Author Topic: Finishing touches to a Save or Suck wizard build.  (Read 7365 times)

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Bard

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Finishing touches to a Save or Suck wizard build.
« on: May 12, 2011, 04:25:36 AM »
Ok I need a bit of help to fix the last touches of the build of the mage I'm gonna start playing in a couple of weeks, any general advice on how to make it better is welcome, the main issue I feel the build has is a "slow" and "bumpy" progression of bonuses to Spell DC in the 4-6 level range. And 2 empty feats that I'd like to fill with something useful.

Race: Silverbrow Human (extra feat and dragonblood subtype for Draconic Aura)
Alignment: Neutral or Chaotic Good (so no evil stuff)
Flaws: Noncombatant [UA], Vulnerable [UA]
   Class                             CL        Spell DC     Class Feat                                                          Feat   
1   Wizard            1      2     Scribe Scroll, Immediate Magic                                  Eschew Materials, Snowcasting, Draconic Aura (Energy, Cold), Spellcasting Prodigy   
2   Wizard            2               
3   Wizard            3      3                                                                                  Cold Focus   
4   Wizard            4               
5   Wizard            5           Spontaneous Divination      
6   Human Paragon          5           Adaptive Skill                                                           (Any metamagic or item creation feat)   
7   Human Paragon         6      4     Bonus Feat: Craft Wondrous Item      
8   Human Paragon         7      5     +2 INT      
9   Academy Sorceror      8      6     Arcane Thesis: Cryomancy                                   Spell Focus (Conjuration)   
10   Academy Sorceror      9               
11   Academy Sorceror      10           Bonus Metamagic: Heighten Spell      
12   Academy Sorceror      11      8     Arcane Thesis: Cryomancy                                   Skill Focus (Spellcraft)   
13   Archmage            12           Mastery of Shaping      
14   Archmage            13      9     Mastery of Reach   
15   Academy Sorceror      14                                                                                         Greater Cold Focus   
16   Academy Sorceror      15           Bonus Metamagic: Invisible Spell      
17   Academy Sorceror      16      10     Arcane Thesis: Cryomancy      
18   Academy Sorceror      17                                                                                      (Some other feat)
19   Academy Sorceror      18            Bonus Metamagic: Chain Spell                             
20   Academy Sorceror      19      12      Arcane Thesis: Cryomancy   

Notes:
* Spellcasting Prodigy is the version from Dragonlance: Age of Mortals that also adds to Spell DC
* Academy Sorceror is also from Age of Mortals, I qualify for it with Spontaneous Divinations (requires among other things "being able to cast 2nd level arcane spells without preparing them").
* Icemail Armor ( http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20030323a ) gives another +2 DC to Cold Spells
* Cold Focus has been ruled to count as a Spell Focus (school) feat for the purpose of qualifyng for Archmage.

Books:
All books except Tome of Battle and anything Psionic (DM still hasn't read 'em, so for now they're out, they will probabily be inserted in the game later on, but I'd like to do something that doesn't count on that)
All setting books included.
All WoTC articles on the website.
Dragon Magazine needs permission.

The Rest of the Party: (not sure it's relevant, but here it goes)
* Cloistered Cleric, an healbot (Radiant Servant of Pelor + Spontaneous Domain Casting (Healing), possibly Persisted Lesser Mass Vigor, no other info for now)
* "Divine" Archer (Cleric or Archivist, DMM:Persist or "Divine" Anima Mage or some other way to persist stuff)
* Rogue (not much info on this one yet, should be a random skillmonkey with some backstabbing optimization)
* Unoptimized Fighter ( O_o yes, seriously )
* Possible sixth member with a Wildshape-focused Druid or a Blasting "Cheap Metamagic" "Magic Missile" Sorcerer 
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

ILM

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Re: Finishing touches to a Save or Suck wizard build.
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2011, 05:51:27 AM »
Quote
Spellcasting Prodigy is the version from Dragonlance: Age of Mortals that also adds to Spell DC
Iffy, since it has been reprinted (multiple times, if I'm not mistaken) since, specifically excluding spell DCs.

Quote
Arcane Thesis: Cryomancy
You've got that four times, what does it stand for? There's no Cryomancy spell that I can find and you couldn't stack that feat anyway - should we assume you just mean [insert spiffy cold spell here]?

You should really take the Piercing Cold feat in FB to handle all the resistant/immune creatures. Maybe Energy Substitution [cold] if you can find non-cold elemental spells that you like?

What's the final, highest DC you get to with that build?

spacemonkey555

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Re: Finishing touches to a Save or Suck wizard build.
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2011, 11:18:26 AM »
Quote
Arcane Thesis: Cryomancy
You've got that four times, what does it stand for? There's no Cryomancy spell that I can find and you couldn't stack that feat anyway - should we assume you just mean [insert spiffy cold spell here]?

prestige class feature, +2 saves, +1 dc, +1 vs sr per rank for cold/ice spells, stacks. The save bonus is competence, and the dc/sr is unnamed

Bard

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Re: Finishing touches to a Save or Suck wizard build.
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2011, 11:33:38 AM »
Quote
Spellcasting Prodigy is the version from Dragonlance: Age of Mortals that also adds to Spell DC
Iffy, since it has been reprinted (multiple times, if I'm not mistaken) since, specifically excluding spell DCs.
I fully agree with you, it's been printed like a 5-6 times, at least other two only in the Dragonlance Settings books from Sovreign Press, and that is the only version that does Spell DC. Hell, I ususally don't even allow non-wotc book! But I've been suggested that version of the feat by the DM.

Also sorry I wasn't more clear about Arcane Thesis class feature, it does indeed have a confusing name.
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

ILM

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Re: Finishing touches to a Save or Suck wizard build.
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2011, 02:08:17 PM »
Also sorry I wasn't more clear about Arcane Thesis class feature, it does indeed have a confusing name.
My bad, should've checked the class first. +4 DC, wow. That's what the Elemental Savant should have been. :banghead

Oh by the way: one level of Paragnostic Apostle (CC) nets you another +1 to the DC of spells with a specific energy type. It requires no feat to enter and in spite of its name seems open to arcane casters. One fluff requirement though, not sure how your DM rules those.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2011, 02:44:58 PM by ILM »

Bard

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Re: Finishing touches to a Save or Suck wizard build.
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2011, 03:11:23 PM »
Oh by the way: one level of Paragnostic Apostle (CC) nets you another +1 to the DC of spells with a specific energy type. It requires no feat to enter and in spite of its name seems open to arcane casters. One fluff requirement though, not sure how your DM rules those.
Unluckily while it doesn't have prereq feats or anything, the increase it offers to energy type spells is of Caster Level, not Save DC :(
(or at least if there's something else, I'm missing it)
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

ILM

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Re: Finishing touches to a Save or Suck wizard build.
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2011, 03:49:48 PM »
Oh by the way: one level of Paragnostic Apostle (CC) nets you another +1 to the DC of spells with a specific energy type. It requires no feat to enter and in spite of its name seems open to arcane casters. One fluff requirement though, not sure how your DM rules those.
Unluckily while it doesn't have prereq feats or anything, the increase it offers to energy type spells is of Caster Level, not Save DC :(
(or at least if there's something else, I'm missing it)
Don't worry, that's just cause I'm illiterate. :(

kremti

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Re: Finishing touches to a Save or Suck wizard build.
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2011, 04:46:28 PM »
What's the purpose of Human Paragon there?  I can't quite see why it's there for...isn't it better with something like Master Specialist or Fatespinner or something?

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Re: Finishing touches to a Save or Suck wizard build.
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2011, 04:46:40 PM »
The caster level loss from Human Paragon is not worth it. You are a wizard, casting is what you do!

Move the Academy Sorcerer class forward, and finish off with Archmage or Fatespinner.

Bard

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Re: Finishing touches to a Save or Suck wizard build.
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2011, 06:10:11 PM »
Yeah caster level loss stings but I didn't find any better idea really... I tought about it a lot and my conclusion is somewhat along the lines of ...

Human Paragon is there because it doesn't have any prereq, helps with skills, both with the skill per level and with the +2 int. And don't forget a bonus feat! that sure helps considering between Academy Sorceror and Archmage I need 5 feats, 4 of which are more or less wasted (at least in the sense they don't help with DC)
The Int bonus also gives out some bonus spells and increases the DC of all spells (that added to the +1 DC I'd lose going 4 lvl fatespinner sums to a +2 on all spells) that somewhat make losing a caster level sting less.
Fatespinner requires all 4 levels to be any kind of useful (+4 DC to one spell 1/day for 3 levels isn't what I'd think like a fair trade), and the 4th level makes you lose a caster level anyway... and being 4 levels I'd lose one level of Academy Sorceror, losing a +1 DC on ALL spells.
Going with more levels of Archmage wouldn't really give me anything I really need, much less more DC to spells that's the main target of the build.
Elemental Savant would require a feat and gives a +1 DC only at lvl 5 and 10, so it's no use either (also caster level loss)

Now... I might be wrong, but it sorta makes sense to me trading 1 caster level for +2 Int and a Bonus feat (and just to add up, average THREE more hp! Another class skill of my choice that I probabily won't need! 18 more skill points and bragging rights for being a HUMAN PARAGON)
Somehow I don't think I'd find anywhere a class that gives +1 DC and other useful stuff in 3 levels with no prereq and without even losing a caster level :\
But yeah, losing a caster level sucks because of the delayed spell progression, especially because I will probabily spend most of my levels after 10 or so, behind the party by a level because of the crafting...

I may sound also a bit too fixated on increasing the DC, but even with this build considering my past experiences with more or less the same group and master we'll end up facing in the higher levels a lot of monster that have all good saves and that are of a CR way higher than the intended one being a med-high op party. Even like that by looking at the MMs I figure I'd have at best a 50% chance of a spell working.
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

Tshern

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Re: Finishing touches to a Save or Suck wizard build.
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2011, 06:15:20 PM »
Switch it for three levels of Incantatrix.

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ILM

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Re: Finishing touches to a Save or Suck wizard build.
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2011, 07:05:11 PM »
Well, if your DM's crazy enough to allow it, there's always the Unseelie Fey template from Dragon Compendium. You would actually want to go Sorc for Cha synergy, and getting within 5 ft of your opponent (and surviving) might be a challenge in itself, but that morale penalty to saves is effectively a massive bonus to your DCs.

As for Human Paragon, I think you're hitting diminishing returns here. That extra +1 DC (well, Int) isn't worth 3 levels where you could get some more useful and/or flavorful abilities.

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Re: Finishing touches to a Save or Suck wizard build.
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2011, 07:10:23 PM »
Fatespinner does not loose a caster level before level 5, which no one takes before epic levels anyway.

Also, yeah, you are overly focused on DCs. Only a few spells are completely negated if the saving throw are made, and such spells are usually optimized to a rediciolous degree if employed, or dropped completely. If you made a poll, you would discover that enchantment and evocation, the two easiest negated schools of magic, are amongst peoples favorite forbidden schools.

The only acceptable wizard class that loose a caster level are the Malconvoker, and that is Only because it fills a narrow nieche. Go with Fatespinner 4 or Incantatrix 3 before the Academy Sorcerer levels.

Also, you are aware that a wizard can never actually qualify for the Academy Sorcerer PrC, right?

Is this character for a dragonlance game? If so, there is much more wizardy cheese to be had in the shape of the Wizard of High Sorcery PrC from Towers of High Sorcery, and far more fluffy too! That class enable you to be an elven generalist as well as a specialist wizard. I love that trick.

Bard

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Re: Finishing touches to a Save or Suck wizard build.
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2011, 08:19:29 PM »
Fatespinner does not loose a caster level before level 5, which no one takes before epic levels anyway.
3 class levels for a +3 DC once a day? :\

Quote
Also, yeah, you are overly focused on DCs. Only a few spells are completely negated if the saving throw are made, and such spells are usually optimized to a rediciolous degree if employed, or dropped completely.
I usually avoid them, I think that even direct damage is better than a spell that can fail (and usually does), but I used to love them in 3.0 and I really do miss them, so I wanted to try and optimize something so that when I point my Finger of Death to someone or something, they actually DIE. And often. Not look at me laughing the next turn after taking an insignificant amount of damage, way less than a lvl 1 magic missile cast by our Sorceror.
And yes I know that a lot of spells have *save* Partial, and some of them are actually almost better if they fail, I just wanted to use for once all the other ones :D No matter if it's not the best of optimization, it's still a wizard :P

Quote
If you made a poll, you would discover that enchantment and evocation, the two easiest negated schools of magic, are amongst peoples favorite forbidden schools.
Enchantment and Evocation are usually my dropped schools too (except a blaster wizzie I played once I guess) even if atm I'm thinking of keeping Enchantment, but I wouldn't know what to drop...

Quote
Also, you are aware that a wizard can never actually qualify for the Academy Sorcerer PrC, right?
Actually a wizard can.
From the Wizard ACF Spontaneous Divination (Complete Champion): " You can spontaneously cast any spell of the divination school by sacri?cing a prepared spell of equal or greater level."
The main issue there is the fluff, but we're not even playing Dragonlance, all PrC from other settings just get re-fluffed by the DM if he thinks they can fit in our setting.

Quote
Is this character for a dragonlance game? If so, there is much more wizardy cheese to be had in the shape of the Wizard of High Sorcery PrC from Towers of High Sorcery, and far more fluffy too! That class enable you to be an elven generalist as well as a specialist wizard. I love that trick.
No it's not from a dragonlance game, but we can get PrC from all settings as long as the DM deems them "re-fluff-able", but I'm interested in this cheesiness! :love Please do explain!

Also, the Incantatrix is indeed a nice idea, I totally and utterly forgot the nice and cheesy feature she gets at level 3! Let me se what I can do with it!
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

ILM

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Re: Finishing touches to a Save or Suck wizard build.
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2011, 06:18:18 AM »
Quote
Also, you are aware that a wizard can never actually qualify for the Academy Sorcerer PrC, right?
Actually a wizard can.
From the Wizard ACF Spontaneous Divination (Complete Champion): " You can spontaneously cast any spell of the divination school by sacrificing a prepared spell of equal or greater level."
It's a really nice trick too by the way, I'll remember this one. :clap

CantripN

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Re: Finishing touches to a Save or Suck wizard build.
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2011, 06:51:23 AM »
For those feats, consider Reserves of Strength / Elder Giant Magic for 18, and Grell Alchemy for 5. Grell Alchemy grants +2 to passing SR and some other minor stuff, and is an Item Creation Feat, too.
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Re: Finishing touches to a Save or Suck wizard build.
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2011, 08:23:21 AM »
Fatespinner does not loose a caster level before level 5, which no one takes before epic levels anyway.
3 class levels for a +3 DC once a day? :\

Uhm.. No? That ability would be Spin Fate (Ex), and while that is a nice ability, it is far from the only reason why you should choose Fatespinner.

Fickle Finger of Fate (2nd level) enables you to force another creature to reroll a roll it has just made. Did a friend of yours just fail his save vs. an opposing Finger of Death? Or did the enemy just save vs. one of your spells? Roll again!

Resist Fate (4th level) is more of the same, but now you can reroll rolls made for yourself.

Rerolls are absolutely golden, and with Fatespinner you get them virtually for free.

Also, yeah, you are overly focused on DCs. Only a few spells are completely negated if the saving throw are made, and such spells are usually optimized to a rediciolous degree if employed, or dropped completely.
I usually avoid them, I think that even direct damage is better than a spell that can fail (and usually does), but I used to love them in 3.0 and I really do miss them, so I wanted to try and optimize something so that when I point my Finger of Death to someone or something, they actually DIE. And often. Not look at me laughing the next turn after taking an insignificant amount of damage, way less than a lvl 1 magic missile cast by our Sorceror.

And yes I know that a lot of spells have *save* Partial, and some of them are actually almost better if they fail, I just wanted to use for once all the other ones :D No matter if it's not the best of optimization, it's still a wizard :P

Finger of Death kills, absolutely! But not so much against a cleric as against a rogue. As a save-or-croak wizard, you should have spells capable of targeting different saves rather than just bumping the DCs of a single spell or school to a degree where it penetrates even strong saves. Enchanters are an exception to this rule, as enchantments can only ever target will.

Variety is the spice of life, and you are a wizard! Embrace your superiority and get different spells for different situations, because you CAN.

If you made a poll, you would discover that enchantment and evocation, the two easiest negated schools of magic, are amongst peoples favorite forbidden schools.
Enchantment and Evocation are usually my dropped schools too (except a blaster wizzie I played once I guess) even if atm I'm thinking of keeping Enchantment, but I wouldn't know what to drop...

Enchantments are only ever useful of you build your character around them. Because you focus your powers around a school that can only ever target will, you have to choose feats, race and prestige classes that help you force your spells through even the strongest of will saves. And even then, you are still marginalized by everything that is immune to mind-affecting abilities, which is actually a lot at the later levels. Drop enchantment, and never look back.

Also, you are aware that a wizard can never actually qualify for the Academy Sorcerer PrC, right?
Actually a wizard can.
From the Wizard ACF Spontaneous Divination (Complete Champion): " You can spontaneously cast any spell of the divination school by sacri?cing a prepared spell of equal or greater level."
The main issue there is the fluff, but we're not even playing Dragonlance, all PrC from other settings just get re-fluffed by the DM if he thinks they can fit in our setting.

As long as the RP prereq can be ignored, there is nothing stopping you from taking this class. The only problem I saw were that you, as a wizard, can never become a student of ambient magic in the world of DragonLance.

Is this character for a dragonlance game? If so, there is much more wizardy cheese to be had in the shape of the Wizard of High Sorcery PrC from Towers of High Sorcery, and far more fluffy too! That class enable you to be an elven generalist as well as a specialist wizard. I love that trick.
No it's not from a dragonlance game, but we can get PrC from all settings as long as the DM deems them "re-fluff-able", but I'm interested in this cheesiness! :love Please do explain!

You know the Elven Wizard substitution levels from RotW, right? The 1st and 2nd are GOLDEN, as they give you another spell/day of your highest level known and doubles the granted bonus you get from your familiar (Hummingbirds is the shit, though rats are also quite nice!). The price is that you trade away your ability to specialize in a school of magic.

Enter he Wizard of High Sorcery prestige class (from Towers of High Sorcery, not DLCS). One of its class features at level 1 is that non-specialist wizards become specialized in a school of magic associated with your alignment.

In other words, this combo enables you to have your cake and eat it too. Hell, you can even proceed to take levels in Master Specialist after a WoHS dip.

I recommend a (fire/silvanesti/grey/gold) elf Wizard 5/WoHS 4/Master Specialist 3/Fatespinner 4/Archmage 4 for maximum versatility and subtile cheesiness. Make sure to be neutral in order to qualify for the red robes, and thereby become a transmuter.

Also, the Incantatrix is indeed a nice idea, I totally and utterly forgot the nice and cheesy feature she gets at level 3! Let me se what I can do with it!

Incantatrix is probably the end-all wizard prestige class. All 10 levels are better than anything else you have to choose from, and it becomes even better in epic levels. If you qualify for incantatrix in the first place, take all the levels you can.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Finishing touches to a Save or Suck wizard build.
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2011, 08:55:12 AM »
You know the Elven Wizard substitution levels from RotW, right? The 1st and 2nd are GOLDEN, as they give you another spell/day of your highest level known and doubles the granted bonus you get from your familiar (Hummingbirds is the shit, though rats are also quite nice!).
Hummingbird doesn't get doubled.
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Re: Finishing touches to a Save or Suck wizard build.
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2011, 09:07:46 AM »
Damn! That would have been absolutely great. Never the less, the humble rat familiar is still a pretty good choice for an elven specialist.

KellKheraptis

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Re: Finishing touches to a Save or Suck wizard build.
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2011, 10:29:00 AM »
-snip-
The only acceptable wizard class that loose a caster level are the Malconvoker, and that is Only because it fills a narrow nieche.-snip-

War Weaver would like to have a word with you.  As for insane DC's, Incantatrix with Unresistable Spell (post errata) nets a free +10 DC.  If you ignore the non-official errata, take the feat, mitigate it's use, and then focus on something else, as all those spells you're optimizing the DC on now don't allow a save.  Save or Suck/Lose/Die just became Sucking, Lost, and Dead for the enemy :)
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