Author Topic: Claws of the Beast vs. Tashalatora?  (Read 7746 times)

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Luckanan

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Claws of the Beast vs. Tashalatora?
« on: May 13, 2011, 08:19:37 AM »
Making an Ardent for a Pathfinder/3.5 game.  Going melee and can't decide between augmented Claws of the Beast or a one-level Monk dip plus Tashalatora. 

Monk/Tashalatora gets me a nice touch AC/CMD and would free up powers known that I'd otherwise spend on Inertial Armor and Claws of the Beast. And by using the Pathfind Monk I get full "virtual" BAB for my unarmed attacks.

Claws of the Beast is more damage per attack but less attacks (even with rapidstrike).  It's easy to augment with Metaphysical Claws.  And Inertial Armor, while burning a power known, is a higher AC then Monk+high wisdom.

Feats are about a wash (Tashalatora vs. Rapidstrike).

Anyone have experience going either route?

Thanks  :)

Mixster

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Re: Claws of the Beast vs. Tashalatora?
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2011, 09:15:31 AM »
I don't get why you need the monk dip for Tashalatora.
It says you monk and manifester class stack, so you could be ardent 3 + monk 0 = 3?
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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skydragonknight

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Re: Claws of the Beast vs. Tashalatora?
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2011, 10:10:45 AM »
I don't get why you need the monk dip for Tashalatora.
It says you monk and manifester class stack, so you could be ardent 3 + monk 0 = 3?

The prerequisite for Tashalatora is Monastic Training, one of the few feats to have a class level requirement..

At higher levels where you have Greater Flurry, Tashalatora really shines. I'd go Monk 1/Ardent 10/Slayer 9 for any game starting at level 11 or higher. Greater Flurry and Dominant ideal ACF assure solid gameplay.

There's also more items that specifically support unarmed strike damage, especially in Eberron (which if you're using Tashalatora you have access to anyway!). Kalastar with Ectoplasmic Fist (ECS), Mighty Arms Warforged Graft (Faiths of Eberron) and the Battlefist (ECS) component the graft lets you use will double your base unarmed damage for less than 10k (and about 3 lost hit points).

Although if you're at mid levels or very high (greater rapidstrike?) levels and can't readily acquire uncommon/unusual items with your wealth, I can see a solid argument for a classic Elan "King of Smack".
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Mixster

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Re: Claws of the Beast vs. Tashalatora?
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2011, 10:47:33 AM »
I don't get why you need the monk dip for Tashalatora.
It says you monk and manifester class stack, so you could be ardent 3 + monk 0 = 3?

The prerequisite for Tashalatora is Monastic Training, one of the few feats to have a class level requirement..

Is that in the Errata? Because I can't find it in my EBCS.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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RelentlessImp

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Re: Claws of the Beast vs. Tashalatora?
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2011, 11:18:36 AM »
I don't get why you need the monk dip for Tashalatora.
It says you monk and manifester class stack, so you could be ardent 3 + monk 0 = 3?

The prerequisite for Tashalatora is Monastic Training, one of the few feats to have a class level requirement..

Is that in the Errata? Because I can't find it in my EBCS.

No, but it's a toss-up; 1 level of Monk to get it as a bonus feat rather than wasting an actual feat slot on it, or having one less feat for your entire career.
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Rebel7284

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Re: Claws of the Beast vs. Tashalatora?
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2011, 11:29:47 AM »
You know, you CAN combine monk's bonus to AC with Inertial Armor.  Don't see why a monk dip frees up that power.
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Claws of the Beast vs. Tashalatora?
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2011, 11:51:22 AM »
Let's see. Manifest Claws of the Beast using 19pp for 5d6 damage, take Rapid Strike, manifest Inertial Armor.
Benefit: You can make three 5d6 attacks per round with some extra AC.

vs

Dip Monk, spend a feat slot on Tashalatora instead of Rapid Strike.
Benefit: Well you gain a... Pathfinder? You mean Greater Furry & 20 BAB? IE six attacks per round?
Are you aiming to stack clear up? 1d10 turns to 2d8, Monk caps at 2d10 so adding Eberron's Augment Crystal means 5d8 damage right?
Are we talking about factoring bonus damage too? I mean, graft on some Stone Spikes and suddenly we're talking +6d4 damage for 4,000gp.
Simple fact, Tashalatora deals more damage, has better AC, and probably has a bit better boost in skills.
It does cost a manifester level though...
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Claws of the Beast vs. Tashalatora?
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2011, 05:26:29 PM »
You can do both. Use your feet for flurries and hands for claws.

Just worship an elder evil (Pandorym is great, and if your 'worship' is designed to keep it locked away, then you don't even have to be evil and/or insane), and swap the bonus feats out for the ones you want.
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skydragonknight

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Re: Claws of the Beast vs. Tashalatora?
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2011, 09:04:23 PM »
I don't get why you need the monk dip for Tashalatora.
It says you monk and manifester class stack, so you could be ardent 3 + monk 0 = 3?

The prerequisite for Tashalatora is Monastic Training, one of the few feats to have a class level requirement..

Is that in the Errata? Because I can't find it in my EBCS.

No, but it's a toss-up; 1 level of Monk to get it as a bonus feat rather than wasting an actual feat slot on it, or having one less feat for your entire career.

Oh, right. ECS lifted the class level requirement. Carry on.
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TheAbyssDragon

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Re: Claws of the Beast vs. Tashalatora?
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2011, 11:27:37 PM »
You can do both. Use your feet for flurries and hands for claws.

This is the route I took when I asked a similar question a few weeks ago. At the level I am now (4th) I typically stick to my claws, since I can get two attacks at full BAB instead of two at BAB-2, and the damage is similar. But if I really need to unleash, I tap law devotion and do flurry followed by the claws as secondary natural attacks. That's BAB-2/-2/-7/-7 plus relevant bonuses (+3 from law devotion, decent strength, buffs, etc).

Eventually I'll have 4 iterative attacks, +2 from flurry, +2 claw attacks, then improved rapid strike and haste/speed, all combined with stacked size increases. I'm pretty happy with it.

Phoenix00

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Re: Claws of the Beast vs. Tashalatora?
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2011, 03:42:28 PM »
You can do both. Use your feet for flurries and hands for claws.

Not trying to disrupte the psion master on his native home plane, but the SRD version of Claws of the Beast says you can't do that.

Quote
You can call or dismiss the claws as a swift action during the duration of the power. You can still hold and manipulate items with your claws or cast spells just as well as you could with your hands.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/clawsoftheBeast.htm

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Claws of the Beast vs. Tashalatora?
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2011, 08:07:34 PM »
You can do both. Use your feet for flurries and hands for claws.

Not trying to disrupte the psion master on his native home plane, but the SRD version of Claws of the Beast says you can't do that.

Quote
You can call or dismiss the claws as a swift action during the duration of the power. You can still hold and manipulate items with your claws or cast spells just as well as you could with your hands.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/clawsoftheBeast.htm
That's why you attack with the claws first. You haven't attacked with anything else during the round, so it's okay. It doesn't bar you from making additional attacks afterwards, however.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
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Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

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Re: Claws of the Beast vs. Tashalatora?
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2011, 08:37:51 PM »
You can do both. Use your feet for flurries and hands for claws.

Not trying to disrupte the psion master on his native home plane, but the SRD version of Claws of the Beast says you can't do that.

Quote
You can call or dismiss the claws as a swift action during the duration of the power. You can still hold and manipulate items with your claws or cast spells just as well as you could with your hands.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/clawsoftheBeast.htm
That's why you attack with the claws first. You haven't attacked with anything else during the round, so it's okay. It doesn't bar you from making additional attacks afterwards, however.
I bet your last date smacked you after you said something like that.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

TheAbyssDragon

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Re: Claws of the Beast vs. Tashalatora?
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2011, 01:15:08 PM »
That's why you attack with the claws first. You haven't attacked with anything else during the round, so it's okay. It doesn't bar you from making additional attacks afterwards, however.

I wasn't previously aware of this limitation. Does that method require you to use TWF or similar?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 12:54:06 AM by TheAbyssDragon »

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Claws of the Beast vs. Tashalatora?
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2011, 03:55:18 PM »
I wasn't previously aware of this limitation. Does that method require you to use TWF or similar?
You cannot make a claw attack using a hand that's currently wielding a weapon unless you drop the weapon first (this includes using Quick Draw). Either use weapons that you don't hold in your hands (such as braid blades, bite attacks, or using kicks as your unarmed strikes), or find a way to grab more than 2 hands.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

awaken DM golem

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Re: Claws of the Beast vs. Tashalatora?
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2011, 04:54:23 PM »
Carnivore came down squarely on the side of Psion for a Tash Monk build.
Certainly that is true for getting to 4th level powers and beyond.


But it seems to me now, that it's a wash if that isn't the concept,
before about 10th level, or 12th at the latest.
If the game is early levels to say around 8th,
I'm not sure what the best route for a Tash build.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Claws of the Beast vs. Tashalatora?
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2011, 12:37:03 AM »
I'm wondering.

If that is an exact quote, or one I just made up. What? If I'm using it first thus bypassing this little clause the past tense would support me. :)

Anyway.
Quote from: MM, page 300
A creature usually uses its manufactured weapon as its primary attack (and receives multiple attacks with that weapon, it its base attack is +6 or higher), and uses its natural weapons as secondary attacks (-5 penalty on attack rolls, and 1/2 strength bonus on damage rolls).
The parentheses notes the inclusion of additional attacks via BAB is linked to primary attacks further enforced by TWF (which cannot be done with natural weapons) is considered primary attack. Even attacking with the claws first, you become limited to a single attack (or two if TWF).

So assuming you've been mentally adding "ed" and ignoring the what-ifs, at most you gain two attacks but have to tackle the no hand problem. I for one would rather use Furry of Blows (+2), Snap Kick (+1), on top of normal BAB granted attacks (+1~+4) of the Monk dip over the max 3 claws and some light weapon tied to my hair from a dragon magazine. Of course as I noted, you trade off a level of manifesting for the clearly better melee prowess. And so, CotB/Tashalatora is dependent on the role you wish to play (able combatant or sidelines manifester with a back up plan).

Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Azoriel

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Re: Claws of the Beast vs. Tashalatora?
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2011, 09:02:21 PM »
Not sure if this was already considered, but, if at all possible, I would suggest getting the best of both worlds by taking the "beast strike" feat.

Beast Strike [General, Fighter]
(Dragon #355 p76)
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Base Attack Bonus +5, Claw or Slam attack
Description: When making an Unarmed Strike or Grapple check to deal damage, add your Claw or Slam damage.

TheAbyssDragon

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Re: Claws of the Beast vs. Tashalatora?
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2011, 01:00:32 AM »
I'm wondering.

If that is an exact quote, or one I just made up. What? If I'm using it first thus bypassing this little clause the past tense would support me. :)

Anyway.
Quote from: MM, page 300
A creature usually uses its manufactured weapon as its primary attack (and receives multiple attacks with that weapon, it its base attack is +6 or higher), and uses its natural weapons as secondary attacks (-5 penalty on attack rolls, and 1/2 strength bonus on damage rolls).
The parentheses notes the inclusion of additional attacks via BAB is linked to primary attacks further enforced by TWF (which cannot be done with natural weapons) is considered primary attack. Even attacking with the claws first, you become limited to a single attack (or two if TWF).

So assuming you've been mentally adding "ed" and ignoring the what-ifs, at most you gain two attacks but have to tackle the no hand problem. I for one would rather use Furry of Blows (+2), Snap Kick (+1), on top of normal BAB granted attacks (+1~+4) of the Monk dip over the max 3 claws and some light weapon tied to my hair from a dragon magazine. Of course as I noted, you trade off a level of manifesting for the clearly better melee prowess. And so, CotB/Tashalatora is dependent on the role you wish to play (able combatant or sidelines manifester with a back up plan).

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a

The above link points out two possibilities: (1), follow up your unarmed strikes with secondary natural attacks, as I've been mistakenly doing; or (2), TWF with your unarmed strikes and your natural attacks.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Claws of the Beast vs. Tashalatora?
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2011, 12:24:11 PM »
I arrived at almost the same conclusion as WotC, only missed that as an offhand attack, the one unarmed (manufactured) attack is still considered TWFing. And thus imposes the TWF penalty on all your attacks (-4 without feat).
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]