Author Topic: Reducing the level of blasting spells  (Read 11060 times)

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RobbyPants

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Re: Reducing the level of blasting spells
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2011, 05:51:10 PM »
That was pretty much it. Fireball IS worth a level 2 slot because it does more than deal CL d6s, it does CL d6s to everything in a dungeon room.
I know this is one example about goblins, but I'm going to requote myself, here:

Actually, given a goblin warrior (2-9 HP), if you deal 1d6 damage, on a failed save, any one goblin has a 31.25% chance (15/48) of dropping/being disabled (assuming you roll for HP).  If you take the average HP, you have a 33% to bring them to 0 or lower HP.

So, that means that a 1st level Fireball will drop about a third of the goblins in a room and seriously mess up the other two thirds.  But, this is D&D land, and those other two thirds are at full offensive potential.  Now, there are two things to take from this, that are both really important:

1) If you're fighting an EL 1 encounter, you're fighting three goblins.  That means you just use a 1st level slot to kill one goblin and mess two others up.  Color me unimpressed.

2) Yes, it is technically possible that you could kill 10 or maybe even 15 goblins with one 1st level fireball, but that means, statistically speaking, that there are 20 to 30 more left standing!  At 1st level!  You don't fight those kinds of fights at 1st level!  I mean, six goblins should be a 1st level boss fight, and even then, you're only killing two.
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veekie

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Re: Reducing the level of blasting spells
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2011, 06:05:26 AM »
My personal considerations:
Single target, Xd6 - 1st level
AoE - Justification for increased level
Rider effect - Justification for increased level

That was pretty much it. Fireball IS worth a level 2 slot because it does more than deal CL d6s, it does CL d6s to everything in a dungeon room.

And yet that's exactly mine and Robby's point. A spell that simply deals 1d6 damage to one target is definitely not worth a 1st level spell slot. A spell that deals 3d6 damage to one target wouldn't even be worth a 1st level spell slot because a Fighter or Rogue does that much damage with their basic melee attack every round of every combat.
Point taken, make that SMALL AoE or secondary attribute at level 1.
So a level 1, pure Xd6 spell might hit 2-3 enemies if you aim it right(Burning Hands for example), or perfectly hit 1 enemy(magic missile). If it's single target then it needs to be accurate(not a problem for a touch spell), superior range, or carry some rider effect.
A cantrip should be doing the Xd6 thing. If cantrips were at will.
Potential cantrips:
Ray of Frost might instead hit for ranged touch 1d6+CL at Close range.
Shocking Grasp hits for melee touch at a significant attack bonus, for CLd8 at +4 to hit on metal.
Jolt goes for a Ref save half, CLd6 30ft Line.
Flame goes for a Medium ranged 5ft radius ref save CLd6.
The mind transcends the body.
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"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
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To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

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Littha

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Re: Reducing the level of blasting spells
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2011, 08:47:20 AM »
Quick and nasty: what if you take the damage of an evocation spell (and not conjuration and the like) and multiply it by the spell level +1.

Obviously this means that a level 9 spell would deal 170-200 d6 damage which is a whole lot of dice to roll but it would certainly be impressive enough to warrant a 9th level spell slot. Averages at about 700 damage so it might need some tweaking though.

RobbyPants

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Re: Reducing the level of blasting spells
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2011, 09:49:19 AM »
Point taken, make that SMALL AoE or secondary attribute at level 1.
So a level 1, pure Xd6 spell might hit 2-3 enemies if you aim it right(Burning Hands for example), or perfectly hit 1 enemy(magic missile). If it's single target then it needs to be accurate(not a problem for a touch spell), superior range, or carry some rider effect.
A cantrip should be doing the Xd6 thing. If cantrips were at will.
Potential cantrips:
Ray of Frost might instead hit for ranged touch 1d6+CL at Close range.
Shocking Grasp hits for melee touch at a significant attack bonus, for CLd8 at +4 to hit on metal.
Jolt goes for a Ref save half, CLd6 30ft Line.
Flame goes for a Medium ranged 5ft radius ref save CLd6.
Well, Frank already suggested putting Shocking Grasp, Burning Hands, and Magic Missile all as cantrips already.

Making new spells would be better, but I'm just looking for quick and dirty at this point.  I'm looking to see where the non-core Evocations and some Conjurations should go, given Frank's list as a starting point.


Quick and nasty: what if you take the damage of an evocation spell (and not conjuration and the like) and multiply it by the spell level +1.

Obviously this means that a level 9 spell would deal 170-200 d6 damage which is a whole lot of dice to roll but it would certainly be impressive enough to warrant a 9th level spell slot. Averages at about 700 damage so it might need some tweaking though.
The whole point of this approach is to not increase the damage, but rather to make it so you're not spending your top slots blasting.  Blasting can be a good approach sometimes, but a caster just doesn't have enough spell slots to pull it off regularly.  It's all their in the spoilered section of the OP.
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Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
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I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
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Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
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I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
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Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Littha

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Re: Reducing the level of blasting spells
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2011, 09:53:36 AM »
Quick and nasty: what if you take the damage of an evocation spell (and not conjuration and the like) and multiply it by the spell level +1.

Obviously this means that a level 9 spell would deal 170-200 d6 damage which is a whole lot of dice to roll but it would certainly be impressive enough to warrant a 9th level spell slot. Averages at about 700 damage so it might need some tweaking though.
The whole point of this approach is to not increase the damage, but rather to make it so you're not spending your top slots blasting.  Blasting can be a good approach sometimes, but a caster just doesn't have enough spell slots to pull it off regularly.  It's all their in the spoilered section of the OP.

I know, this is the alternate solution: Boost the damage enough to make it worth casting

veekie

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Re: Reducing the level of blasting spells
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2011, 10:34:29 AM »
I think straight up increasing damage is a bit misrepresenting the use of highly damaging spells, and puts them in direct competition with melee/missile. Better to go with grand areas and damage over time, etc, than to go head to head with the specialists in damage.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

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RobbyPants

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Re: Reducing the level of blasting spells
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2011, 12:20:15 PM »
The thing is, blasting spells then basically become save-or-dies, which might be mitigated by energy resistance/immunity.  I'd rather avoid that.  The goal of this thread isn't to put Fireball on par with other 3rd level spells; it's to figure out how non-core Evocations and Conjurations fit in given these new assignments.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

ninjarabbit

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Re: Reducing the level of blasting spells
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2011, 12:59:44 PM »
Another thing I'd do is move maw of chaos, disintegrate, and the orb of x spells to evocation. There's really no reason why those other schools should have blasting spells on par with evocation.

Littha

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Re: Reducing the level of blasting spells
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2011, 04:17:44 PM »
The problem with reducing the levels on spells like that is it leaves evocation specialists in an odd place concerning higher level spells. Sure you can have a load of metamagic stacked on top to make up for it but they would be in an odd place with no 7th/8th/9th level spells.

Solution to this is to design more evocation spells to take those places I suppose, but that is a lot of work.

Otto the Bugbear

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Re: Reducing the level of blasting spells
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2011, 12:34:59 AM »
I guess I approached this discussion from a different perspective than others.

When a defense to lower DD spell levels is pointing out that the melee guy is dealing X damage every round at these levels, my initial response would have to be...

Good! Exactly! That's what I'm looking for out of low level. If at high level the fighter-types are sucking hind tit while the gods of D&D do all the heavy lifting, I expect and want the caster types to have nothing even remotely comparable damage-wise during low level play. In fact, I really want low level casters (say, level 1-5) to have no powers that end an encounter single-handed. 3e already goes too far during this span of levels with quite a few spells that utterly dominate low level encounters. (Not that DD spells utterly dominate low level encounters; you know the spells I'm talking about.)

I certainly don't want to homogenize classes so that their abilities end up dealing like amounts of damage.

SneeR

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Re: Reducing the level of blasting spells
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2011, 01:38:21 AM »
I certainly don't want to homogenize classes so that their abilities end up dealing like amounts of damage.

Due to scaling, there would be no increase in damage. A level 1 fireball cast by a lvl 1 wizard does 1d6 (albeit to 44 people, potentially). A fighter still does his 2d6+4 with his greatsword. Nothing is getting homogenized.
We aren't talking about entire classes, either, here. Just evocation, a generally underpowered school of magic.
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SneeR
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I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
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veekie

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Re: Reducing the level of blasting spells
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2011, 02:37:54 AM »
Well if they're packing in tight formation for you to blow up 44 of them they're kinda asking for it :D
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

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borsniel

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Re: Reducing the level of blasting spells
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2011, 03:20:50 AM »
imo magic is already powerful enough with out a boost and giving it one will just make the mundane warrior classes more and more useless

veekie

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Re: Reducing the level of blasting spells
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2011, 03:37:58 AM »
That applies mostly if you correct evocations by attacking from the same approach as mundane's greater strengths of damage(not to mention you might as well use a Save or Die). I figure expand upon magic as the premier MASSED and structural damage evocations. Make it better at targeting absurd areas etc. The point to note here is that CL d6s alone do not make a high level spell, not that high level spells should do a lot more damage.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

bkdubs123

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Re: Reducing the level of blasting spells
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2011, 03:43:32 AM »
Here's the thing. 1st level Fighters (or perhaps more accurately Barbarians or Warblades) deal enough damage to occasionally end EL 1, EL 2, and sometimes even EL 3 encounters in 1 or 2 rounds, but only if those encounters are against a single Grimlock, Choker, or even a single Centaur. A 1st level Wizard casting Fireball will also deal enough damage to occasionally end EL 1 or even EL 2 encounters, but only if those encounters are against two Hobgoblin Warriors, three Goblin Warriors, or four Housecats.

The Fighter can sometimes end an encounter against two Hobgoblin warriors in 1 round (and a Warblade more often than sometimes). The Wizard (using Fireball, I mean) can never end an encounter against a Grimlock in one round and only stands a chance at ending an EL 3 encounter is by throwing loads of creatures below CR 1 at the party. Does this mean the Fighter is overpowered? No. Does the fact that Wizards are more powerful than Fighters at high level mean that the Wizard should totally blow at low level? Not at all.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 03:48:05 AM by bkdubs123 »

RobbyPants

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Re: Reducing the level of blasting spells
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2011, 10:44:47 AM »
I guess I approached this discussion from a different perspective than others.

When a defense to lower DD spell levels is pointing out that the melee guy is dealing X damage every round at these levels, my initial response would have to be...

Good! Exactly! That's what I'm looking for out of low level. If at high level the fighter-types are sucking hind tit while the gods of D&D do all the heavy lifting, I expect and want the caster types to have nothing even remotely comparable damage-wise during low level play. In fact, I really want low level casters (say, level 1-5) to have no powers that end an encounter single-handed. 3e already goes too far during this span of levels with quite a few spells that utterly dominate low level encounters. (Not that DD spells utterly dominate low level encounters; you know the spells I'm talking about.)

I certainly don't want to homogenize classes so that their abilities end up dealing like amounts of damage.
Well, and you're right... to a point.  That's a topic of balance between casters and non-casters.  It's a good topic... for another thread.

The point of this thread is to talk about balance between Evocation and the other schools.  I don't particularly care if it makes casters more powerful at this point.  I care about making Evocation not be the first thing everyone dumps.  I care about making it good enough that you don't immediately want to play a specialist just so you can dump it.  In addition, I'd like to discuss where some other popular blasting spells should fall in line given the spell list in the OP.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Otto the Bugbear

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Re: Reducing the level of blasting spells
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2011, 01:11:46 AM »
Well, and you're right... to a point.  That's a topic of balance between casters and non-casters.  It's a good topic... for another thread.

Understood. The topic was brought up by another poster as a point of comparison.

Quote
The point of this thread is to talk about balance between Evocation and the other schools.  I don't particularly care if it makes casters more powerful at this point.  I care about making Evocation not be the first thing everyone dumps.  I care about making it good enough that you don't immediately want to play a specialist just so you can dump it.  In addition, I'd like to discuss where some other popular blasting spells should fall in line given the spell list in the OP.

Ok. Just to reiterate, my preference would be to add effects to the spells rather than just lower the spell levels. Some could be lowered -- polar ray -- while also adding additional effects.

Cold spells give Dex penalties or slow or hold foes.
Lightning spells effect metal-clad foes more.

Or base it on the area.
Burst spells fling foes outward. (and prone?)
You can ricochet line spells. (simultaneously dealing damage to the object ricocheted off of?)
Cone spells bull rush foes.

Just a thought.

SneeR

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Re: Reducing the level of blasting spells
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2011, 01:48:41 AM »
That is a brilliant idea! If we could just list a bunch of rider effects of common evocation archetypes, we could apply them to every spell and make them worth their ink.

But to be brutally honest, that is much harder work than just lowering the spell levels and sticking with the essence of the spells, which is "throw lightning, drops fools." I would love to have Lightning Bolt ricochet, though.
The answer to everything:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
SneeR
[spoiler]
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
When another driver brandishes a holy symbol and begins glowing with divine light, seek cover or get spattered with zombie brains. I do not see what is so complicated about this.
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Reducing the level of blasting spells
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2011, 01:56:39 AM »
Yeah, the superior solution is to reengineer the spells, but even so you're talking about rewriting one of the most populous spell schools in D&D. All of it.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

RobbyPants

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Re: Reducing the level of blasting spells
« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2011, 09:23:08 AM »
I already did that here a couple of years ago.  I was just looking at trying to figure out what other spells could get lowered to match a bit closer to the list in the OP.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
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Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
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