Author Topic: Triple Gestalt, No Casters  (Read 12725 times)

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kalaskaagathas

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Triple Gestalt, No Casters
« on: May 18, 2011, 01:40:48 AM »
So I'm joining a game using triple gestalt rules, but not allowing casting classes.  Classes gaining less than ninth level spells (i.e. Bards, Factoti, etc.) will be able to trade their casting for something else (if you've got any ideas, I'd love to hear them so I can run them by my DM).  Furthermore, Psionics, Incarnum, and Tome of Magic classes are not allowed, but everything 3.5 is available (though Dungeon material is frowned upon)

The character I envision I find easiest to describe in terms of Shadowrun

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Re: Triple Gestalt, No Casters
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2011, 02:40:33 AM »
Ideally, I'd also have Full BAB, good Hit Dice (i.e. > d8), all good Saves, 6+Int skills (if not better), maneuver progression, and whatever class features I can pick up.

...

As far as combat goes, I'd like to be a highly mobile damage dealer and fear monger, with the feats to play a charger/jack-be-quick type fighter.

...

I'd also like to be able to strike fear into my enemies since it was that or spiked-chain tripping for battlefield control.
Warblade 20 // Factotum 20 // XYZ 20

Covers the first bit completely, except for the will save. You have 20 levels perhaps filled with oodles of multiclassing to fix that. Your base will save could easily get more than +12 at level 20. Just pick 2 or 3 classes with a strong will save for the third side and you'll be golden.

For the love of Odin, do NOT forget Iron Heart Surge or White Raven Tactics. Those two maneuvers might be your best and the best maneuvers in the entire book and all Warblades learn them at level 5 and level 6 (one just by learning, the other by trading an old maneuver), agonizing over choosing which comes first. This is not a statement of opinion, it is a fact. You will learn Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics if you don't want to give me a blood clot.

Sudden Leap (Tiger claw 1st level boost, Tome of Battle) will cover low level mobility very well until something from your third side kicks in. To get that desired mobility, you have 20 levels to play with. Might I suggest Swordsage (for the Shadow Jaunt, Shadow Stride, and Shadow Blink maneuvers + other less easily memorable but still mobility granting abilities/maneuvers)? There are also teleporting classes galore and they all love shadow pounce from Telflammar Shadowlord (Prestige Class, Unapproachable East, page 36) which gives you a full attack at the end of every teleportation ability you use. Prestige Classing into Horizon Walker for 6 levels (Prestige Class, Dungeon Master's Guide, page 189) to get the Shifting Planar Terrain Mastery to get Dimensional Door once every 1d4 rounds (more than 400 feet teleportation) should be considered a low water mark for a mobility fighter using teleportation for mobility. Shifting Planar Terrain Mastery is like burst of waterfall while all you need is a constant steady stream of short ranged teleportations. You can do better.

As for fear, there is a fear handbook: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0 . It will explain much better than I. One rather potent trick is Intimidating Rage + Instantaneous Rage (Both Complete Warrior, feats) + Imperious Command (Drow of the Underdark, feat) + Never Outnumbered (Complete Scoundrel, skill trick) to cower everyone in range who fails your immediate action intimidate you can use on someone else's turn. Evil Wizard casting save or die? Nuh-uh, I Rage, Intimidate everyone, and he's cowering on the floor along with all his minions. Cowering makes you lose all your actions FYI. This combination is lovely.

You'll have the feats for Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike, or uber-charging, but probably not both. Choose one and stick with it. You're either a charge monster or a blender set to liquefy. For the Blender option, I would also suggest a lockdown build so enemies can't escape the blender (you). We call lockdown + Jack B. Quick a crackdown build (an inescapable blender). The staples are reach (Spiked Chain says hello from the PHB for the 1000th time), Stand Still (nonpsionic feat, Expanded Psionic Handbook), Combat Reflexes (PHB, feat) so anything trying to get away just stands still. Add Improved Trip + tripping attacks if you really want (those rely on a high strength and size category, though. Stand Still just relies on huge damage. Your huge, huge damage.).
This part of a handbook will explain crackdown builds: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=357.msg6904#msg6904 . It uses Crusader and Tome of Battle material.

We have two charging handbooks: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7200.0 and http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood:_A_Tale_of_38;_Guide_to_the_3.5_Dragoon both of which will tell you everything you need to know.

Excuse my late night grammar. Hopefully you can understand my original and unadulterated meanings via contextual clues located near grammatical/spelling errors.
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kalaskaagathas

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Re: Triple Gestalt, No Casters
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2011, 03:13:41 AM »
Ideally, I'd also have Full BAB, good Hit Dice (i.e. > d8), all good Saves, 6+Int skills (if not better), maneuver progression, and whatever class features I can pick up.

...

As far as combat goes, I'd like to be a highly mobile damage dealer and fear monger, with the feats to play a charger/jack-be-quick type fighter.

...

I'd also like to be able to strike fear into my enemies since it was that or spiked-chain tripping for battlefield control.
Warblade 20 // Factotum 20 // XYZ 20

Covers the first bit completely, except for the will save. You have 20 levels perhaps filled with oodles of multiclassing to fix that. Your base will save could easily get more than +12 at level 20. Just pick 2 or 3 classes with a strong will save for the third side and you'll be golden.

For the love of Odin, do NOT forget Iron Heart Surge or White Raven Tactics. Those two maneuvers might be your best and the best maneuvers in the entire book and all Warblades learn them at level 5 and level 6 (one just by learning, the other by trading an old maneuver), agonizing over choosing which comes first. This is not a statement of opinion, it is a fact. You will learn Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics if you don't want to give me a blood clot.

I guess I should mention that I might be able to get a good Will Save and some ancillary anti-magic sorts of benefits as trade for the banned Arcane Dilettante, so I'm not as worried on that front.  I should also have mentioned that I'm starting at level 10 and need suggestions for my Maneuvers and Stances (beyond Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics, as I know their power and will include them for sure).

Quote
Sudden Leap (Tiger claw 1st level boost, Tome of Battle) will cover low level mobility very well until something from your third side kicks in. To get that desired mobility, you have 20 levels to play with. Might I suggest Swordsage (for the Shadow Jaunt, Shadow Stride, and Shadow Blink maneuvers + other less easily memorable but still mobility granting abilities/maneuvers)? There are also teleporting classes galore and they all love shadow pounce from Telflammar Shadowlord (Prestige Class, Unapproachable East, page 36) which gives you a full attack at the end of every teleportation ability you use. Prestige Classing into Horizon Walker for 6 levels (Prestige Class, Dungeon Master's Guide, page 189) to get the Shifting Planar Terrain Mastery to get Dimensional Door once every 1d4 rounds (more than 400 feet teleportation) should be considered a low water mark for a mobility fighter using teleportation for mobility. Shifting Planar Terrain Mastery is like burst of waterfall while all you need is a constant steady stream of short ranged teleportations. You can do better.

I had considered Swordsage but that gives more of a Wis focus where I'm pretty set on focusing on Int.  Though I do suppose I need a decent Wis for Sense Motive, so it wouldn't be all that bad.  And maybe I can get the DM to give the Telflammar Shadowlord Maneuver Progression instead of spells...that'd work pretty well, actually, shadowpouncing rather than straight up pouncing.  I'll ask him about it.

Quote
As for fear, there is a fear handbook: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0 . It will explain much better than I. One rather potent trick is Intimidating Rage + Instantaneous Rage (Both Complete Warrior, feats) + Imperious Command (Drow of the Underdark, feat) + Never Outnumbered (Complete Scoundrel, skill trick) to cower everyone in range who fails your immediate action intimidate you can use on someone else's turn. Evil Wizard casting save or die? Nuh-uh, I Rage, Intimidate everyone, and he's cowering on the floor along with all his minions. Cowering makes you lose all your actions FYI. This combination is lovely.

I'll check it out.  I'd like to find a way to do it without Barbarian though, as it doesn't really fit the setting or the character (the character is probably something like a Roman Senator/General).

Quote
You'll have the feats for Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike, or uber-charging, but probably not both. Choose one and stick with it. You're either a charge monster or a blender set to liquefy. For the Blender option, I would also suggest a lockdown build so enemies can't escape the blender (you). We call lockdown + Jack B. Quick a crackdown build (an inescapable blender). The staples are reach (Spiked Chain says hello from the PHB for the 1000th time), Stand Still (nonpsionic feat, Expanded Psionic Handbook), Combat Reflexes (PHB, feat) so anything trying to get away just stands still. Add Improved Trip + tripping attacks if you really want (those rely on a high strength and size category, though. Stand Still just relies on huge damage. Your huge, huge damage.).
This part of a handbook will explain crackdown builds: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=357.msg6904#msg6904 . It uses Crusader and Tome of Battle material.

I'd rather not go the Lockdown/Crackdown route, as it would require me to sit still (and I prefer to move around the battle).  I also think we might get more feats than normal, to support our more classes than normal, but I'll make sure to ask.

Quote
We have two charging handbooks: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7200.0 and http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood:_A_Tale_of_38;_Guide_to_the_3.5_Dragoon both of which will tell you everything you need to know.

I've read both, actually, and I don't think that I'll be able to go for a 'Hood as the DM has previously not allowed me to play one in an Epic campaign where most of the party were casters, and I can't fit in Cleric or PsyWar due to house rules.  I'll have to give the 'Hood handbook a review though, to see what I can use for this character.

Quote
Excuse my late night grammar. Hopefully you can understand my original and unadulterated meanings via contextual clues located near grammatical/spelling errors.

You are excused, though I didn't notice any.

Hallack

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Re: Triple Gestalt, No Casters
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2011, 10:57:54 AM »
I see the fellow above already suggested Swordsage for the 3rd class.  I second that suggestion.  If not that the look for something loaded with tons of class features like Scout.
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Re: Triple Gestalt, No Casters
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2011, 11:42:58 AM »
Think about it : Warblade 20//Factotum 20//Swordsage 20
-Good BAB
-All good saves
-d12 HD
-Three means of action abuse (Cunning Surge, Time Stands Still, White Raven Tactics)
-Improved Evasion
-Improved Uncanny Dodge
-Trapfinding
-Ranged capability from Swordsage
-Teleportation tactically from Swordsage, along with long distance travel (three teleporting maneuvers per turn)
-All skills as class skills
-High likelihood of being able to Carmadine Monk that AC bonus from swordsage
-Int SAD if you can (DC's be damned with this chassis)
-Easy access to combining strikes with Iajutsu Focus

And with all that said, I'd go for feats that play to this versatile base, such as Adaptive Style, Font of Inspiration a few times, Improved Initiative, and perhaps Power Attack just to have it, as damage shouldn't be an issue.  Swift and Silent + Darkstalker would make for a hell of an assassin, especially once you get Feral Death Blow (come boiling out of the shadows, deal 20d6+9d6 IF+weapon damage, save vs death, and most likely save vs death from massive damage too).  Knowledge Devotion wouldn't be bad either.
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Re: Triple Gestalt, No Casters
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2011, 12:05:44 PM »
Personally I would avoid 20 levels of Swordsage and go for some multiclassing. It does give a good will save, but the number of maneuvers seems a bit too high to be used efficiently. Feat Rogue and Fighter can be used for a couple of bonus feats, which can be useful depending on the build. KellKheraptis already mentioned Iajitsu Focus, which might not be a bad route at all and Iajitsu Master gives a few abilities that could be used/abused with that to great effect. Although in that case charisma would be rather important.

Alternatively you could stack on a bunch of templates on the other side. Or simply go Binder. They have a good will save and can get rather nasty abilities. Say, Warblade 20/Factotum 20/Binder 20?

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Re: Triple Gestalt, No Casters
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2011, 12:08:47 PM »
Quote
-High likelihood of being able to Carmadine Monk that AC bonus from swordsage
Or Kung Fu Genius. Alternatively Factotum 19/Monk 1.
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Re: Triple Gestalt, No Casters
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2011, 12:10:18 PM »
My main reason for advocating Swordsage was access to teleportation, as otherwise you don't have any.  And might have to check to ensure Binder isn't a no go due to spellcasting access/emulation.
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Re: Triple Gestalt, No Casters
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2011, 12:12:33 PM »
My main reason for advocating Swordsage was access to teleportation, as otherwise you don't have any.  And might have to check to ensure Binder isn't a no go due to spellcasting access/emulation.
The Binder point is extremely valid. It might be worthwhile to figure out how the spell-likes of Factotum work as well. However, you could get the Swordsage maneuvers with a well-placed dip as well.

How would DFA work here?

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Re: Triple Gestalt, No Casters
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2011, 12:14:30 PM »
Definitely agree pure Swordsage not much of and issue.  May even consider things like Swashbuckler dip to further capitalize on Int bonus.
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Re: Triple Gestalt, No Casters
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2011, 12:27:28 PM »
My main reason for advocating Swordsage was access to teleportation, as otherwise you don't have any.  And might have to check to ensure Binder isn't a no go due to spellcasting access/emulation.
The Binder point is extremely valid. It might be worthwhile to figure out how the spell-likes of Factotum work as well. However, you could get the Swordsage maneuvers with a well-placed dip as well.

How would DFA work here?

Another good one.  Also, can't a Swordsage pick up Time Stands Still?  No Iron Heart though without burning feats...my aim for the W/F/S was picking up as much capability through class features as possible without burning feats.  That combo does that, even without SLA's, leaving feats to enhance specific aspects.  Adaptive Style to reset maneuvers on the fly, Darkstalker to become sneakier, maybe play a mind focused Hellbred for Mindsight at 15th level, Exotic Weapon Proficiency perhaps for proficiency with every weapon ever (as you can change it at will with Warblade), Knowledge Devotion is a shoe-in, since there's no GMW.
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Re: Triple Gestalt, No Casters
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2011, 12:33:44 PM »
I am quite sure Time stands still is a Diamond mind maneuver, so Swordsages do get it. Then again, so do Warblades. Swordsages would allow some Shadow blade+Assassin's stance+Craven abuse too, so a dip wouldn't hurt. The AC bonus doesn't exactly suck either considering the lack of casting capabilities.

Knowledge devotion certainly is a no-brainer. With Scrolls of Uncertain Provenance and masterwork tools alone you would net +7. Add in an intelligence score of, say, 16 and some ranks (and perhaps Collector of Stories, I have seen it ruled both ways) and you've got some decent bonuses there.

Hellbred is an excellent idea as well. Mindsight would be rather awesome with the lack of magical detection methods.

Personally I wouldn't mind DFA assuming it is allowed despite the invocations. Gives some good stuff for social abilities, much needed BFC and with the Warblade at the side even regular fighting wouldn't be a problem...

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Re: Triple Gestalt, No Casters
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2011, 12:37:26 PM »
Close range BFC isn't an issue anyhow, just take Improved Trip and wield a spiked chain in the stance granting extra reach.  Combine with Thicket of Blades at later levels and the feat stand still, and pin everyone within 15', 30' if you can somehow be treated as large.
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Re: Triple Gestalt, No Casters
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2011, 12:47:57 PM »
Of course depending on what the DM is wanting some of the Swordsage stuff may be too magical for the particular game.
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kalaskaagathas

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Re: Triple Gestalt, No Casters
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2011, 06:32:32 PM »
First of all, like I said in the OP, Binders aren't allowed.  I doubt I'll be able to take levels in DFA or Warlock either, for the same reason (i.e. they're too magical).  I'm allowed Swordsage, but I do worry that I'd be unable to efficiently use that many maneuvers (and the Swordsage recovery mechanic sucks).

The more I think about it, the more I'd like to get Shadowpounce and maybe do some multi pouncing, but I'm not sure how I'm going to get some form of teleportation.  I'd also still like to get the capstone from Master Thrower and Invisible Blade's Feint as a Free Action ability (we're not using the errata) and maybe Swash 3's Int to damage and some Rogue for Skills and Sneak Attack (to meet the prereqs for Telflammar Shadowlord) but I'm not sure if I can fit that all in.

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Re: Triple Gestalt, No Casters
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2011, 08:09:15 PM »
Good point about the OP, sorry I didn't see that.

In any case, Swordsage, in my eyes, could benefit as a dipping class rather than for the full 20 levels. With the Diamond mind maneuver I can never remember you can use Concentration checks instead of your standard will save anyway.

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Re: Triple Gestalt, No Casters
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2011, 08:56:58 PM »
Ok, so let's assume that I can meet the prereqs for Telflammar Shadowlord, and that maneuvers which function as teleportation effects let me shadow pounce.  What maneuvers would I use to multipounce?  How do I make that sort of thing sustainable/usable more than once or twice an encounter?  Is there a Shadow Pounce handbook?

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Re: Triple Gestalt, No Casters
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2011, 09:30:26 PM »
While not a good suggestion...Knight gets a good will save

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Re: Triple Gestalt, No Casters
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2011, 09:40:57 PM »
Ok, so let's assume that I can meet the prereqs for Telflammar Shadowlord, and that maneuvers which function as teleportation effects let me shadow pounce.  What maneuvers would I use to multipounce?  How do I make that sort of thing sustainable/usable more than once or twice an encounter?  Is there a Shadow Pounce handbook?
Shadow Jaunt, Shadow Stride, Shadow Blink. Shadow Hand maneuvers, 2nd, 5th, and 7th level will do it. As for more than 1/encounter... prestige class which grants shadow hand maneuvers but adding the prestige class progression to your Warblade progression? Or Adaptive Style + Swordsage recovery mechanic.

Shadow Hand teleporting maneuvers activate Shadow Pounce from Telflammar Shadowlord for sure. Though you need something else to qualify for the prestige class itself.
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kalaskaagathas

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Re: Triple Gestalt, No Casters
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2011, 10:11:10 PM »
Ok, so let's assume that I can meet the prereqs for Telflammar Shadowlord, and that maneuvers which function as teleportation effects let me shadow pounce.  What maneuvers would I use to multipounce?  How do I make that sort of thing sustainable/usable more than once or twice an encounter?  Is there a Shadow Pounce handbook?
Shadow Jaunt, Shadow Stride, Shadow Blink. Shadow Hand maneuvers, 2nd, 5th, and 7th level will do it. As for more than 1/encounter... prestige class which grants shadow hand maneuvers but adding the prestige class progression to your Warblade progression? Or Adaptive Style + Swordsage recovery mechanic.

Shadow Hand teleporting maneuvers activate Shadow Pounce from Telflammar Shadowlord for sure. Though you need something else to qualify for the prestige class itself.

This makes me wonder, then, has anybody done a Sublime Factotum (replacing Arcane Dilettante with maneuvers)?  That might work really well for me.

Isn't there a way (using Adaptive Style or what have you) to regain your Warblade maneuvers every round, even if you use one?