrm Red Dragon NPC for my DM!  (Read 6045 times)

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Eviltedzies

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My DM has asked me to come up with a NPC to use as one of his "stfu" buttons for the major factions of the world.

His main stipulations  are as follows:
* Must be a true dragon
* The dragon will start at max age category. (I debate using the epic rules on dragon progression or not.)
* The dragon must be a master of all arcane.
* In addition to his draconic HD the dragon has 21 character levels to play with.
* Wealth, Time, and Resources are effectively limitless barring bending space time.
* The dragon must be immortal and immune to the effects of time. (DM's words, not mine.)
* Sources are pretty much anything within reason.

So far the main thing I have gotten so far is

Race: Great Red Wyrm Dragon
Class: Dragon Ascendant 12/ 9 X ?


I would appreciate any ideas on how to further advance this NPC. Feel free to ask any questions and I'll try to answer them to the best of my ability.
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Prime32

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Apply the loredrake sovereign archetype from Dragons of Eberron for +2 to sorcerer casting.

Consider using the tome, hex or steel dragons, which have more of a casting focus. Or the time dragon, the most powerful dragon variety ever printed. (a great wyrm has a CR of 70 or 80)
For another route to immortality, is there any problem with the dragon being a dracolich?


For something more memorable, try throwing on some weird templates like multiheaded or making it a hybrid of multiple dragon types (preferably ones with subtypes that cancel out each others' weaknesses). Or go for the classic "albino red dragon living in an arctic volcano", though that only fools people who don't get a good look at it before they prepare a bunch of fire spells.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 06:08:26 PM by Prime32 »
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Nunkuruji

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Disregarding Epic Spellcasting,

If the dragon has had near limitless time & wealth, if he has taken levels in Ambient Tempest (bestiary of krynn), and has Craft Wonderous Item, he could have effectively personally crafted a knowstone(dr333), of every sorcerer spell ever. Thus, can cast any sorcerer spell spontaneously. (If not stockpiling them from other sources anyways)

(If it were a steel/silver/etc dragon with sorc & cleric list, it could be every sorc and cleri spell, so even better...)

ninjarabbit

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Your main weakness is having a touch AC of 2 so that needs to be addressed somehow. A level of monk would help greatly here since your wis score is 27 and can easily be boosted as well as getting improved unarmed strike and another feat like improved grapple.

Demelain

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The monk level would also qualify him for Ascetic Mage, keying the AC modifier off of Cha instead of Wis. Same modifier, but since his spells are Cha-based boosting it will also boost spells DC.
You could also grab a couple levels of Arcane Duelist for more Charisma to AC, but that might be too heavy an investment and could probably be better spent elsewhere.

Gavinfoxx

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For this DM, I'd try to get a lot of spells persisted, so the character is really simple.  Also remember, Scintillating Scales helps your touch AC IMMENSELY.
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Nunkuruji

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Your main weakness is having a touch AC of 2 so that needs to be addressed somehow. A level of monk would help greatly here since your wis score is 27 and can easily be boosted as well as getting improved unarmed strike and another feat like improved grapple.

Monk's Belt or
Scintillating Scales? (w/e spell that makes natural armor -> deflection)

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size fine / incorporeal / hiding = AC enough (especially when your expected to be the opposite of those.)
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ninjarabbit

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The main reason why I'm not recommending Scintillating Scales is because one of my favorite tactics with a dragon like this is to cast antimagic field on himself and to start grappling. Ascetic mage is a good idea.

Gavinfoxx

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Whyever would anyone cripple themselves with antimagic field? It's just a TERRIBLE TERRIBLE spell unless you want to get past certain magical field effects by walking through them, at which point you dispel the field...
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Daniel678

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Re: Help me Optimize an epic level Great Wyrm Red Dragon NPC for my DM!
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2011, 02:53:38 AM »
Whyever would anyone cripple themselves with antimagic field? It's just a TERRIBLE TERRIBLE spell unless you want to get past certain magical field effects by walking through them, at which point you dispel the field...

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Gavinfoxx

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Re: Help me Optimize an epic level Great Wyrm Red Dragon NPC for my DM!
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2011, 04:01:24 AM »
Yea, seen it. So what?  If a wizard of that level of power doesn't have several useful contingencies against a small size antimagic field, he isn't doing it right...  Besides, V banned the best school so that the strip could actually have a plot!
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Eviltedzies

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Re: Help me Optimize an epic level Great Wyrm Red Dragon NPC for my DM!
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2011, 09:28:01 AM »
I had not considered the Lordrake idea, although I like it very much. Where is the Time Dragon printed?

I am leaving epic spellcasting alone for now. He will have the feat for it, but I'll let the DM figure out what else he wants to put on it. I do not have the Bestiary of Krynn so I cannot say whether Ambient Tempest would be useful or not. I had considered the idea of using his wealth/time to allow him to cast any and all arcane spells.

As far as AC is concerned I had intented to just persistant spell Scintillating Scales. Although throwing in 1 level of monk and Ascetic Mage would be interesting.
Fine Size + Incorporeal +Hiding as an epic level uber dragon? I somehow see my DM laughing me back to the drawing board with that one. Practical, but depending on the dragon not so reasonable.

As for Antimagic Fields. I had intended to take three levels in Cleric or Archivist in order to take Initiate of Mystra.

I had intended the NPC to just persistant spell a massive number of useful spells at a rediculously high CL so as to prevent dispelling.
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Demelain

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Re: Help me Optimize an epic level Great Wyrm Red Dragon NPC for my DM!
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2011, 11:22:27 AM »
As far as AC is concerned I had intented to just persistant spell Scintillating Scales. Although throwing in 1 level of monk and Ascetic Mage would be interesting.

The Monk level actually isn't even necessary. The feat requires Improved Unarmed Strike, which is a feat, and it says, "If you would normally be allowed to add your Wisdom bonus to AC (such as for a unarmored, unencumbered monk), you instead add your Charisma bonus (if any) to your AC." So you could drop the Monk level if you like and just grab a Monk Belt. Or collar. Or whatever non-humanoids wear. Either way, you would get back the CL but lose one of your feats. Your call.

MalcolmSprye

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Re: Help me Optimize an epic level Great Wyrm Red Dragon NPC for my DM!
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2011, 12:46:52 PM »
I don't know the requirements for Initiate of Mystra:  dunno the book... but could you qualify simply by NOT taking loredrake? Taking the archetype sacrifices your inherent clerical spell casting.  2 bonus levels of Sorcerer < 3 levels spent on Cleric which you could simply use as sorcerer levels if you want anyway.
I had not considered the Lordrake idea, although I like it very much. Where is the Time Dragon printed?

I am leaving epic spellcasting alone for now. He will have the feat for it, but I'll let the DM figure out what else he wants to put on it. I do not have the Bestiary of Krynn so I cannot say whether Ambient Tempest would be useful or not. I had considered the idea of using his wealth/time to allow him to cast any and all arcane spells.

As far as AC is concerned I had intented to just persistant spell Scintillating Scales. Although throwing in 1 level of monk and Ascetic Mage would be interesting.
Fine Size + Incorporeal +Hiding as an epic level uber dragon? I somehow see my DM laughing me back to the drawing board with that one. Practical, but depending on the dragon not so reasonable.

As for Antimagic Fields. I had intended to take three levels in Cleric or Archivist in order to take Initiate of Mystra.

I had intended the NPC to just persistant spell a massive number of useful spells at a rediculously high CL so as to prevent dispelling.

Amechra

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Re: Help me Optimize an epic level Great Wyrm Red Dragon NPC for my DM!
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2011, 06:11:56 PM »
If you get Intitiate of Mystra, take Permanent Emanation (Antimagic Field). Take that, everyone!

If homebrew is allowed, go for a bit of ToB for the Breath of Fire discipline (strikes using your breath weapon...)

I would suggest grabbing those tasty, tasty feats from Dragons of Eberron. You know, the one that nabs you Change Shape? Then grab Warshaper.

Another fun thing to do is grab Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. Persistify that spell that gives you 1 temporary action point every round. Use your FUCK YOU options as often as you want.

Grab a couple levels of wizards, and go for Ultimate Magus. There, you just got awesome powers, and if you can get 6th level wizard spells, you can go for Arcane Recharge for spells of 6th level or below.
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Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
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nijineko

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Re: Help me Optimize an epic level Great Wyrm Red Dragon NPC for my DM!
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2011, 07:21:24 PM »
i suggest using the dragon ascendant prestige to make the dragon immortal.
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Mixster

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Re: Help me Optimize an epic level Great Wyrm Red Dragon NPC for my DM!
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2011, 10:24:10 PM »
If you class grant spellcasting, would those levels stack with the sorcerer levels you already have?

If so, an Incantatrix Red Dragon would be some of the scariest monster ever. Especially since it can make it's buffs persisted.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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Re: Help me Optimize an epic level Great Wyrm Red Dragon NPC for my DM!
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2011, 10:30:50 PM »
As far as AC is concerned I had intented to just persistant spell Scintillating Scales. Although throwing in 1 level of monk and Ascetic Mage would be interesting.

The Monk level actually isn't even necessary. The feat requires Improved Unarmed Strike, which is a feat, and it says, "If you would normally be allowed to add your Wisdom bonus to AC (such as for a unarmored, unencumbered monk), you instead add your Charisma bonus (if any) to your AC." So you could drop the Monk level if you like and just grab a Monk Belt. Or collar. Or whatever non-humanoids wear. Either way, you would get back the CL but lose one of your feats. Your call.
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JaronK

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Re: Help me Optimize an epic level Great Wyrm Red Dragon NPC for my DM!
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2011, 09:28:21 AM »
What about going crazy and using Anima Mage?  You've already got the Sorcerer levels to dive right in, and epic Binder powers are actually really cool.  So, that could be worth doing.

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