Author Topic: [PF/3.5 mix] Two concepts - Ultimate Weapon Master & Unarmed Master  (Read 5944 times)

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AleksanderTheGreat

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I'm making 2 NPCs for my homebrew setting. They're supposed to be living legends in this worlds martial art history, the best of the best. They will be epic level but here please post only suggestions up to 20-21th level. I have no experience with levels higher then 10 and I rarely played beyond 8th.

First NPC I want to be a master in wielding ANY weapon, or at least as many weapons as possible in DnD (Warblades weapon apptitude should work for this, I think) and do amazing things with it. I don't want a One-Trick Pony. If this isn't possible then I just homebrew some special abilities for him, but I would like to avoid giving them powers out of nowhere.
What I need him to do: decent damage, be able to make a single powerful hit AND many (weaker) hits, nice accuracy (obviously), multiple ways to deal with enemies (not only straight dishing out damage but also some BFC, status effects, etc.). Best example of such a character is Shigure Kousaka from the anime/manga History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi.

Second char. basicly the same, but unarmed only.

No full-casters/psionics but magic overall is allowed.
Try to make them not dependant on magic items (except weapon of course).
TripleQuadruple gestalt variant is in use.

Weapon Master build/concept so far:
Quote
Warblade (ToB) 30
//
Swordsage (ToB) 20 / Master of Nine (ToB) 10
//
Monk (of the Lotus; Kung Fu Genius) (PFSRD) 1 / Swashbuckler (CW) 1 / Crusader (ToB) 2 / Ranger (two-handed style; urban companion) (PFSRD) 4 / Swashbuckler +2 / Mobile Fighter (PFSRD) 20
//
Scout (CAdv) 12 / Factotum (Dsc) 3 / Ranger +2 / Master Thrower (CW) 5 / Scout +8

Also - I made that homebrew feat for weapon aptitude. Thanks Suzerain for your great idea. :D

Prodigy of Weapons (Epic)
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Melee or Ranged Weapon Mastery, Weapon Supremacy, weapon aptitude ability.
Benefit: You apply every feat that usually applies only to a single kind of weapon (such as Weapon Supremacy) to all weapons that you are proficient with and have Weapon Focus in.
You can use your weapon aptitude ability as a full-round action.
Normal: It takes about an hour of training to make yourself familiar enough with a weapon to put your weapons training to use with it, and you can only designate one weapon per feat that weapon aptitude applies to.

Please help.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 03:41:00 PM by AleksanderTheGreat »
Quote from: Sephirothsword117
Quote from: Solo
Optimizing is the antithesis of roleplaying because it takes focus away from the important parts of the game.
I'm inclined to disagree. People work hard on there characters, there personality, back ground, appearance, so forth. No one wants there character that they have invested time, energy, thought, and probably emotion in to be killed because they didn't take strong enough feats or skills or spells or what have you.

Prime32

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I remember a homebrew feat which let monks use both Flurry of Blows and Decisive Strike. Might help. Otherwise a warblade or swordsage would be best.

How would you feel using VoP?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 11:29:32 AM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

AleksanderTheGreat

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VoP... For the Weapon Master it would be couter-productive. For the Unarmed Master... I don't know, I would rather not make them too goodie-good, if you know what I mean.

Maybe something like that:
Weapon Master - Warblade 20 // Swordsage 20 // Fighter 20 (or Fighter X / Prestige X)?

BTW - pic for Weapon Master for inspiration ;):
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 11:38:44 AM by AleksanderTheGreat »
Quote from: Sephirothsword117
Quote from: Solo
Optimizing is the antithesis of roleplaying because it takes focus away from the important parts of the game.
I'm inclined to disagree. People work hard on there characters, there personality, back ground, appearance, so forth. No one wants there character that they have invested time, energy, thought, and probably emotion in to be killed because they didn't take strong enough feats or skills or spells or what have you.

MAdgryphon

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Okay, I bring this up purely because of the below paragraph, though the choice itself is highly unoptimized
First NPC I want to be a master in wielding ANY weapon, or at least as many weapons as possible in DnD (Warblades weapon apptitude should work for this, I think) and do amazing things with it. I don't want a One-Trick Pony. If this isn't possible then I just homebrew some special abilities for him, but I would like to avoid giving them powers out of nowhere.

A one level dip [edit]in master of masks (complete scoundrel)[/edit] will get you proficiency with all exotic weapons. That and a level of any number of classes means you have a baseline of excellence for any weapon that you find, or is ever invented. Heck, if you wanted to be particular about him being Str based, you tack on Brutal Throw, and most weapons are instantly based on strength, aside from bows, xbows, and the like. Now, as for being a "master" with all of them, you're probably right on track with weapon aptitude. But that's merely one person's opinion, and a not-really-all-that-great-an-optimizer, as well.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 11:01:22 PM by MAdgryphon »

dark_samuari

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VoP... For the Weapon Master it would be couter-productive. For the Unarmed Master... I don't know, I would rather not make them too goodie-good, if you know what I mean.

You could always change Vow of Poverty to Vow of Pride. Do some easy switching and instead of exalted feats give vile/deformity/devil-touched feats.

But regarding a master unarmed fighter perhaps something like Unarmed Swordsage 20/Factotum 20/Scout 20 (using the sparing dummy from A&E to activate skirmish damage every time the master moves).

AleksanderTheGreat

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Quote
You could always change Vow of Poverty to Vow of Pride. Do some easy switching and instead of exalted feats give vile/deformity/devil-touched feats.
That's a good idea. I just refluff VoP and change some of its requirements and limitations. That should work good. Something like: changing sacred/exalted bonuses to insight/luck, making the character UNABLE to fight without SOMETHING in her hand (anything will suffice), allow using nonmagical items and weapons, etc.
As for the vile/deformity/devil-touched/etc. - I think about it. They will be neutral or good but not "saint" good, that's what I meant in my previous postAh, to Hell with it, lets make her good and VoPs limitation to not kill living creatures (basicly she gets Vow of Nonvilence and Vow of Peace as a bonus whether she likes it or not :P). Maybe I just make them fighter bonus feats.
Update on the build for Weapon Master:
Warblade 20 // Fighter (Mobility ACF) 20 // Swordsage 20

Quote
But regarding a master unarmed fighter perhaps something like Unarmed Swordsage 20/Factotum 20/Scout 20 (using the sparing dummy from A&E to activate skirmish damage every time the master moves).
I was thinking more of: Quiggong (sp?) Monk 18 / ? 2 // Fighter (Mobility CF) 20 // Swordsage 20.

I am VERY FAR away from my books, so I can't give anything more specific then that, sorry.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2011, 09:20:50 AM by AleksanderTheGreat »
Quote from: Sephirothsword117
Quote from: Solo
Optimizing is the antithesis of roleplaying because it takes focus away from the important parts of the game.
I'm inclined to disagree. People work hard on there characters, there personality, back ground, appearance, so forth. No one wants there character that they have invested time, energy, thought, and probably emotion in to be killed because they didn't take strong enough feats or skills or spells or what have you.

Suzerain

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I'd say the "ultimate weapon master" is the harder of the two, so I'll throw some ideas around.

Options:
1) Don't use anything in the Weapon Focus Chain.
    This is probably the easiest way to resolve this. Be good at what you do no matter what your weapon is.

2) Do use the Weapon Focus Chain.
  • Use psychic reformation to change your feats in the middle of combat. Since you're epic level, maybe the XP cost is negiglible. Otherwise give him a way to avoid the cost.
  • Homebrew.

A free-action aptitude change is hardly any more powerful than the first level warblade ability. Except if you were to lose your weapon all the time (which you shouldn't). If want him to be able to use his Aptitude with two weapons at once, though, that's more powerful and would make a half-decent feat. Since you'd still require feats for TWF to make use of it, though, it's still not a terribly good feat. The prereqs would depend on how much you want your players to use/not use the feat. I'm assuming you want the NPC to be as unique as possible, so I put heavy prereqs in. My suggestion:

Extraordinary Weapon Aptitude (or 'Genius Weapon Master' if you don't like the similarity to the warblade ability)
Prerequisites: One of the following: Melee Weapon Mastery (piercing), Melee Weapon Mastery (slashing), Melee Weapon Mastery (blunt), Ranged Weapon Mastery
Benefit: You apply every feat that usually applies only to a single kind of weapon (such as Weapon Focus) to all weapons that receive a bonus from any of the prerequisite feats that you possess.
Special: A fighter may select this as one of his fighter bonus feats.


I think that's a feat the designers could've come up with. That is, you need to keep in mind that in general, it's a giant waste of feats.

You may need to tweak the wording a bit so this feat qualifies you for another use of Meele Weapon Mastery (this is definitely possible with blunt/piercing, since the morningstar specifies blunt and piercing; your job is to find one more 'hybrid' weapon). Then you'll only have to purchase the chain one time, and get to apply every last feat of it to all weapons you have.


If you don't care that everyone and their mother can do similar things, use this version:

Improved Weapon Aptitude
Prerequisites: Weapon Aptitude ability
Benefit: You can take a standard action to make yourself familiar with a weapon. Also, you can designate several weapons at once for the feats weapon aptitude applies to. For example, you can wield a longsword and a morningstar and have the benefit of weapon aptitude apply to both at once.
This otherwise works like the Warblade's weapon aptitude ability.
Normal: It takes about an hour of training to make yourself familiar enough with a weapon to put your weapons training to use with it, and you can only designate one weapon per feat that weapon aptitude applies to.


Of course, fixing the fighter (and fighter feats) in the first place would probably be a better option, but it would take a lot of work and if you've followed some threads here, people don't really agree on how eaxctly to do that.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2011, 04:53:53 PM by Suzerain »

TheEndIsNear

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Makes me think of Jax from League of Legends (fights with a lantern and is really good at it) his joke is: "Imagine if I had a REAL weapon."

I'd go:
Master of Mask 1
Exotic Weapon Master 3
Master of Nine 10
Crusader 20.
Fight 6 (Dungeon Crasher)
Warblade 20 (Use maneuvers alot)
Basicly, make him not focus on weapons and have tons of abilities, therefor with any weapon (He's proficient with all) he can do tons of stuff. Maneuvers are great for this.

And:
Monk 20 (Decisive Strike)
Arcane Swordsage (Flavor the few spells as just being cool) He moves insanely fast from here to there (dimension door) or anything.
Fighter 6 (Dungeon Crasher) (I like this) and Various monk prestige classes (Fist of the forest for one) And many feats like snap kick or ways to get extra attacks.

Decisive strike pushing into a wall for insane damage is an awesome way to show how bad ass that guy is. Runs up punch with 1 hit through wall for ungodly damage. Wipe shirt walk away.

Due to their overwhelming levels they will be above the players but won't make the players feel overwhelemed when they reach their levels.

AleksanderTheGreat

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@ Suzerain
Tempest allows to use Weapon Focus chain with both weapons that you dual-wield (for example: if you have Weapon Focus in axe and you fight with axe in one hand and short sword in second hand you can apply Weapon Focus to the short sword). But your homebrew feat is better. :P
Proficiency in all weapons - I just give her a homebrewed epic feat for that.

@ TheEndIsNear
I will consider your advice.

EDIT: I think I go even further and make them quadruple gestalt.

Weapon Master:
Warblade 30
//
Swordsage 20 / Master of Nine 10
//
Monk 1 / Rogue 6 / Swashbuckler 3 / Mobile Fighter 20
//
Ranger 10 / Exotic Weapon Master 3 / Uncanny Trickster 2 / Master Thrower 5 / Ranger +10

EDIT: An alternative to the variant VoP idea is just giving her the Paragon Creature template and refluffing it as inborn talent coupled with many years of intensive training.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 12:32:08 PM by AleksanderTheGreat »
Quote from: Sephirothsword117
Quote from: Solo
Optimizing is the antithesis of roleplaying because it takes focus away from the important parts of the game.
I'm inclined to disagree. People work hard on there characters, there personality, back ground, appearance, so forth. No one wants there character that they have invested time, energy, thought, and probably emotion in to be killed because they didn't take strong enough feats or skills or spells or what have you.

TheEndIsNear

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The this seems to be going just make it a single class 20 BaB/d12 hd /12x3 saves and give it the abilities you want. I konw how this stuff ends up quadstalt level 120 ends up with you spending 20 levels on a class just for its last ability. Maybe just handing out abilities will be easier and alot less harder to keep track of.

AleksanderTheGreat

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Re: [PF/3.5 mix] Two concepts - Ultimate Weapon Master & Unarmed Master
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2011, 06:14:33 AM »
The this seems to be going just make it a single class 20 BaB/d12 hd /12x3 saves and give it the abilities you want. I konw how this stuff ends up quadstalt level 120 ends up with you spending 20 levels on a class just for its last ability. Maybe just handing out abilities will be easier and alot less harder to keep track of.
No, thank you.

Re-build:
Warblade 30
//
Swordsage 20 / Master of Nine 10
//
Monk (of the Lotus) 1 / Crusader 2 / Ranger (two-handed style; urban companion) 4 / Swashbuckler 3 / Mobile Fighter 20
//
Scout (CAdv) 10 / Exotic Weapon Master 3 / Uncanny Trickster 2 / Master Thrower 5 / Scout +10

BTW. This NPC is looking more and more like Shigure, lol. She even has a pet mouse. :(
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 05:43:39 AM by AleksanderTheGreat »
Quote from: Sephirothsword117
Quote from: Solo
Optimizing is the antithesis of roleplaying because it takes focus away from the important parts of the game.
I'm inclined to disagree. People work hard on there characters, there personality, back ground, appearance, so forth. No one wants there character that they have invested time, energy, thought, and probably emotion in to be killed because they didn't take strong enough feats or skills or spells or what have you.

AleksanderTheGreat

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Re: [PF/3.5 mix] Two concepts - Ultimate Weapon Master & Unarmed Master
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2011, 05:44:11 AM »
I updated the build (added Factotum). No pet mouse for me. Oh well. :(
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 06:26:07 AM by AleksanderTheGreat »
Quote from: Sephirothsword117
Quote from: Solo
Optimizing is the antithesis of roleplaying because it takes focus away from the important parts of the game.
I'm inclined to disagree. People work hard on there characters, there personality, back ground, appearance, so forth. No one wants there character that they have invested time, energy, thought, and probably emotion in to be killed because they didn't take strong enough feats or skills or spells or what have you.

AleksanderTheGreat

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Re: [PF/3.5 mix] Two concepts - Ultimate Weapon Master & Unarmed Master
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2011, 03:38:10 PM »
More changes. now it looks like that:
Quote
Warblade (ToB) 30
//
Swordsage (ToB) 20 / Master of Nine (ToB) 10
//
Monk (of the Lotus; Kung Fu Genius) (PFSRD) 1 / Swashbuckler (CW) 1 / Crusader (ToB) 2 / Ranger (two-handed style; urban companion) (PFSRD) 4 / Swashbuckler +2 / Mobile Fighter (PFSRD) 20
//
Scout (CAdv) 12 / Factotum (Dsc) 3 / Ranger +2 / Master Thrower (CW) 5 / Scout +8

Also - I made that homebrew feat for weapon aptitude. Thanks Suzerain for your great idea. :D

Prodigy of Weapons (Epic)
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Melee or Ranged Weapon Mastery, Weapon Supremacy, weapon aptitude ability.
Benefit: You apply every feat that usually applies only to a single kind of weapon (such as Weapon Supremacy) to all weapons that you are proficient in.
You can use your weapon aptitude ability as a full-round action.
Normal: It takes about an hour of training to make yourself familiar enough with a weapon to put your weapons training to use with it, and you can only designate one weapon per feat that weapon aptitude applies to.

BTW. Pet mouse is back. :D

EDIT: Another homebrew feat that I created and am using:

Improved Weapon Aptitude (Epic)
Prerequisites: weapon aptitude ability, Catch Off-Guard, Throw Anything, proficiency in all simple, all martial and at least 4 exotic weapons.
Benefit: You gain proficiency in ALL weapons.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 03:57:25 PM by AleksanderTheGreat »
Quote from: Sephirothsword117
Quote from: Solo
Optimizing is the antithesis of roleplaying because it takes focus away from the important parts of the game.
I'm inclined to disagree. People work hard on there characters, there personality, back ground, appearance, so forth. No one wants there character that they have invested time, energy, thought, and probably emotion in to be killed because they didn't take strong enough feats or skills or spells or what have you.

AleksanderTheGreat

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Re: [PF/3.5 mix] Two concepts - Ultimate Weapon Master & Unarmed Master
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2011, 04:58:35 PM »
Feats:
Quote
(1) Kung Fu Genius (Dr319)
(1) Combat Expertise (SRD) (human)
(1) Throw Anything (PFSRD) (flaw)
(1) Adaptive Style (ToB) (flaw)
(1) Weapon Focus (dagger, short sword, sai, siangham, unarmed strike, spiked chain) (PFSRD) (swordsage)
(1) Improved Unarmed Strike (PFSRD) (monk)
(1) Catch Off-Guard (PFSRD) (monk)
(2) Weapon Finesse (PFSRD)(swashbuckler)
(3) Graceful Edge (Dng128)
(4) Dodge (PFSRD) (scout)
(5) Shadow Blade (ToB)
(5) Combat Reflexes (PFSRD) (warblade)
(6) Power Attack (SRD) (ranger)
(7) Improved Sunder (SRD)
(7) Endurance (PFSRD) (ranger)
(8) Point-Blank Shot (PFSRD) (scout)
(9) Two-Weapon Fighting (SRD)
(9) Ironheart Aura (ToB) (warblade)
(11) Stormguard Warrior (ToB)
(11) Weapon Specialization (PFSRD) (fighter)
(12) Greater Weapon Focus (PFSRD) (fighter)
(12) Precise Shot (PFSRD) (scout)
(13) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (SRD)
(13) Blind-Fight (PFSRD) (warblade)
(14) Greater Weapon Specialization (PFSRD) (fighter)
(15) Double Hit (Min)
(16) Melee Weapon Mastery (PHB2) (fighter)
(17) Unnerving Calm (ToB)
(17) Improved Initiative (PFSRD) (warblade)
(17) Great Cleave (PFSRD) (ranger)
(18) Weapon Supremacy (PHB2) (fighter)
(18) Quick Draw (PFSRD) (master thrower)
(19) Perfect Clarity of Mind and Body (ToB)
(20) Blade Meditation (ironheart) (ToB) (fighter)
(21) Prodigy of Weapons (hbr)
(21) Snatch Arrows (PFSRD) (master thrower)
(22) Utter Diamond Clarity (GitPhbr) (warblade)
(22) Robilar's Gambit (PHB2) (fighter)
(23) Improved Weapon Aptitude (hbr)
(24) Dual Stance Mastery (GitPhbr) (warblade)
(24) Far Shot (SRD) (fighter)
(25) Master of One (GitPhbr)
(26) Adamantine General (GitPhbr) (warblade)
(26) Improved Combat Expertise (CW) (fighter)
(26) Quuick REconnoiter (CAdv) (scout)
(27) Sure Footing of the Stance Master (GitPhbr)
(28) Strike of the Dual Adept (GitPhbr) (warblade)
(28) Martial Study (ToB) (fighter)
(29) Epic Blade Meditation (GitPhbr)
(30) Strike of the Triadic Master (GitPhbr) (warblade)
(30) Improved Feint (SRD) (fighter)
(30) Rapid Reload (SRD) (scout)
Feats are done.

EDIT: What maneuvers would you suggest to take? I have 3 maneuvers and 4 stances from Warblade (don't bother with Iron Heart, I've got them all for free thanks to the Master of One feat) and 40 maneuvers and 8 stances from Swordsage (but 15 maneuvers and 2 stances can be taken from any discipline, thanks to Mof9). Also 5 maneuvers and 2 stances from Crusader.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 06:39:12 AM by AleksanderTheGreat »
Quote from: Sephirothsword117
Quote from: Solo
Optimizing is the antithesis of roleplaying because it takes focus away from the important parts of the game.
I'm inclined to disagree. People work hard on there characters, there personality, back ground, appearance, so forth. No one wants there character that they have invested time, energy, thought, and probably emotion in to be killed because they didn't take strong enough feats or skills or spells or what have you.