Author Topic: Sword & Board Fighter, Heal-Bot Cleric, Blaster Wizard, Sneak Thief.  (Read 10334 times)

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SeekingKnight

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Hello all BG Boarders.  I am wondering when the above died out as a reasonable way to play D&D?  I am first off not saying that the above is the best way to play or the worst.  I am just wondering this as my D&D group seems to believe that this is the best way to design a group.  I believe in 2nd edition had this is a decent group set up but was it always the case?  Thanks in advance for any and all input.

oslecamo

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Well as far as I know it was that way in 1e and 2e, but 3e introduced a series of key changes:

1-Much higher HP. Before you only had your HD for HP, you didn't add your Con or anything. And you and the monsters also got fewer HD. So stabbing and blasting was much more effecient.

2-Blastings physics. Back in 2e and 1e you could do stuff like bounce lighting bolts in a wall to hit an oponent multiple times, or a fireball in a cramped closed space would deal extra damage due to the higher pressure. Combining with the reduced HP, you can bet blasters rocked.

3-Two handed weapons king of damage. In 3.5 power attack adds 2 points of damage for each -1 penalty you take, so suddenly everybody is wielding them. Not to mention that before 3rd edition lighter weapons could attack more times per turn (dagger throwing was specially fast).

4-Clerics being able to convert prepared spells in cure spells. Before you only had the healing you had prepared at the start of the day. And the party would hate you if you found yourself with a character bleeding to death and the cleric hadn't prepared one more cure spell.

5-Exotic magic being safe. Back in 2e you had broken haste, but it would also literally take years of your life every time you used it.

And a lot of minor details. But yes a lot of stuff changed since the archetypes were first born.

Mind you, if all the players are in the same mentality, it's still a pretty nice way to make a group.

RobbyPants

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Oslecamo hit all the big ones.  It doesn't stop a lot of people from attempting to play 3E this way (especially if they played pre-3E), but if you mix play-styles, the problems become obvious quickly.

Another problem was in the 3E play-testing.  They didn't really test robustly, and they tested these types of archetypes, so no one ran a battle-field controller wizard and shifting, casting druid along side a S&B fighter and sneak rogue.
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Empirate

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I don't believe the four archetypes you listed have "died out as a reasonable way to play D&D". In fact, much of the game balance (as intended by the designers) sees these archetypes as the yardstick. CR is the most important issue here. We all know that a properly optimized party will often take out four equal level monsters (straight from the book) at once

SeekingKnight

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Good points all.  Maybe I was a bit too harsh in saying that these archetypes have fallen out of favor or are not effective.  In a group I use to play in they all followed these archetypes and it worked for them.  The best point is that once optimization (which can be fun) trickles in then the yard stick may be seen as short when say heal bot cleric runs into DMM cleric or a variant.

Thanks.

Bloody Initiate

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I don't think it's harsh to say it sucks. You need only make a S&B char to know they suck. They aren't even fun because they suck so much. Doing crap damage as the price for 2 or 3 AC is just horribly dissatisfying. Shields should have given a miss chance (Buckler 10%, Small shield 20%, Large shield 30%, Tower 50%) or something similarly absolute (You BLOCK with the shield), rather than just an addition. You can still cleave shields and stuff (They don't benefit from their own miss chance).

It's just that adding flatly to the AC doesn't speak to the mechanical combat difference between using a shield and not, and it's also less useful when all they did in core was cram bigger numbers up your ass. They saw a fighter could go +15 attack and might have an AC of 25 at X level, and then made equivalent-level monsters have AC of 30 and Attack bonuses of +20 (These aren't actual numbers, just examples of how they programmed the game so mundanes lose all dick-measuring contests).
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awaken DM golem

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S+B Fighter might not know their PC's concept, is completely unfinished and semi-unworkable.

Sneak Thief works, but without knowing CO-style tricks for combat, a casual player might be lost.

Heal-Bot Cleric is spending too much time helping the above.
Blaster Wizard doesn't care.
Both could be CO-ed well enough to stay in the concept's ballpark,
fix the one then two chumps, and still mop the floor with Orcus.


The fact that the average game group, knows this not at all ...
doesn't mean they can't feel the game design PULL them in that direction.

It is possible they won't feel it, and not miss it at all.
Kinda like the old Choose Your Own Adventure books, even more "un" -scripted.

bkdubs123

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I don't believe the four archetypes you listed have "died out as a reasonable way to play D&D". In fact, much of the game balance (as intended by the designers) sees these archetypes as the yardstick. CR is the most important issue here. We all know that a properly optimized party will often take out four equal level monsters (straight from the book) at once without breaking a sweat, where this was supposed to be a highly challenging fight.

While it's true that the game balance as intended by the designers reflects a party of S&B Fighter, Healer Cleric, Blaster Wizard, and Sneak Thief, the designers still messed it up. A party of those four character archetypes are still going to have trouble defeating their foes once we near 10th level and beyond that is may well be impossible for them. Unless by proper optimization you mean that Fighter is actually an uber-charger that happens to hold a shield (deals lots of damage on a charge albeit immensely lower than a Greatsword Barbarian), and the Wizard is some kind of dragonblooded Star Elf with practical metamagic + metamagic thesis + lots of metamagic rods who only uses Energy Admixtured Scorching Ray Wands all day. If you throw an average party of those four archetypes at 10th level against a pair of Vrocks or a single Bebilith they are going to struggle bitterly if they even survive.

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Empirate

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10th level may be the point in the game where a Sword&Board Fighter begins to feel useless... but isn't that also the point where the melee guy in a high-optimization game will feel his contribution recede? Let's face it: around the mid levels (say, 8th for a low, or 12th for a high end), the whole game balance begins to break down.

ninjarabbit

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Re: Sword & Board Fighter, Heal-Bot Cleric, Blaster Wizard, Sneak Thief.
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2011, 03:22:24 PM »
Heal bot clerics don't work in 3e because in-combat healing generally isn't effective, the cleric is better off casting buffs.

Speaking of buffing clerics the buffed cleric easily replaces the SnB fighter, as does a 3.5 druid.

LordBlades

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Re: Sword & Board Fighter, Heal-Bot Cleric, Blaster Wizard, Sneak Thief.
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2011, 11:13:11 AM »
Heal bot clerics don't work in 3e because in-combat healing generally isn't effective, the cleric is better off casting buffs.

Speaking of buffing clerics the buffed cleric easily replaces the SnB fighter, as does a 3.5 druid.


The issues with in-combat healing are many, bit it has mainly to do with how it scales compared to both PC and monster damage. Usually you're preventing more damage by hitting the monster and killing it faster than by healing the guy that just got hit.

veekie

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Re: Sword & Board Fighter, Heal-Bot Cleric, Blaster Wizard, Sneak Thief.
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2011, 11:38:59 AM »
Heal bot clerics don't work in 3e because in-combat healing generally isn't effective, the cleric is better off casting buffs.

Speaking of buffing clerics the buffed cleric easily replaces the SnB fighter, as does a 3.5 druid.


The issues with in-combat healing are many, bit it has mainly to do with how it scales compared to both PC and monster damage. Usually you're preventing more damage by hitting the monster and killing it faster than by healing the guy that just got hit.
More than that, if it was just that, you would still see combat healing(though not as a character mainstay).  All the Cures are melee touch. A monster just ginsued your presumably tanky guy to the point he needs a medic, you, by being in range to heal, are also going to bite an opportunity and then a full attack.
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RobbyPants

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Re: Sword & Board Fighter, Heal-Bot Cleric, Blaster Wizard, Sneak Thief.
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2011, 11:46:58 AM »
I always got the impression that the healbot cleric was a combination of an old way of approaching things and an after effect of blaster wizards, S&B fighters, and sneak thieves.

I think the more important part here is it's a sub-optimal response to sub-optimal tactics from the rest of the party.  If the party opens up by casting a solid crowd control spell, with the fighter running in to obliterate something with a THW charge and such, then the cleric might have more room to buff.  Alternately, if the cleric had a bit of foresight, he would have buffed right before the fight, so he wouldn't have to waste precious combat actions.  But instead, the wizard throws out a Fireball that hurts a bunch of monsters but leaves them standing, the fighter charges and hurts a monster (but leaves it standing), and the rogue does some piddly damage.  Then the monsters act and mess the PCs up.  Now, the cleric is wondering if the PCs can even survive a round without healing.

So, if the party opens up like the first half of the example, the cleric just doesn't have the need to heal in combat.  Or if he does, one of the players is likely to say something OOC.
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Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
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I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
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Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
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Steve: ****
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When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
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Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
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veekie

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Re: Sword & Board Fighter, Heal-Bot Cleric, Blaster Wizard, Sneak Thief.
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2011, 08:36:25 PM »
But even in that premise combat healing isn't going to work.

Multiple PCs got wrecked.
Your healer just waded into the mess and is going to get wrecked next too.
You can only heal one guy, at melee range until high levels(unless you're Pathfinder, then you can heal your whole party in exchange for undoing most of what the fireball did to the monsters).
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

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I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
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Re: Sword & Board Fighter, Heal-Bot Cleric, Blaster Wizard, Sneak Thief.
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2011, 11:39:44 PM »
In-combat healing CAN work if you have an optimized caster tweaked for the job (War Weaver w/ Sanctum Heal, etc etc). Although, that's not for lower levels play, and certainly not a Cleric build.

Iconic roles used poorly (as in, not properly tweaked) will suck at their intended job anyway. :/
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Re: Sword & Board Fighter, Heal-Bot Cleric, Blaster Wizard, Sneak Thief.
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2011, 04:59:31 AM »
They can keep up with equal EL encounters. I'm not sure how well they deal with boss type encounters

A cleric can keep up with a monsters DPR, even at low levels, to some degree. Say giving an fighter another  round or two vs an elemental, or completely undoing an ogres damage.



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Re: Sword & Board Fighter, Heal-Bot Cleric, Blaster Wizard, Sneak Thief.
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2011, 05:59:43 AM »
They can keep up with equal EL encounters. I'm not sure how well they deal with boss type encounters

A cleric can keep up with a monsters DPR, even at low levels, to some degree. Say giving an fighter another  round or two vs an elemental, or completely undoing an ogres damage.
An ogre is doing 2d8+7 and is CR3. A 3rd level cleric is healing 1d8+3 from a 1st level slot or 2d8+3 from a 2nd level slot. On average he won't cure al of the Ogres damage plus he is using one of only 2 (or 3) of his highest level spells for this. And putting himself in harms way. A loosing proposition if you ask me.

He would be better of trying to kill it. That should be easily within reach for a melee oriented cleric, especially if the fighter has hit the ogre already.

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Re: Sword & Board Fighter, Heal-Bot Cleric, Blaster Wizard, Sneak Thief.
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2011, 06:18:04 AM »
Yeah, if he wasn't putting himself in harms way at least it would be a reasonable option(1 spell slot and a standard action for a 70% mitigation of an ogre's standard action and 60% chance to hit a fighter vs the cleric's own 50% chance of hitting and lower melee damage) to slow down the ogre. As it is, by simply casting the spell he gives the ogre a 60% chance to hit HIM from the AoO, followed by another chance to smash him, and he also used his standard action to get in there.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

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Re: Sword & Board Fighter, Heal-Bot Cleric, Blaster Wizard, Sneak Thief.
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2011, 06:52:16 AM »
Yeah, if he wasn't putting himself in harms way at least it would be a reasonable option(1 spell slot and a standard action for a 70% mitigation of an ogre's standard action and 60% chance to hit a fighter vs the cleric's own 50% chance of hitting and lower melee damage) to slow down the ogre. As it is, by simply casting the spell he gives the ogre a 60% chance to hit HIM from the AoO, followed by another chance to smash him, and he also used his standard action to get in there.
That AoO is by no means a certainty. If the cleric positions himself carefully the fighter will provide cover an thus deny the ogre an AoO.