Author Topic: Tome of Battle in Pathfinder  (Read 7035 times)

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Fadier

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Tome of Battle in Pathfinder
« on: May 26, 2011, 10:29:00 PM »
I am going to start a new DnD game in a few weeks and will be using pathfinder (mainly due to the newer DnD players only have played pathfinder and I do not want to confuse them). The slight urk I have with this is that the NPCs/plot revolves around ToB and when using pathfinder Ballance, Jump and Tumble are condensed into Acrobatics and Concentration is no longer a skill. This means that Diamond Mind has no assoicated skill and almost half the disiciplines revolve around Acrobatics.

So I have been looking at subistuting the Skills for Desert Wind (usually Tumble), Diamond Mind (Concentration) and Tiger Claw (Jump) leaving Iron Heart and Stone Dragon (Balance) as Acrobatics. I think I will be using Climb for Desert Wind, Martial Lore for Diamond Mind (finally a good use for Martial Lore!) but am stuck on Desert Wind.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what skill I should assoicate with Desert Wind?
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veekie

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Re: Tome of Battle in Pathfinder
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2011, 10:52:38 PM »
Desert Wind - Thematically, Acrobatics strongly fits the class concept, basically moving around unimpeded.
Diamond Mind - This one here, personally, I can see a good case for Perception. Diamond Mind strikes have a strong emphasis on sensing the 'key points' to strike at.
Iron Heart - Acrobatics fits less here, since it's a focus on stillness and stability. Sense Motive is the closest skill to the themes of it, but Martial Lore fits well too(as the Badass Normal school).
Shadow Hand - Stealth, hands down.
Stone Dragon - This one could actually go in for Climb as to the earth related themes, you mainly use Climb in environments where you can use Stone Dragon anyway(touching the ground)
Tiger Claw - Acrobatics remains an excellent thematic fit

I'm going mainly by their theme associations here, since of the affected schools, only Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw and Desert Wind use their skills at all. and only Tiger Claw and Desert Wind use them as the skills are normally used(tumbling around and jumping).
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Prime32

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Re: Tome of Battle in Pathfinder
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2011, 11:15:46 PM »
I ran into similar issues when porting dragonmarks.

Autohypnosis is a possibility for Diamond Mind.
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The tier system in a nutshell:
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Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Fadier

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Re: Tome of Battle in Pathfinder
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2011, 11:49:20 PM »
Thanks for the quick replys guys, I was not expecting such a quick responce on the PF boards.

Autohypnosis is a possibility for Diamond Mind.

It does seem to fit thematically but my only hesitation is that Autohypnosis is already a really good skill, does it really need more power?

Desert Wind - Thematically, Acrobatics strongly fits the class concept, basically moving around unimpeded.

Reading the blurb for Desert Wind I have to agree that Acrobatics is the best skill for it.

Diamond Mind - This one here, personally, I can see a good case for Perception. Diamond Mind strikes have a strong emphasis on sensing the 'key points' to strike at.

Quote from: Diamond Mind description
Diamond Mind maneuvers allow a warrior to use her cunning, intellect, and feel for the battlefield against her enemies. Time seems to flow slower to a Diamond Mind initiate.

To me the description is less perception and more instinct for battle, and as Martial Lore does not have a nice definition (if there is one in ToB I cannot find it) I think I will extend its range to things like battle tactics and and military strategies still making this the best skill IMHO.

Quote from: Iron Heart description
The Iron Heart discipline focuses on pure weapon skill. Its students learn to complete fighting maneuvers that border on the supernatural.

Giving this another thought what about using Perform (Weapon Drill)? That seems to encompass the description and Iron Heart does not actively use it in its maneuvers.

Stone Dragon - This one could actually go in for Climb as to the earth related themes, you mainly use Climb in environments where you can use Stone Dragon anyway(touching the ground)

I like your suggestion to use climb for Stone Dragon, I think its a great idea.


In summary this is my current set up:
Desert Wind - Acrobatics
Diamond Mind - Martial Lore
Iron Heart - Perform (Weapon Drill)
Shadow Hand - Stealth (easy)
Stone Dragon - Climb
Tiger Claw - Acrobatics
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Gavinfoxx

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Re: Tome of Battle in Pathfinder
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2011, 09:29:35 PM »
FYI Knowledge History is battle tactics and strategy, both in 3.5e and in Pathfinder, I believe.
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kevin_video

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Re: Tome of Battle in Pathfinder
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2011, 01:40:38 PM »
Don't know how important this is, but I was reading that a good suggestion for porting ToB over to Pathfinder was to also increase the Crusader's HD to d12.
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Fadier

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Re: Tome of Battle in Pathfinder
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2011, 12:19:22 AM »
For most of it it is not important but for things like the Diamond Mind save replacers and the Martial Study feat (gaining a class skill) it is.

As for the Crusader getting a d12 HD I would think it should not, the Warblade already has that so its not like the d12 was ignored. Apart from tweaking the skills does the ToB really need to change the classes? They are still better than the martial base classes, atleast the non-caster ones.
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veekie

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Re: Tome of Battle in Pathfinder
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2011, 07:41:44 PM »
Generally speaking, no and yes.
No in that its fully functional and of comparable strength to the melee classes.
Yes in that if you follow the caster classes trend, you would probably wind up with school specific bonus abilities.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Fadier

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Re: Tome of Battle in Pathfinder
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2011, 04:54:35 AM »
Generally speaking, no and yes.
No in that its fully functional and of comparable strength to the melee classes.
Yes in that if you follow the caster classes trend, you would probably wind up with school specific bonus abilities.


I can see what you mean, you can make parrallels to the Wizard with the Swordsage (as Discipline Focus is the only thing that is comparable to School Specialisation) and by extension the Sorcerer to Warblade/Crusader.
But I think that they already have things like bloodlines and school specalisation; Crusader has the delayed damage pool/smite/cha to will/re-roll saves; Swordsage has Quick to Act/Discipline Focus; and the Warblade has the Battle line/Bonus feats.
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veekie

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Re: Tome of Battle in Pathfinder
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2011, 09:54:51 PM »
^^
Not quite, I mean school specific specials.
Like a Warblade with Tiger Claw specialization gaining natural weapons, etc.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Prime32

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Re: Tome of Battle in Pathfinder
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2011, 12:47:32 AM »
I'd say more along the lines of rogue talents (though gained less frequently), with natural weapons, unarmed progression and Weapon Focus being options.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2011, 12:49:03 AM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Tome of Battle in Pathfinder
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2011, 01:01:53 AM »
Well, since they already have a casting mechanic I figure a Bloodline/School Specialization/Domain Powers gig fits better.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Fadier

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Re: Tome of Battle in Pathfinder
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2011, 02:58:33 AM »
Well if you wanted to differentiate between I guess you could do something like this:

Give the Swordsage something like School Specalisation with one school

Warblade gaining some bloodline? (My only issue with bloodline specifically is it does not go well with any of the classes but could be re-flavoured in)

And the Crusader some form of domain power?


Alternate idea give one of them some maneuver version on Metamagic (Metamaneuver).
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StreamOfTheSky

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Re: Tome of Battle in Pathfinder
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2011, 02:51:15 PM »
I think Warblade and Crusader would be fine as is in PF.  Swordsage might need some help, being a squishier class that relies (IME) on tumbling around and skirmishing with strike maneuvers to avoid the enemy's full attack.  With PF's tumble nerf, that's simply not possible anymore, and I question the usefulness/survivability of the Swordsage as a result.  And yes, I know Monks and Rogues suffer the same problem.  Judging by how they fare in PF (worst classes in the game by a fair margin), I'd say my fears are warranted.

veekie

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Re: Tome of Battle in Pathfinder
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2011, 07:32:45 PM »
Well if you wanted to differentiate between I guess you could do something like this:

Give the Swordsage something like School Specalisation with one school

Warblade gaining some bloodline? (My only issue with bloodline specifically is it does not go well with any of the classes but could be re-flavoured in)

And the Crusader some form of domain power?
I think the Swordsage can do with a discipline mastery thing. They get to access abilities from a variety of disciplines every 4 levels or so, and for having access to two disciplines they get Discipline Synergy, which nets another bonus.
Warblade can use a Path method, just pick a discipline, get some bonuses with it, and special abilities for the Path as they level.
Crusader...Domain Powers do sound nice.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."