Author Topic: Number of classes  (Read 1662 times)

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Otto the Bugbear

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Number of classes
« on: May 18, 2011, 01:06:11 AM »
From past experience, I've noticed we can all pretty much agree that 3e had far too many base classes by the end of its lifespan.

I've been working on a project that cuts the number of base classes down drastically. Initially I cut the classes down to 6, trying for one class for each ability score. With the exception of Constitution, it looked pretty good as an initial offering.

Strength = Warrior
Dexterity = Rogue
Constitution = (some kind of defensive specialist)
Intelligence = Psion
Wisdom = Priest
Charisma = Sorcerer

I was pretty frustrated with the Con-based class. Too many of the abilities overlapped with the Warrior. That lead me to cut out the Con-based class, ending up with 5 classes.

I also looked at the PHB classes in an attempt to trim them down, do see what the logical end product would look like. A few of the PHB classes are ripe for elimination. The bard, being the original PrC from way back in the day, was the first to go, being essentially a rogue/sorcerer/druid or rogue/sorcerer/cleric. The ranger is another that seems to be a mish-mash of rogue/fighter/druid, with a BAB bump. Paladin would simply be a cleric/fighter with a BAB bump. Don't even bring up the damn monk. I played around with quite a few different configurations.

That lead me into a three class system of Warrior, Rogue, Sorcerer. This was/is going to end up as a sort of cross between ToB and the generic classes from UA. This project developed to the point where each of the three classes have 9 "schools" to choose from. The line of thinking was that this would allow the player to create their character without the limitations of the traditional class-based system, especially with regards to PrCs and their sometimes onerous entry requirements.

What about getting down to a single class chassis where the player just picks from different schools as his vision dictates (with restrictions to picking higher level abilities similar to ToB -- for a 4th level ability, must already know 2 from that school or something).

Lately, however, this got me thinking about how far this concept can be taken and still be considered D&D.
Is option 1, a 5 class system, still D&D?
Is option 2, a 7-8 class system, still D&D?
Is option 3, a 3 class system, still D&D?
Is option 4, a 1 class system, still D&D?

Or is this simply looking at it from the wrong direction?
Is D&D more the fluff and flavor found in the books and the presentation of the different areas*?
Does is really matter how many classes are offered as long as the basics somehow tie back to the original game?
I guess that brings up a tangential question regarding how much the basics can change while still being D&D; can the 6 basic ability scores be changed and have it still remain D&D?



*4e suffers from this IMO, the presentation of abilities is simply too far out of scope from what previous editions gave us.

SneeR

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Re: Number of classes
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2011, 04:37:48 AM »
If you only have one class, and you branch into disciplines, you have literally gone full circle. Those disciplines are just another name for classes if they are the only difference.

If I HAD to boil all of D&D down into just a few classes, I would say:
Melee Warrior (more heavy-duty)
Ranged Warrior (speedier attacks and lower defense)
Specialist (either damage, skill, or special ability-focused)
Nature-linked character
Divine caster
Arcane Caster

If I had to narrow it further...
Warrior: focuses of hard attack (melle or ranged) or defense or maneuvers

Specialist: This is the skill monkey, diplomancer, or niche class that focuses on special abilities (like monks)

Spellcaster: anyone who casts spells. In an ideal world, you don't have anyone who can do everything to its full extent. Generalist wizard should only be able to carry out a fraction of the full power, despite being able to do everything. Ideally, things should be themed specilist casters, like nature warriors (druids w/only blasting or transmutation spells), healers/buffers (as per the class if it didn't suck), necromancers, illusionists (talking beguiler-style here), and evokers (warmage on steroids). Basically everything should be modeled after dread necro, beguiler, and warmage.

Any fewer classes than three and you are just cherry-picking from a bunch of abilities, not actually specializing or creating any distinction between the classes.
The answer to everything:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
SneeR
[spoiler]
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
When another driver brandishes a holy symbol and begins glowing with divine light, seek cover or get spattered with zombie brains. I do not see what is so complicated about this.
[/spoiler]

Littha

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Re: Number of classes
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2011, 06:55:47 AM »
I was doing some work on a 1 class system but generally i find the mass of classes and PRCs one of the best things about 3.5. I like to have options.

E-mail

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Re: Number of classes
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2011, 07:49:54 AM »
I was doing some work on a 1 class system but generally i find the mass of classes and PRCs one of the best things about 3.5. I like to have options.

QFT!

Variety is the spice of life, and I prefer mine extra spicy! The wealth of real options is what makes 3.5 the best d&d system ever.

Empirate

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Re: Number of classes
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2011, 08:56:07 AM »
I love me lots of base classes!

Otto the Bugbear

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Re: Number of classes
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2011, 12:15:21 AM »
Thanks for the input guys.

I never considered that one class (or even three classes) was getting me right back to the same thing as the 175 class system 3.5 has. Mainly because picking from abilities as the character gains levels at least gives a level appropriate ability, where picking up a new base class (ala 3.5 style) gives an ability appropriate for 1st level play.

Having said that, I was really waffling back and forth between 3 classes and 5 classes. The one class idea is just the most radical extreme of a project to reduce the number of base classes. I honestly don't see the 1 class project happening. It also occurs to me that a 1 class system is really a no class system due to so many base mechanics being the same regardless of character build.

Jim Profit

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Re: Number of classes
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2011, 07:48:11 AM »

I THOUGHT this is what Fourth Edition was going to do. I distinctly remember wizards of the coast saying something about the classes eating each other. Big fish>small fish. But then, this is coming from the same company that went on a massacre against it's forum members over what they perceived to be "leaks". Like they're the government, and have to protect top secret governments. Meanwhile not a month ago they were saying there was no Fourth Edition, keep buy Third Edition. Okay, maybe there IS Fourth Edition, but it's far off and still in development, okay, Fourth Edition is out in six months. Buy it all anyway. We're better then you...

The only thing WOTC did right, was giving some kind of classification for the classes. Like "striker, defender," etc. Categorizing them. Which of course, other mediums have done too, and better. I believe all classes, including prestige classes, should fall into one of these perceived kinds. But I'd expand it from the four presented in fourth edition...


Debuffer
Team Buffer
Tank/Self Buffer
Healer
Blaster
Utility
Summoner


That's seven classes. The players then get to level in one of the classes, and choose a base or prestige class ability that matches their classes respective field, or alternatively, can start selecting spells relative to their class type. Basically, the classes are kind of like the genetic class system of unearthed arcana. (In fact, this whole thing would probably be easier to do with the generic class sytem... but probably not as balanced) You can either advance your spellcasting ability one level as if you gained a sorcerer level, or gain a class ability. Here's an example;


Jim Profit wants to a debuffer. He must either decide to function as a level 1 sorcerer would's spell-list, (all must be debuff related spells) or he gains a class ability. I opt for class ability, and gain poison, the spell-like ability of the prestige class skin of acolyte. Using a fourth level spell, at first level 1/day may seem really terrible. But considering if I opted for the former, I'd be casting a lot more spells per day, and without that much difference. (Like say ray of enfeeblement) In fact, even if that poison 1/day was a supernatural ability, or was increased to 3/day. It would only be slightly better, as poison as a spell shouldn't of even been level four to begin with. It does not scale. And anyone with a few ranks in craft can make poison for cheap. So it'd probably be more optimal to take "poison use" as an ability, and just craft all the poisons I want. But all of them fit within the purviews of a debuffer.

I guess you could just do the same thing with all the spells lists throughout all the D&D books. Compose them, break them down into the seven categories of classes, make each one a class with their own proficiencies, hit dice, skillpoint, saving throw, and base attack bonus progression... and call it a day. But then, all the classes are essentially specialized sorcerers.




I don't know if I like the idea of a one class based system, as that's just mutants&masterminds. A decent system in it's own right. You can easily get D&D out of mutants&masterminds. Just imagine if D&D was a point based system, and used the toughness check variant if unearthed arcana.

However... I do like the class system, as I believe limitation is somewhat good to reduce cheese. Rather then me use debuffs specifically designed to ruin opponent's dexterity, so they cannot save against my fireball. I would have to invest so many levels in a debuffer and blaster class. Sure, I'd be good, but I wouldn't be GREAT. Mutants&Masterminds is a super hero campaign, and intended for over the top characters like Exalted. If you're looking for more of a dungeon crawling, solve puzzles, escape traps, and struggle with the enemy kind of adventure. That is not the direction you want to take it. I see Mutants&Masterminds more like Blue Dragon, Blue Dragon IS my favorite game technically. Because of how well it was designed all the way around. But flavor wise, I prefer Zelda. Even though they haven't changed Zelda in twenty six years, and could definitely afford too... I like the premise of Zelda of where you're not all powerful. Through cunning, the right magic items, and talent... THATS how you survive!!! (Ironically, it's Blue Dragon with the class system and Zelda is classless...)

It would be nice though to be able to make one of my ideas come true once in awhile, without having to bend the rules so much, or just outright ignore them. Like how I've wanted to make a dual wielding wand user for the longest time. Where he uses magic items as weapons. I don't want to be a spellcaster, I want to be an item-caster. But making items is so expensive. I don't need all the other crap. Like infusions of an artificer, or the spells per day of a caster, I just want to be able to make lots of magic items, use them, and then toss them. I actually had an idea for a fighter where he could craft magic items by just taking ranks in craft (wands), but the wands were so cheap, they negated the use of potions and scrolls. So in order for it to make sense, everything's market value would have to drop dramatically. I suppose I could make up some feat where I can reduce the gold price of a magic item. Like say...

Initial cost to make a wand: As normal. Just don't need a caster level or knowledge of the spell anymore.
"Craft Wands": Decrease gold price of wand by 10%. (Can take multiple times, but no more then 90%)
Want to take TWF so I can dual-wield wands obviously.

Level 20 Fighter: I'm dual-wielding wands of firestrom, CL 20.
(Regular price: 210,000. New price: 21,000.)

And it basically took all my feats to pull it off. Can't do it with potions or scrolls, though why would I need too? See... in Mutants&Masterminds, I could just take the power "Gadget" and essentially do the same thing. Gadget=If I want to be known for making items I don't plan to keep. Device=An item that defines me.

A flaw of my plan is that some classes would never get picked. Sure a healer and utility class might be useful, maybe even required... but who wants to get stuck being the band-aid or crazy shaman guy? Occasionally you might get lucky, but most players want to see some action. Also there's thin lines. Sometimes healing borders on buffing, and summoner, given the right summoning list... could fulfill any of the roles. Creating the same problems of the old system of an unfair advantage to certain classes. I would probably counter this by changing how each one does magic.

Summoner: Vancian magic. Prepared, limited spells per day. That ought to minimize munchkinism.

Healer: Spontaneous spells per day. Needs a limit so can't just keep spamming and keep everyone immortal.

Buff Others: Same as Healer, though not as necessary.

Self Buff: Skillcheck. Doesn't even need spells per day, as if fumbles, it costs him the round. Not a very good tank if you're constantly tripping over your own shoelaces.

Blaster: "Blood cost" (HP loss?) or the risk of fatigue. Basically, if you're going to be that good in combat. Destroying the big bad in one turn, you need to be your own worse enemy.

Debuff: Recharge magic. Five round downtime like with binders. Why??? To prevent spam.


Of course, this is all just speculation. I'm just trying to help.