Author Topic: Stealing the Erudite/Psion Thunder, the Arcane Way!  (Read 8900 times)

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KellKheraptis

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Stealing the Erudite/Psion Thunder, the Arcane Way!
« on: May 16, 2011, 08:07:56 PM »
Arcane Crescendo.

First we need a set of psionic powers to use our pp on.  The Shards of Leadership trick supplies this nicely, letting any character capable of acquiring a psicrystal ultimately snag every power in existence.  That said, we have no pp as of yet, save the 1-20 from either race or feat(s).  Enter mental pinnacle.  We now have an assload, particularly with a high CL, and at ML equal to our CL.  Now remember how we have all those powers?  Manifest metaconcert, and if you don't wish to conduct it, pawn it off on your shiny pet rock.  Congrats, you now have a massive reserve of powers known and power points disassociated with you, but no spells so long as mental pinnacle persists.  Well, dismiss it.  Remember, your power points are now in the metaconcert, so you have none to lose from ditching the spell (0pp-0pp=0pp).  End result?  All the goodness of psionic buffing and action rape on the chassis of a Wizard, without having the dicey mechanics and arguments involved with a Spell to Power Erudite, and better capability to optimize both sides, especially given that your only limitation to manifesting absurdly powerful powers is your CL, and there are a million and one ways to augment that.  Oh, and ensure the metaconcert is capable of using bestow power, as even unaugmented, once you have those 2 pp back from it after dismissing mental pinnacle, you regain ability to achieve psionic focus, allowing the full breadth of action abuse.
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nijineko

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Re: Stealing the Erudite/Psion Thunder, the Arcane Way!
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2011, 03:50:14 PM »
interesting. this should be added to the psionic tricks thread as well.
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Arz

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Re: Stealing the Erudite/Psion Thunder, the Arcane Way!
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2011, 02:41:52 PM »
Mental Pinacle is not dismissable, so better hope your CL is not looped.

I'd have your spellthief cohort clonk that spell out of you with his sap of forgetting pain ever happened.

KellKheraptis

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Re: Stealing the Erudite/Psion Thunder, the Arcane Way!
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2011, 02:50:06 PM »
Mental Pinacle is not dismissable, so better hope your CL is not looped.

I'd have your spellthief cohort clonk that spell out of you with his sap of forgetting pain ever happened.

Short duration plus point and click persisting = non issue.  Metamagic Effect it persistent for everyone else, let it end for you.  You've literally got all the time in the world, so no worries.
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Endarire

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Re: Stealing the Erudite/Psion Thunder, the Arcane Way!
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2011, 01:57:22 AM »
May I get a breakdown on how this works?  I'm still confused.
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Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

KellKheraptis

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Re: Stealing the Erudite/Psion Thunder, the Arcane Way!
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2011, 09:32:38 AM »
1)Shards of Leadership trick to ladder up an epic Erudite from your cohort's cohort's cohort's cohort's cohort.
2)Have his ass Psychic Chirurgy every spell and power you want into your brain.
3)Cast Mental Pinnacle, sharing it with your Psicrystal.
4)Manifest Metaconcert, which subsumes all power points.
5)Persist Mental Pinnacle on the Psicrystal, while letting it lapse for you.
6)Enjoy all the benefits of being an all powerful psion, only as an Incantatrix.
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Stealing the Erudite/Psion Thunder, the Arcane Way!
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2011, 02:30:03 AM »
I'm pretty sure you're forgetting something. it's huge.

The ability to manifest.

Think of it this way. Since a wizard "knows" every spell in his spellbook and has no limit on what spell level he may write in a 9th level spell at level 1 provided he succeeds on his spellcraft check. If you were a Cleric 5 / Wizard 1 you could have both a 3rd level spell slot and a dozens of 3rd level arcane spells known. You're leap in logic dictates you qualify for taking levels in Incantatrix, a PrC that requires 3rd level arcane spells, based on the fact you have spell slots and spells known.

But it doesn't work like that. Hell it doesn't even work if both spellcasting abilities are arcane based. Your spellcasting abilities dictates what spells slots and be used with what spells known. By dismissing Mental Pinnacle you have no manifesting ability, just powers known and points. And even if you did have powers known, power points, and a level in psion. You're psion's ability to manifesting ability is still at level 1 and still unable to manifest 9th level powers.

Also, relying on an epic Erudite to make you great?
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

KellKheraptis

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Re: Stealing the Erudite/Psion Thunder, the Arcane Way!
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2011, 09:58:46 AM »
I'm pretty sure you're forgetting something. it's huge.

The ability to manifest.

Think of it this way. Since a wizard "knows" every spell in his spellbook and has no limit on what spell level he may write in a 9th level spell at level 1 provided he succeeds on his spellcraft check. If you were a Cleric 5 / Wizard 1 you could have both a 3rd level spell slot and a dozens of 3rd level arcane spells known. You're leap in logic dictates you qualify for taking levels in Incantatrix, a PrC that requires 3rd level arcane spells, based on the fact you have spell slots and spells known.

But it doesn't work like that. Hell it doesn't even work if both spellcasting abilities are arcane based. Your spellcasting abilities dictates what spells slots and be used with what spells known. By dismissing Mental Pinnacle you have no manifesting ability, just powers known and points. And even if you did have powers known, power points, and a level in psion. You're psion's ability to manifesting ability is still at level 1 and still unable to manifest 9th level powers.

Also, relying on an epic Erudite to make you great?


The wizard isn't manifesting a damn thing, thank you very much ;)  The metaconcert is, which operates at an ML=the wizard's CL at time of casting Mental Pinnacle.  And as for being second best...well this trick is merely meant to add yet another to the long list of ass pulls a wizard is already capable of.
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Stealing the Erudite/Psion Thunder, the Arcane Way!
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2011, 02:18:19 PM »
The wizard isn't manifesting a damn thing, thank you very much ;)  The metaconcert is, which operates at an ML=the wizard's CL at time of casting Mental Pinnacle.  And as for being second best...well this trick is merely meant to add yet another to the long list of ass pulls a wizard is already capable of.
Yes, the Metaconcert is capable of manifesting, but that only works on psionic creatures to begin with. At the moment of Mental Pinnacle ending, you lost all PP & the ability to manifest and became an illegal target for Metaconcert which kicked you out of the group. Ironically at that point, it possibly gives you PP depending how you think things should work (but this is the TO area). Assuming you kept the PP your Psicrystal/Familiar could at that point remanifest Metaconcert and agree to you being in command which would validate things.

So nice find, but I personally dislike it. And not on terms of too powerful for game at all.

Stealing the Erudite's thunder.
Step 1: Admit you suck and bribe the superior Erudite, of higher level no less, to make you great.
Step 2: Make your Familiar more powerful than you.
Step 3: Command your Familiar to return the favor now.
Step 4: Summon a Simulacrum-like creature who can manifest powers you can't and make it do your bidding.
Step 5: Claim awesome by rights of nothing. Anyone with a scroll of Mental Pinnacle and high Diplomacy can do this.
Srsly, the Bard's superior Diplo checks meant he did this years ago, a lucky wizard dominated an Erudite, and a clever one just bound an Erudite or idk, did the whole bestow your powers unto me trick with an overdeity. It just lacks the fireworks and lightshow other TO tricks have :(

Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

KellKheraptis

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Re: Stealing the Erudite/Psion Thunder, the Arcane Way!
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2011, 12:29:06 AM »
The wizard isn't manifesting a damn thing, thank you very much ;)  The metaconcert is, which operates at an ML=the wizard's CL at time of casting Mental Pinnacle.  And as for being second best...well this trick is merely meant to add yet another to the long list of ass pulls a wizard is already capable of.
Yes, the Metaconcert is capable of manifesting, but that only works on psionic creatures to begin with. At the moment of Mental Pinnacle ending, you lost all PP & the ability to manifest and became an illegal target for Metaconcert which kicked you out of the group. Ironically at that point, it possibly gives you PP depending how you think things should work (but this is the TO area). Assuming you kept the PP your Psicrystal/Familiar could at that point remanifest Metaconcert and agree to you being in command which would validate things.

So nice find, but I personally dislike it. And not on terms of too powerful for game at all.

Stealing the Erudite's thunder.
Step 1: Admit you suck and bribe the superior Erudite, of higher level no less, to make you great.
Step 2: Make your Familiar more powerful than you.
Step 3: Command your Familiar to return the favor now.
Step 4: Summon a Simulacrum-like creature who can manifest powers you can't and make it do your bidding.
Step 5: Claim awesome by rights of nothing. Anyone with a scroll of Mental Pinnacle and high Diplomacy can do this.
Srsly, the Bard's superior Diplo checks meant he did this years ago, a lucky wizard dominated an Erudite, and a clever one just bound an Erudite or idk, did the whole bestow your powers unto me trick with an overdeity. It just lacks the fireworks and lightshow other TO tricks have :(



I think the main point of contention is that it's using another class to gain more power.  An StP is basically doing the same thing, and is arguably the top of Tier 0 (along with a TO Wizard).  So no real change in status, and what wizard isn't capable of using and putting away wet a being supposedly far more powerful than itself?  Shadowcraft magi do it all the time with Miracles.  Besides...all that said, the absolute true pinnacle of this kind of power would probably stem from some form of TO Mind Mage/Ardent/Shadow Templar (a work in progress of mine) abusing a massive metaconcert node network using Taint.  Wanna build it with me?  Bearsarebrown and I already laid the groundwork :P
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Stealing the Erudite/Psion Thunder, the Arcane Way!
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2011, 11:47:13 PM »
Besides...all that said, the absolute true pinnacle of this kind of power would probably stem from some form of TO Mind Mage/Ardent/Shadow Templar (a work in progress of mine) abusing a massive metaconcert node network using Taint.  Wanna build it with me?  Bearsarebrown and I already laid the groundwork :P
No, but if you want I'll make an honorable mention of a commoner using a Hardened Obdurium framed Mirror of Opposition (with a gemmed leather strap) as a shield armed with a ready action to insta-clone you faster than Ice Assassin with triple the results.

See? That is game breaking (and core). 4 on 1 (and three of those four are the 1) is unfair as hell and requires an absolute defense (I can't see my self!) to even deal with. And anyone can use this for < 110k. I hope to see better results from the mighty Kell next TO thread.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

KellKheraptis

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Re: Stealing the Erudite/Psion Thunder, the Arcane Way!
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2011, 11:54:42 PM »
Besides...all that said, the absolute true pinnacle of this kind of power would probably stem from some form of TO Mind Mage/Ardent/Shadow Templar (a work in progress of mine) abusing a massive metaconcert node network using Taint.  Wanna build it with me?  Bearsarebrown and I already laid the groundwork :P
No, but if you want I'll make an honorable mention of a commoner using a Hardened Obdurium framed Mirror of Opposition (with a gemmed leather strap) as a shield armed with a ready action to insta-clone you faster than Ice Assassin with triple the results.

See? That is game breaking (and core). 4 on 1 (and three of those four are the 1) is unfair as hell and requires an absolute defense (I can't see my self!) to even deal with. And anyone can use this for < 110k. I hope to see better results from the mighty Kell next TO thread.

That's sort of like saying anyone with a Candle of Invocation can win D&D, though.  We all know it's instant Pun-ification.  My next TO project is seeing how close to a psion/erudite/ardent I can get action-wise with an arcane base.  I think my next thread in Min/Max will be gathering a compilation of action abuses and all the million and one uses thereof.
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