Author Topic: What makes the Psychic Warrior worth it?  (Read 10295 times)

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Endarire

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What makes the Psychic Warrior worth it?
« on: May 23, 2011, 09:37:00 PM »
Preface
I've already read the Psychic Warrior Handbook.  This isn't addressed there.

Post
I see the PsyWar as a 1- or 2-level dip for feats and PP.  Still, some love it and I'm curious why.

Which powers and feat combos make a Psychic Warrior especially fun and potent to play?
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Tshern

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Re: What makes the Psychic Warrior worth it?
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2011, 09:41:16 PM »
I hate referencing builds, but: This might help.

Also, what is up with these threads of yours?

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X-Codes

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Re: What makes the Psychic Warrior worth it?
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2011, 10:11:51 PM »
Linked Synchronicity is obvious, and requires 4-5 levels of Psychic Warrior to pull off (Expanded Knowledge).  The rest of the Psychic Warrior power list lends itself well to playing a gish.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: What makes the Psychic Warrior worth it?
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2011, 11:06:25 PM »
The psychic warrior is a gish in a can. It's potentially the most powerful of the T3 classes, and can easily be bumped into T2 range if you know what you're doing.

It overcomes every single one of the fighter's problems, and can keep up with the T1 classes in high level play in most games.
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shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
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Endarire

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Re: What makes the Psychic Warrior worth it?
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2011, 01:32:06 AM »
What level does the PsyWar become noticeably spiffy, even compared to a martial adept?
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Lycanthromancer

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Re: What makes the Psychic Warrior worth it?
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2011, 01:58:51 AM »
What level does the PsyWar become noticeably spiffy, even compared to a martial adept?
Level 1. They can grab Psionic Minor Creation, after all.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

X-Codes

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Re: What makes the Psychic Warrior worth it?
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2011, 03:11:02 AM »
What level does the PsyWar become noticeably spiffy, even compared to a martial adept?
Level 1. They can grab Psionic Minor Creation, after all.
True, I forgot about Hidden Talent.

So, at level 1 they can grab such powers as Psionic Minor Creation, Synchronicity, and a few other goodies that Psions get.

oslecamo

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Re: What makes the Psychic Warrior worth it?
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2011, 07:39:45 AM »
I hate referencing builds, but: This might help.

I must point out that's not a legal build. Lycan claims he can use the developing new powers rules to learn metamorphosis.

Except he cannot.

Independent Research

A psion also can research a power independently, duplicating an existing power or creating an entirely new one. If characters are allowed to develop new powers, use these guidelines to handle the situation.

Any kind of manifester can create a new power. The research involved requires access to a retreat conducive to uninterrupted meditation. Research involves an expenditure of 200 XP per week and takes one week per level of the power. At the end of that time, the character makes a Psicraft check (DC 10 + spell level). If that check succeeds, the character learns the new power if her research produced a viable power.


So only a psion can research powers that are duplicates of others. The pshychic warrior can only research completely new powers.

And even if he does something like "warrior metamorphosis" that has just a minor diference from metamorphosis, guess what? It's still not metamorphosis, and thus he cannot craft the skin of proteus.

Neither he can use expanded knowledge to pick that power up at 12th level. That makes the main points of that build ilegal by RAW.

So aparently what makes the Psychic Warrior worth it is munchkining your way trough obscure rules. That's not something to brag about I believe.

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Re: What makes the Psychic Warrior worth it?
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2011, 08:27:06 AM »
I hate referencing builds, but: This might help.

I must point out that's not a legal build. Lycan claims he can use the developing new powers rules to learn metamorphosis.

Except he cannot.

Independent Research

A psion also can research a power independently, duplicating an existing power or creating an entirely new one. If characters are allowed to develop new powers, use these guidelines to handle the situation.

Any kind of manifester can create a new power. The research involved requires access to a retreat conducive to uninterrupted meditation. Research involves an expenditure of 200 XP per week and takes one week per level of the power. At the end of that time, the character makes a Psicraft check (DC 10 + spell level). If that check succeeds, the character learns the new power if her research produced a viable power.


So only a psion can research powers that are duplicates of others. The pshychic warrior can only research completely new powers.

And even if he does something like "warrior metamorphosis" that has just a minor diference from metamorphosis, guess what? It's still not metamorphosis, and thus he cannot craft the skin of proteus.

Neither he can use expanded knowledge to pick that power up at 12th level. That makes the main points of that build ilegal by RAW.

So aparently what makes the Psychic Warrior worth it is munchkining your way trough obscure rules. That's not something to brag about I believe.

The only thing that this changes is that one particular trick can't be done until 14th level (when the Psychic Warrior *can* grab Metamorphosis with Expanded Knowledge).

Unbeliever

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Re: What makes the Psychic Warrior worth it?
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2011, 02:38:07 PM »
What level does the PsyWar become noticeably spiffy, even compared to a martial adept?
Level 1. They can grab Psionic Minor Creation, after all.
Yeah, though this says more about the power of Psionic Minor Creation than the class itself.  Although that's something that comes up whenever we compare classes or talk about build viability.  But, I agree w/ the general sentiment, PsyWars are playable from level 1 to 20 and pretty well-balanced throughout, even/especially when you restrain yourself from some of the obvious brokenness in the system. 

Things that I like about the PsyWar are its action economy abilities like Synchronicity and Link Power and that it seems to have more flexibility than the Duskblade, which seems to be the obvious of comparison.  Ideally, I would like to see Warblade, Duskblade, and PsyWar as different takes on a related set of character concepts, each w/ advantages and disadvantages or a different mechanical feel. 

Other things I like about the PsyWar is that you can multiclass w/ it, especially if you let any gishy wizard class advance psionic progression.  I haven't played one in forever, but a friend of mine seemed to struggle w/ having relatively few power points.  That's the sort of thing cunning optimization can mitigate, but I don't think you should have to resort to it automatically.  I'd also say that I've typically been disappointed w/ the ranged damage of PsyWarriors, though I could be missing the "good" ones.  Their psionics are really there to buff, and when done right can be spectacular.  The aforementioned friend turned himself Gargantuan or Huge and out-grappled the BBEG one session, which was pretty damn impressive.  But, having a ranged or blaster-type option, even if it's only accessible via a feat or prestige class (and for all I know this is the case), would be a nice way of rounding out the class.

SorO_Lost

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Re: What makes the Psychic Warrior worth it?
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2011, 02:48:39 PM »
Q: What makes the Psychic Warrior worth it?
A: Psionic's infinite PP & PP recovery tips.

Edit: Oh hey, how does a Psychic Fighter get Minor Creation at level 1? Expanded Knowledge can't be used, you are way to freaking poor to pay for a 9th level power (with XP costs) to be manifested on you, and not only can you not afford one of those knowstone things but you have lack Use Psionic Device as a class skill and probably dumped charisma.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 02:54:40 PM by SorO_Lost »
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
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Shiki

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Re: What makes the Psychic Warrior worth it?
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2011, 02:58:03 PM »
^That's not something only a PsyWar can do, and should not really be the reason why the class is playable.

PsyWar is worth it since it has two things: full ML and up to 6th level powers, and plenty of bonus psionic feats to customize itself. Else, it sucks big times.

Edit: To reply to the edit part, someone already pointed out Hidden Talent (EPH p.67) as a mean to get Minor Creation, Psionic above.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 03:00:50 PM by Shiki »
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SorO_Lost

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Re: What makes the Psychic Warrior worth it?
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2011, 03:08:44 PM »
PsyWar is worth it since it has two things: full ML and up to 6th level powers, and plenty of bonus psionic feats to customize itself. Else, it sucks big times.
Well, umm... Hey look, Psionic Minor Creation & Metamorphosis are not Psychic Fighter powers either.

PF is just a bum, he lives off what other people get.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Sir Giacomo

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Re: What makes the Psychic Warrior worth it?
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2011, 03:17:52 PM »
In agreement with Oslecamo and SorO_Lost here.

For those interested in a discussion of the many question marks (to put it mildly) of Lycanthromancer's psionic warrior build, have a look at this thread.

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Kajhera

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Re: What makes the Psychic Warrior worth it?
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2011, 03:36:05 PM »
I love a 2-level dip into Psychic Warrior. +1.5BAB, decent hit die, psionic feats, couple more or less useful powers, and the ability to gain Psionic Focus and take 15 on a concentration check all certainly appeal.

The mantled Psychic Warrior is nice for spending longer in it, since you can grab Metamorphosis or Temporal Acceleration from the higher-level lists.

Long-lasting magic natural weapons are cool, excellent size-increasing power's cool, lack of power points is not so much, it can combine with tashalatora for a monk build I can actually understand how to play effectively... Psionic Lion's Charge gives you pounce as a potential feature, which is nice if you don't want to dip CC barbarian. Vigor + Empathic Transfer lets you heal if quite needed, and Vigor is a lovely buff; getting Expanded Knowledge: Share Pain is helpful. Deep Impact is one of those useful ways to make attacks as touch attacks, and they have access to it, and are the most melee-oriented psionic class to have it.

Psychic warriors have some very nice powers that are good to dip into with Expanded Knowledge, but they really benefit from dipping back as well, or grabbing a mantle. Their major and frustrating weakness is a lack of power points, which can be mitigated with crafting or remedied with an infinite-pp combo.

They really do gish right, for the most part, buffing and wading in. It's easy to run out of power points, but also not too hard to build where that doesn't matter quite so much.

Tshern

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Re: What makes the Psychic Warrior worth it?
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2011, 03:43:35 PM »
lack of power points is not so much, it can combine with tashalatora for a monk build I can actually understand how to play effectively...
Manifester arrows help with that assuming your DM is willing to let that slide.

Quote
Psionic Lion's Charge gives you pounce as a potential feature, which is nice if you don't want to dip CC barbarian.

Especially with the silly reading of PLC.

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Kajhera

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Re: What makes the Psychic Warrior worth it?
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2011, 03:48:52 PM »
*looks at Psionic Lion's Charge again*

The one where you charge, attack, then full attack? I don't read it that way, but I suppose it would be useful that way.

Tshern

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Re: What makes the Psychic Warrior worth it?
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2011, 03:53:21 PM »
The duration is instantaneous, so one could argue the benefits last until the hell freezes over after you manifest it once.

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Kajhera

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Re: What makes the Psychic Warrior worth it?
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2011, 04:01:49 PM »
Ah yes, that is much more silly. It doesn't have the 'until end of round' that should probably be there. There's only one spell with an instantaneous duration that probably shouldn't be there that I've actually interpreted that way and had happen in game, involved gaining a ghaele's gaze attack, because it made the most sense that way somehow.

Shiki

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Re: What makes the Psychic Warrior worth it?
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2011, 04:09:52 PM »
PsyWar is worth it since it has two things: full ML and up to 6th level powers, and plenty of bonus psionic feats to customize itself. Else, it sucks big times.
Well, umm... Hey look, Psionic Minor Creation & Metamorphosis are not Psychic Fighter powers either.

PF is just a bum, he lives off what other people get.

So it doesn't have enough uniqueness to be any good, or something along these lines?
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