Author Topic: Polymorphing into hydra-do you really get the extra attacks?  (Read 10005 times)

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Sir Giacomo

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Re: Polymorphing into hydra-do you really get the extra attacks?
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2011, 09:36:34 AM »
The way I would read it is (and which I think fits the alter self/metamorphosis lines pretty well):
You get the natural attacks, but not the number of attacks.
As such, turned into a hydra you can now use a bite attack. But you do not get more attacks than normal (meaning more than those allowed by your BAB in your normal form).

Also, you definitely do not get the hydra's ability to move and still full attack, since that is neither listed as one of the special (=Ex, Sp or Su) abilities, nor is it among the physical qualities listed as examples.
In fact, it is a text entry between stat block and the special abilities section, much like the magic item descriptions of a Solar (which, likewise, you do not get when you shape into one).

Polymorhp & Co is really not broken the moment you do not use broken interpretations of what these spells/powers really do.

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Edit/PS: When you gor for intent/RAI, Agita, it certainly makes no sense to assume that of course, the designers wanted to prevent more manufactured weapons attacks, but are just fine with a much higher number of natural attacks. Honestly, do you really feel that by level 7, those with access to a certain kind of power/spell should be able to do 7 (additonal?) attacks per round? Why even go for such a broken interpretation when there are clearly passages in the spell/power descriptions that point into the opposite direction?
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 09:43:41 AM by Sir Giacomo »

LordBlades

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Re: Polymorphing into hydra-do you really get the extra attacks?
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2011, 12:08:39 PM »
The way I would read it is (and which I think fits the alter self/metamorphosis lines pretty well):
You get the natural attacks, but not the number of attacks.
As such, turned into a hydra you can now use a bite attack. But you do not get more attacks than normal (meaning more than those allowed by your BAB in your normal form).
So, by your interpretation a 5th level human wizard(can make a single attack with a weapon at that level) who polymorphs into a troglodyte would get to make a single natural attack, whereas a lizardfolk wizard, who already has a claw/claw/bite natural attack sequence would get to make all 3 attacks as a troglodyte? I strongly doubt this was the designers' intention.

Also, you definitely do not get the hydra's ability to move and still full attack, since that is neither listed as one of the special (=Ex, Sp or Su) abilities, nor is it among the physical qualities listed as examples.
In fact, it is a text entry between stat block and the special abilities section, much like the magic item descriptions of a Solar (which, likewise, you do not get when you shape into one).

Except  hydras don't move and full attack, but rather their 'Attack' entry of their stat block is composed of x attacks (where X is the number of heads).

Polymorhp & Co is really not broken
There are a lot worse things you can do with Polymorph/Alter Self than a hydra that rely on absolutely no questionable rule interpretation.


aboyd

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Re: Polymorphing into hydra-do you really get the extra attacks?
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2011, 02:04:09 PM »
Polymorhp & Co is really not broken the moment you do not use broken interpretations of what these spells/powers really do.

If by "broken" you mean, "legitimate but powerful" then I guess I could concede that point, or at least let it stand.

Honestly, do you really feel that by level 7, those with access to a certain kind of power/spell should be able to do 7 (additonal?) attacks per round? Why even go for such a broken interpretation when there are clearly passages in the spell/power descriptions that point into the opposite direction?

Oh.  You really think that by "broken" it means "not what the developers intended."  In that case, no, it's not broken.  The developers wrote out examples that show they clearly do intend for the wizard to get the full claw/claw/bite (or whatever) sequence.

Beyond that, though, how is getting 7 head attacks broken?  At level 7, a wizard can use Greater Invisibility on the rogue, netting the party an extra 8d6 in sneak attack damage every round, thanks to the rogue's feat to get 2 attacks.  Or drop Ice Storm on a crowd.  I'd typically use it when I could get a half dozen enemies or more, so that'd net me 5d6 x 6+ = 30+d6 worth of damage.  Or I can use Animate Dead to gain four 7-headed skeleton hydras, netting me twenty-eight attacks per round.  Granted, that'll cost me some gold for all the gems the spell uses, but also, those hydras will be permanent rather than lasting only the length of a polymorph spell.

My point is, polymorphing and gaining 7 bite attacks not only falls in line with the examples that WotC has produced for us to refer to, but it also is weaker or equal to the damage that some of the other fourth level spells can dish out.  Also, those other spells don't require the wizard to put himself into melee, and they don't require the wizard to give up spellcasting (hydras do not speak, and don't have limbs capable of fine manipulation).

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Re: Polymorphing into hydra-do you really get the extra attacks?
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2011, 05:17:34 PM »
Another reason why this cannot be the true Giacomo: He eventually conceded that Polymorph was broken back on GitP.

This imposter is referencing outdated Giacomo posts when trolling us. Sloppy.

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Sir Giacomo

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Re: Polymorphing into hydra-do you really get the extra attacks?
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2011, 05:23:22 PM »
So, by your interpretation a 5th level human wizard(can make a single attack with a weapon at that level) who polymorphs into a troglodyte would get to make a single natural attack, whereas a lizardfolk wizard, who already has a claw/claw/bite natural attack sequence would get to make all 3 attacks as a troglodyte? I strongly doubt this was the designers' intention.
Except  hydras don't move and full attack, but rather their 'Attack' entry of their stat block is composed of x attacks (where X is the number of heads).
There are a lot worse things you can do with Polymorph/Alter Self than a hydra that rely on absolutely no questionable rule interpretation.

And what might that be?

If by "broken" you mean, "legitimate but powerful" then I guess I could concede that point, or at least let it stand.
Oh.  You really think that by "broken" it means "not what the developers intended."  In that case, no, it's not broken.  The developers wrote out examples that show they clearly do intend for the wizard to get the full claw/claw/bite (or whatever) sequence.
Beyond that, though, how is getting 7 head attacks broken?  At level 7, a wizard can use Greater Invisibility on the rogue, netting the party an extra 8d6 in sneak attack damage every round, thanks to the rogue's feat to get 2 attacks.
Or drop Ice Storm on a crowd.  I'd typically use it when I could get a half dozen enemies or more, so that'd net me 5d6 x 6+ = 30+d6 worth of damage.

Again, less damage than dealt by the multi-head-attack interpretation of the hydra, and only for 1 round.

Or I can use Animate Dead to gain four 7-headed skeleton hydras, netting me twenty-eight attacks per round.  Granted, that'll cost me some gold for all the gems the spell uses, but also, those hydras will be permanent rather than lasting only the length of a polymorph spell.
My point is, polymorphing and gaining 7 bite attacks not only falls in line with the examples that WotC has produced for us to refer to, but it also is weaker or equal to the damage that some of the other fourth level spells can dish out.  Also, those other spells don't require the wizard to put himself into melee, and they don't require the wizard to give up spellcasting (hydras do not speak, and don't have limbs capable of fine manipulation).

LordBlades

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Re: Polymorphing into hydra-do you really get the extra attacks?
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2011, 05:41:27 PM »

I doubt it, especially since there are plenty of spells to gain natural weapons (and the associated number of attacks). The interaction of those with Polymorph would be dubious at best using your interpretation of the rules


And what might that be?
The 5th level outsider wizard that uses alter self into dwarf ancestor for +18 AC (and +18 touch if you use scintillating scales)? Cave troll (5 attacks on a charge+ high  DC fort save vs Daze)? War troll (insane base str and fort save vs. Daze on each hit)? These are just the first 3 examples that come to mind.


aboyd

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Re: Polymorphing into hydra-do you really get the extra attacks?
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2011, 11:24:57 PM »
The all-heads-attack-and-move part probably is broken, the 7-attacks-part is powerful (but probably not legal).

Not legal?  I keep seeing this asserted, but I'm the only one in the thread actually quoting sources, and the quotes I have contradict this line of thinking.  I'll provide another quote below.

Oh.  You really think that by "broken" it means "not what the developers intended."  In that case, no, it's not broken.  The developers wrote out examples that show they clearly do intend for the wizard to get the full claw/claw/bite (or whatever) sequence.

Which ones? Do you have a link?

I already provided the Skip Williams quote, which you seem to dislike.  So here is another: in the official WotC product, Shoals of Intrigue, the antagonist Junparrt "can shift into tiger form as though using the polymorph self spell."  They then list his stats in that form, which includes... 2 claws and a bite attack.  Page 11.  Normally he gets 1 attack, so how'd he get all 3 attacks?  Did this official module break the rules?

There is another Skip Williams article where he addresses the discrepancy between gaining natural attacks and having a limit on "no more attacks" than usual.  He suggests that it is resolved as others here have hinted: it applies to weapons.  You can either use the natural attacks of the creature, or the weapons you were trained with, but if you use the weapons you were trained with, you can only do as you were trained (two arms).  If you use the natural attacks, they work as they do for the creature.  He writes: "You can make attacks that are "normal" for you or normal for your assumed form, but you can't combine them."

Finally, our own Polymorph guide cites the hydra for the extra attacks.  I concede it's the least authoritative of them all, but it highlights that the belief is popular even for those who are experts with the spell.

In regards to the thrust of this discussion, Wizards of the Coast is consistently following the advice in the articles by Skip Williams.  So either he interpreted it wonky and yet a company-wide edict was issued to follow him, or they had already led the way and he merely reported it accurately.  Either way, they're consistent on this front.  If needed, I'm pretty sure I can go through more official modules and find more instances of polymorphed creatures having full natural attacks.

If we follow the idea that we are limited by BAB for natural attacks, we go against these examples, the "Rules of the Game" articles, even the Rules Compendium (which notes that natural attacks do not follow BAB, page 100).  However, if we follow these examples, suddenly all this material is in sync and works.

So why would we argue against Wizard's own documents and mire ourselves?  If it's because we think a hydra is overpowered, why not say, "Hydras are overpowered" and be done?  House rule it away.  Trying to argue that the spell never intended for natural attacks to work when there is so much evidence otherwise is... crazy making.  Nerfing a spell by debating something with loads of contrary evidence is going to be a miserable & difficult way to nerf the spell.  A house rule is clear.  "The spell didn't mean to do that" is a debate.  "I don't allow that in my games" is a decision.

So I'd caution us.  If we're trying to advocate the spell be interpreted in a controversial way merely because we dislike the hydra, we have an uphill battle before us.  We're trying to make "interpret the rules" serve the purpose of nerfing the spell even though people can interpret the opposite way.

ShadowViper

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Re: Polymorphing into hydra-do you really get the extra attacks?
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2011, 12:46:04 AM »
I for one agree with the above post on the interpertation of the Hydra and natural attacks.

In my opinion this line says it best.

"You can make attacks that are "normal" for you or normal for your assumed form, but you can't combine them."
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Sir Giacomo

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Re: Polymorphing into hydra-do you really get the extra attacks?
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2011, 07:30:28 AM »
1. Maybe, then, the ability to do 7 or more attacks in hydra form is not that powerful, after all?2. There may be some other element of polymorph which stops the hydra abuse.3. In core, the polymorph line of spells is way less powerful than outside core
The non-core forms LordBlades offered above illustrate that once you move outside the original core rules to a quadrupling (or more) of the Monster Manuals, of course also the possibilities of spells that emulate monster abilities multiplies. DMs playing outside core should keep this in mind.
(Still, when going non-core the ability to, say, get a +18 touch AC for a while with the help of two 2nd level spells may not be the worst characters are able to do by level 3).

What do you think?

- Giacomo

aboyd

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Re: Polymorphing into hydra-do you really get the extra attacks?
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2011, 09:33:22 AM »
Well, I agree that the hydra may not be overpowered, as your possibility #1 suggests.  That's what I was trying to put forward when I cited a few other comparable spells.  Yes, those other spells have qualifiers, but they're also conferring advantages.  Sure, some do a bit less damage... but they don't require the wizard to be in melee combat.  Sure Animate Dead requires gems & corpses, but it can do more damage than Polymorph, over longer periods of time.  To me, these are real advantages over the Polymorph spell.  So I don't feel alarmed by what it can do.

I think it could really throw off a DM who isn't ready for it, but I'm doing OK with it so far.  I'd write more, but it's 4 AM, so I'm going to catch some sleep first.  :)

Midnight_v

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Re: Polymorphing into hydra-do you really get the extra attacks?
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2011, 10:45:18 AM »
Well, I agree that the hydra may not be overpowered, as your possibility #1 suggests.  That's what I was trying to put forward when I cited a few other comparable spells.  Yes, those other spells have qualifiers, but they're also conferring advantages.  Sure, some do a bit less damage... but they don't require the wizard to be in melee combat.  Sure Animate Dead requires gems & corpses, but it can do more damage than Polymorph, over longer periods of time.  To me, these are real advantages over the Polymorph spell.  So I don't feel alarmed by what it can do.

I think it could really throw off a DM who isn't ready for it, but I'm doing OK with it so far.  I'd write more, but it's 4 AM, so I'm going to catch some sleep first.  :)
Aboyd I just wanna thank you  and welcom you to the board. Your posts are concise and very reasonable. Glad to have you on board.
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aboyd

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Re: Polymorphing into hydra-do you really get the extra attacks?
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2011, 07:20:02 AM »
Thanks Midnight_v.  It's funny to get a welcome message 3 years after registering, but I have to admit I didn't post much until this past week.  :)

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Re: Polymorphing into hydra-do you really get the extra attacks?
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2011, 06:29:19 PM »
Thanks Midnight_v.  It's funny to get a welcome message 3 years after registering, but I have to admit I didn't post much until this past week.  :)
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ShadowViper

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Re: Polymorphing into hydra-do you really get the extra attacks?
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2011, 06:37:10 PM »
Thanks Midnight_v.  It's funny to get a welcome message 3 years after registering, but I have to admit I didn't post much until this past week.  :)
Where have you been?! We need more awesome people around here. Just don't go to the GitP forums; they boot all the best people off pretty damned quick.

Which is great for us because they all seem to come here.  :D
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bkdubs123

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Re: Polymorphing into hydra-do you really get the extra attacks?
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2011, 06:53:28 PM »
Thanks Midnight_v.  It's funny to get a welcome message 3 years after registering, but I have to admit I didn't post much until this past week.  :)
Where have you been?! We need more awesome people around here. Just don't go to the GitP forums; they boot all the best people off pretty damned quick.

I've been registered there for almost three years now and in the last few months I've been warned twice (no infractions yet). :eh

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Re: Polymorphing into hydra-do you really get the extra attacks?
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2011, 07:28:54 PM »
Thanks Midnight_v.  It's funny to get a welcome message 3 years after registering, but I have to admit I didn't post much until this past week.  :)
Where have you been?! We need more awesome people around here. Just don't go to the GitP forums; they boot all the best people off pretty damned quick.

I've been registered there for almost three years now and in the last few months I've been warned twice (no infractions yet). :eh
Well, there's a hint, then. ;)
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
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My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Otto the Bugbear

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Re: Polymorphing into hydra-do you really get the extra attacks?
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2011, 12:58:37 AM »
I know this is off topic, but...

Is there a specific reason for that happening at GitP forums?

It's been years since I posted there. Last time I was met with a pretty even mix of people treating me like I didn't know the first thing about CO or class design, along with people that treated everything I posted as a felony against the very spirit of D&D because my stuff jacked the power level up WAY, WAY, WAY too much.


And now, back on topic...

Yes, you get the standard attack of the hydra. :smirk

stranglebat

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Re: Polymorphing into hydra-do you really get the extra attacks?
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2011, 12:59:44 AM »

ShadowViper

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Re: Polymorphing into hydra-do you really get the extra attacks?
« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2011, 02:46:33 AM »
Off-topic

[spoiler]Keep in mind that I do not have first hand(edit) experience, but from what I've heard(and I consider the sources credible) the GiTP moderators are considered incompetent jokes and like to ban people for the silliest and/or minorest(this actually a word?) things. Mods on GitP have also been known to break their own rules and ban those that point it out. [/spoiler]
« Last Edit: May 31, 2011, 04:52:10 AM by ShadowViper »
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aboyd

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Re: Polymorphing into hydra-do you really get the extra attacks?
« Reply #39 on: May 31, 2011, 02:56:28 AM »
I feel like I'm getting pranked.  How do you guys know about me?