Author Topic: What do Epic Mundanes do?  (Read 10891 times)

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Bauglir

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2011, 02:07:53 AM »
There are other SoDs that don't have the Death descriptor. I know the Pyrokineticist Heat Death ability doesn't, and a bit of Ctrl-Fing has gotten me Final Rebuke in Spell Compendium (it is Fear and Mind-affecting, though, but that's not the point). You're probably right about core spells, though. Too tired to be really exhaustive about this.
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Daniel678

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2011, 03:55:50 AM »
One question that has been raised is how can a mundane survive in past level 20 against optimized opponents. I think that it is possible as long as the mundane has all of the immunities, great stealth skills, evasion and mettle, auto-success on saving throws, and immunity/high resistance to health damage.

One build that gets most of these things would be

hexblade 4/Cleric 1/Prestige Paladin 2/Occult Slayer 5/Bone Knight 10/Void Incarnate 10

This build doesn't quite autosuccess on saves but it's saves are very strong. It's biggest weakness out of the box is HP damage. That would need to be fixed with some friendly spells. Note: It needs evasion and slippery mind from items.

veekie

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2011, 04:19:28 AM »
Actually, it's arguably impossible to become immune to Implosion, due to it's lack of a [Death] descriptor (which every single other SoD has).  That said, typical save-boosting tactics still apply.
You simply have to be not corporeal.

Cue thread drive by :D Ghosts as deemed mundane by the original poster.

Swordsage gets a maneuver to become incorporeal. Shadow Hand 8 Counter, One With Shadow. Become incorporeal for 1 round as an immediate action.
Ghosts could be a natural end state for an epic level mundane!
The mind transcends the body.
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SorO_Lost

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2011, 01:20:34 PM »
This build doesn't quite autosuccess on saves but it's saves are very strong. It's biggest weakness out of the box is HP damage. That would need to be fixed with some friendly spells. Note: It needs evasion and slippery mind from items.

Paladin 2 / Warblade 3 / Crimson Scourge 8 / Shiba Protector 1 / Iaijitsu Master 5 / Marshal 1
Immunity to damage, Wisdom to attack/damage/ac, Charisma to saves (covers maneuver expenditure), initiative twice and added per die of iaijitsu strike. Tight on feats though. Notably, not epic.

Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Unbeliever

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2011, 03:09:11 PM »
I once challenged myself to build the simplest, epic-viable build I could do w/out heavy spellcasting.  It was almost entirely Paladin:  Battle Blessing + Ride-By Attack + Find the Gap + Power Attack ... and that was mostly it.  I think it also acquired really good reach (30 feet or thereabouts) and had Stand Still and the Steadfast Boots. 

Paladin w/ an epic charisma covers most of your saves, and you could mix in Hexblade or various other matters to taste.  Sure, you'll fail every so often, but get a few items that give you a re-roll once per day, and that should usually take care of it.  Unless the enemy has pounce, you're only subject to 1 attack, and you can get quite a good AC (at least as good as any PC can get) and typically Stand Still will stymie them in melee combat anyway.  You've got only 1 attack, but it's a good one, below ubercharger damage but still high enough to be credible. 

The build worked for the session or two that I remember us playing w/ it.  And, that's not counting stuff like Devotion feats (I don't think they existed at the time).  Crucially, though, it's assuming enemies that are essentially from the books -- i.e., the opponents aren't really optimized.  It's also heavily gear dependent, Freedom of Movement being a necessity, but that's hardly unique:  all D&D characters are, and epic ones just moreso. 

Lycanthromancer

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #45 on: May 28, 2011, 06:41:55 PM »
I once challenged myself to build the simplest, epic-viable build I could do w/out heavy spellcasting.  It was almost entirely Paladin:  Battle Blessing + Ride-By Attack + Find the Gap + Power Attack ... and that was mostly it.  I think it also acquired really good reach (30 feet or thereabouts) and had Stand Still and the Steadfast Boots. 

Paladin w/ an epic charisma covers most of your saves, and you could mix in Hexblade or various other matters to taste.  Sure, you'll fail every so often, but get a few items that give you a re-roll once per day, and that should usually take care of it.  Unless the enemy has pounce, you're only subject to 1 attack, and you can get quite a good AC (at least as good as any PC can get) and typically Stand Still will stymie them in melee combat anyway.  You've got only 1 attack, but it's a good one, below ubercharger damage but still high enough to be credible. 

The build worked for the session or two that I remember us playing w/ it.  And, that's not counting stuff like Devotion feats (I don't think they existed at the time).  Crucially, though, it's assuming enemies that are essentially from the books -- i.e., the opponents aren't really optimized.  It's also heavily gear dependent, Freedom of Movement being a necessity, but that's hardly unique:  all D&D characters are, and epic ones just moreso. 
But paladins are casters.

If 'non primary' casters are available, psywars can kick ass in epic, especially if they decide to multiclass for more pp.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #46 on: May 28, 2011, 06:55:45 PM »
Man I miss school already. Now that LYcan is out we have to hear about Psywars on every thread.
Look we get it, psionics is broken and better than everything else. thanks for reminding us until we can't get it out of our head. Truce?

It's partial casters are allowed, I back a Bard concept.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Lycanthromancer

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #47 on: May 28, 2011, 06:59:04 PM »
Man I miss school already. Now that LYcan is out we have to hear about Psywars on every thread.
Look we get it, psionics is broken and better than everything else. thanks for reminding us until we can't get it out of our head. Truce?

It's partial casters are allowed, I back a Bard concept.
Hey, I have psionics, Sinfire Titan has incarnum, and you have...whatever it is you actually do around here.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #48 on: May 28, 2011, 07:09:42 PM »
Man I miss school already. Now that LYcan is out we have to hear about Psywars on every thread.
Look we get it, psionics is broken and better than everything else. thanks for reminding us until we can't get it out of our head. Truce?

It's partial casters are allowed, I back a Bard concept.
Hey, I have psionics, Sinfire Titan has incarnum, and you have...whatever it is you actually do around here.
Mostly gishes (like the bard), I think I am the advocater for Stormcaster though too.

I just very things enough you don't hear about them all the time. I can't think of a single time Sin mentioned Incarnum so he is doing a pretty good job plugging it in too.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

AleksanderTheGreat

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #49 on: May 28, 2011, 07:37:37 PM »
Man I miss school already. Now that LYcan is out we have to hear about Psywars on every thread.
Look we get it, psionics is broken and better than everything else. thanks for reminding us until we can't get it out of our head. Truce?

It's partial casters are allowed, I back a Bard concept.
Hey, I have psionics, Sinfire Titan has incarnum, and you have...whatever it is you actually do around here.
Yeah, that's fine, just don't do an "Endarire and his Hood" thing. :P I swear, if you start linking to your PsyWar build every time you mention it, I will start calling you Endarire The 2nd. :P
Quote from: Sephirothsword117
Quote from: Solo
Optimizing is the antithesis of roleplaying because it takes focus away from the important parts of the game.
I'm inclined to disagree. People work hard on there characters, there personality, back ground, appearance, so forth. No one wants there character that they have invested time, energy, thought, and probably emotion in to be killed because they didn't take strong enough feats or skills or spells or what have you.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #50 on: May 28, 2011, 07:48:48 PM »
Man I miss school already. Now that LYcan is out we have to hear about Psywars on every thread.
Look we get it, psionics is broken and better than everything else. thanks for reminding us until we can't get it out of our head. Truce?

It's partial casters are allowed, I back a Bard concept.
Hey, I have psionics, Sinfire Titan has incarnum, and you have...whatever it is you actually do around here.
Yeah, that's fine, just don't do an "Endarire and his Hood" thing. :P I swear, if you start linking to your PsyWar build every time you mention it, I will start calling you Endarire The 2nd. :P
I only do that occasionally.

Thing is, psionics is the answer often enough that it IS a reasonable response. Of course, the same could potentially be said about his hood builds as well...
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

kalaskaagathas

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #51 on: May 28, 2011, 10:23:17 PM »
I, for the purposes of this discussion, don't thing Paladins (or PsyWars, for that matter) count as mundanes.  They have very limited casting, yes, but that casting gives them options people without casting do not enjoy (and in this I include the Factotum, mainly because the campaign I'm playing in which brought on this question strips them of their casting) though I may have to grant that Paladins and Rangers (but not Mystic Rangers) don't get enough spellcasting to truly be casters.

Midnight_v

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #52 on: May 29, 2011, 12:36:39 PM »
Man I miss school already. Now that LYcan is out we have to hear about Psywars on every thread.
Look we get it, psionics is broken and better than everything else. thanks for reminding us until we can't get it out of our head. Truce?

It's partial casters are allowed, I back a Bard concept.
Hey, I have psionics, Sinfire Titan has incarnum, and you have...whatever it is you actually do around here.
... I have barbarians. . .  :( ...  :bigeye 
 :lol
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Midnight_v

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #54 on: May 29, 2011, 07:05:36 PM »
Thing is, psionics is the answer often enough that it IS a reasonable response. Of course, the same could potentially be said about his hood builds as well...

Pun-pun can answer anything. Does that mean that Pun-Pun is a reasonable answer?
Complaining constantly about people preferences apparently constitutes a reasonable answer as well.
So instead of starting attack someone who's trying to be helpful instead of being a dick (like you're doing btw) why not have a fucking discussion about what epic mundanes do? Or at least what you'd suggest.
Psionics work lycanthro if that's you're thing keep it up, suggest it as much as you can. If you love psywars scream it from the mountains.
At least you're saying something other than "Whine about how the games not what "I" want it to be".

I've been looking at the epic barb for awhile I'm quite amused to find epic rage feat: Terrifying Rage.  :twitch
Sad thing is ... epic mundanes suffer because them main epic book was written early on before people realized the problems with the game.
I suggest some of these questoins might be better answered by dicefreaks sometimes. They know epic. Iirc
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nijineko

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #55 on: May 29, 2011, 07:28:07 PM »
depends on the scale of the question.

psionics scale rather nicely. and it frequently does address a given issue more precisely than other options.

dicefreaks has some useful stuff... when they aren't resetting or relocating yet again. ^^
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kalaskaagathas

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #56 on: May 29, 2011, 07:33:15 PM »
depends on the scale of the question.

psionics scale rather nicely. and it frequently does address a given issue more precisely than other options.

dicefreaks has some useful stuff... when they aren't resetting or relocating yet again. ^^

How would you describe the various scales the question might take?

Psionics aren't mundane enough for my purposes.  I think they scale well because they are similar in power to Arcane and Divine magic.

What is dicefreaks?


Midnight_v

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #58 on: May 29, 2011, 07:54:26 PM »
Quote
They're infamous for large homebrew projects.
True. I only brought it up because they seem to have actual rules understanding of the epic system(such as it is) as well as
expanded rules for epic play.
I'd like to help more but I feel like honestly... mundanes are going to go into a whole mess of item optimization.
Which thats likely needed, in reality, its a situation of Ip'ing you're char.
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SorO_Lost

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #59 on: May 29, 2011, 08:22:18 PM »
I've been looking at the epic barb for awhile I'm quite amused to find epic rage feat: Terrifying Rage.  :twitch
Most of the epic class focused feats are pretty cool. However, PrCing out means you lose them not PrCing out means you suck worse than nonepic mundanes. If anyone is being a dick, it's WotC for promising us cake.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]