Author Topic: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project  (Read 8923 times)

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Tshern

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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #40 on: May 26, 2011, 12:22:26 AM »
Assuming a subforum will be arranged even brainstorming will be really helpful. You know, two minds think better than one and so forth. I am not asking for signatures or anything, so we shall see how this thing goes forward.

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b100d_arrowz

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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2011, 12:25:17 AM »
I'll offer whatever aid I can, I'm used to trying to explain why certain things work and why the monk is terrible to my players, but I'm not an expert for things like high levels of optimization yet.
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Tshern

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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2011, 12:34:59 AM »
No superb expertise is required, for high or low levels. Especially since anyone can contribute to whatever aspect they feel most appropriate and comfortable with.

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veekie

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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2011, 02:29:28 AM »
being monk unarmed damage, why direct damage spells are generally inferior
This one is fundamentally the same root issue, scaling of average damage, which is not obvious to most.
Just demonstrate how each added dice/increased dice size adds to damage and compare to the increase by Power Attack, weapon enhancements and strength increases(on the low, linear end) and the increase by Leap Attack and other doublers(on the high, exponential end). Light on the math if possible, people can be concussed by excess mathery.
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Unbeliever

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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2011, 03:16:22 AM »
So basically also a list of different things you should have or be able to fight against at any given level should be included? Or at least a rough guideline, since there is no real consensus about most of those things.
Yeah, kinda.  I often go to the MM and pick out a bruiser of roughly the right CR and check his AC, to hits, etc. and see how I stack up. 

I think it's good to just list the conventional wisdom on a lot of things, which itself should only be a few pages, w/ the proviso that ymmv depending on the level of optimization present in a given campaign.  For example, I played a high level direct damage sorc and had a ball in a recent campaign, but we were being relatively restrained and he was a pretty optimized blaster. 

Actually, w/ the possible exception of some terminology or basic game concepts (action economy, etc.), and maybe some very fundamental ideas (the problem w/ monks is that they have no synergy between their class abilities, emphasis on role v. class, etc.) I think just exemplars of various archetypal builds could go a long way.  Something like, "this is what a really solid basic blaster, tripper, power attacker looks like, and here's why ..."  Although perhaps those who actually intend on using this handbook would prefer a different approach.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2011, 04:06:46 AM »
Common mistakes should be there too.

For example, enchantment stacking.  A weapon with twelve +1 enchantments doesn't cost 24,000 gp.  Seen that one several times.
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Agita

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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #46 on: May 26, 2011, 04:53:36 AM »
I'll volunteer to write up a part of it or a few, depending on my business at the time (yeah, right).
Also, there's been some talk about "average values"... well, there's a list like that already. Also in pdf form for portability and readability. It's only got values from the SRD at the moment, though.
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mesher

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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #47 on: May 26, 2011, 07:03:36 AM »
Hi guys,

I'm available to help build that Handbook.

I think builds are extremly useful to newcomers as they provide them with a practical way to sum up all the theory contained in this board and also offers an easy way to try/feel and share with other players/DM what optimization can effectively do.

So I'm in to help :)

veekie

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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #48 on: May 26, 2011, 10:03:31 AM »
Well, if anything, preconstructed builds are a bad way to introduce people to CO, it gives the impression(albeit not a false one) that there can be a best build, and limits them, while also giving antioptimization DMs more fuel for the fire.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

mesher

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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #49 on: May 26, 2011, 11:24:13 AM »
Hi Veekie,

I get your point but the keyword here for me is "Newcomer" which implies a player with very limited or even non existing basic optimization skills. If you are already facing guys not knowing what to do with a simple non optimized character (for exemple a wizard who thinks alter self is just a way to change your appearance...and I know a lot of them), imagine how you can lose them with lots of theoretical advices (all relevant and exact) and no clear guidance/summary on how to build a character with all these options (final goal of every optimization, no?) I think you need to help people reach level 1 optimization skills (from newcomer to apprentice) prior to have them able to understand/balance all the interactions you can theoretically create with all the options CO is offering (level 2 from apprentice to Initiate as I would call such a person). It's a matter also of what you call a "Newcomer" but my view is to aim at the least skilled persons to have the lowest entrance barrier possible.

To get into details

Quote
preconstructed builds are a bad way to introduce people to CO

I agree so that's why these builds should be offered at the end of all the "theoretical" CO discussions.

Quote
it gives the impression(albeit not a false one) that there can be a best build, and limits them

Despite the fact it could be the case for certain builds, it's up to us in that Handbook to be clear on what we are offering. Someting like: "here are some iconic builds for you to get inspired by, but feel free to test your own combinations once you have experienced the practical aspect of what we discussed here".

Quote
also giving antioptimization DMs more fuel for the fire

We will never achieve to convince a DM to play with players/characters he doesn't like, so it should not be a goal for that guide. We need to focus on objective elements (rules with maybe a distinction between RAI and RAW) and not subjective one (Rollplay vs Roleplay, what is fun or not...)

Let's discuss :)

veekie

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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #50 on: May 26, 2011, 12:27:46 PM »
Well, in that case, yes, but a Level 1 optimized build will need to be the type shown. No complex class combos, using a minimum of books(as listed on what DMs tend to ban on page 2), basically, how to create a competent character, not just a strong one.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

b100d_arrowz

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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #51 on: June 12, 2011, 02:22:19 PM »
Any news on this guys?
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