Author Topic: A moral question  (Read 31763 times)

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Elennsar

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Re: A moral question
« Reply #60 on: September 21, 2008, 06:00:15 AM »
1) Well, if paladins are meaningless, I guess that explains why the class (seperate discussion, I know) sucks.

2) No, this is a "Let's actually do something to deal with Evil, so that it is gone." form of good.

Sure, one shouldn't kill simply because one suspects that someone "might do evil". One shouldn't say that someone is an Evil character if one doesn't intend them to be treated as someone who has done evil and will do evil again.

Such a person should be stopped...violently if necessarily...before they act again.


1) I don't know enough about Manson to say.
2) Guilty of betrayal (presumably), yes. Evil, no. Depends on if he was a spy/agent of the Romans or not.
3) This is controversal, regarding his guilt.

Now, if you gave me the chance to shoot Stalin or Hitler without that making for a greater evil (by someone else taking their place and making things worse), I'd shoot them faster than I can type this sentence and would be disgusted with anyone who wouldn't.

That is the kind of evil that is truly Evil alignment and not "evil tendancies (small E intentional)" Chaotic or Lawful  or True Neutral.

Our world is rarely that black and white, that's not the point.

Incidently: Two questions.

1) When are we considering modern art to start? That is, what is modern?

2) Was that a joke?
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EjoThims

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Re: A moral question
« Reply #61 on: September 21, 2008, 06:08:56 AM »
One shouldn't say that someone is an Evil character if one doesn't intend them to be treated as someone who has done evil and will do evil again.

But evil comes in all forms, and as stated, does not have to involve the big 3. Not all evils are worthy of death.

Now, if you gave me the chance to shoot Stalin or Hitler without that making for a greater evil (by someone else taking their place and making things worse), I'd shoot them faster than I can type this sentence and would be disgusted with anyone who wouldn't.

One they've started their actions, once that evil is about to occur, fine. But if you try to tell me shooting a baby that hasn't ever yet taken an evil act is a thing of good, then I have no doubt that you are the classic misguided good, doing evil acts not only under the guise of good, but actually mistakenly thinking that's what you are accomplishing.

Our world is rarely that black and white, that's not the point.

No, that IS the point. It's never that black and white period, only people that gain power by polarization and strife try to make it so, and those people are usually evil.

Elennsar

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Re: A moral question
« Reply #62 on: September 21, 2008, 06:11:25 AM »
1) Not all evils are worthy of Evil alignment, just as being a generous tipper doesn't make you Good.

2) If the baby is going to take an evil act, and it cannot be taught to be Good, then there is no purpose in letting it live. Now, certainly B (teach it to be Good) is preferable if possible, but it is not necessarily possible.

3) It is occasionally that black and white, though this is disputable, on our world. In a fantasy world, it can easily be usually that black and white.
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EjoThims

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Re: A moral question
« Reply #63 on: September 21, 2008, 06:20:01 AM »
1) Not all evils are worthy of Evil alignment, just as being a generous tipper doesn't make you Good.

No, but someone who does nothing in their life but small evils for the sole purpose of gaining pleasure through inconveniencing others is an evil person.

Just as someone who does nothing in their life but small acts of kindness for the sole purpose of seeing someone else smile is a good person, even if no one ever knows their name.

2) If the baby is going to take an evil act, and it cannot be taught to be Good, then there is no purpose in letting it live. Now, certainly B (teach it to be Good) is preferable if possible, but it is not necessarily possible.

Unless the child itself is committing evil acts, there is no non-evil justification for killing it until it reaches the age in which it begins to do the historically recorded atrocities.

3) It is occasionally that black and white, though this is disputable, on our world. In a fantasy world, it can easily be usually that black and white.

But it's not. Having the evil subtype is the best example of this, especially if you're also an outsider. Even magic will always detect you as being evil, regardless of any actions you have ever taken.

altpersona

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Re: A moral question
« Reply #64 on: September 21, 2008, 06:22:04 AM »
modern art a joke? yip.

unless you can sell it.. then its serious.

our world is in full color , unless your a dog.. then its black and white i guess...

the fantasy worlds we inhabit are rarely in color, unless the paid the extra in publishing..

in games we have the convenience of a plethora of evil gods. and god like beings.. this makes killing in the name of, easier..

i would go as far as to say, that killing being evil, and killers should be killed... the 'good guy' with the bloody spiked chain needs to make a sense motive roll.


argh, more posts while i was posting..

im going to bed soon..

babies are evil, older children in particular... every two year old ever is chaotic evil they will give you a hug and stab you in the back..

but we give them time to learn... but not the orcs how long do you give the orc to learn, do you take the time to teach it.. or do you mow it down.

i dont recall saying being a generous tipper made you good.. recall saying that evil will do any good to get what it wants..
i recall saying that making fun of and mildly torturing the disabled is evil..

but we can take it up a notch.. the mean and cruel are now safe since they are not evil enough.. i do however think dante placed them in an upper layer of hell..

now we move on to the thieves ... not the street urchin but real thieves.. they are doing harm cutting the farmers purse strings when he goes to buy his grain... lifting the platinum seal that binds the mummy.. kill em?

The goal of power is power. - idk
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Elennsar

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Re: A moral question
« Reply #65 on: September 21, 2008, 06:24:51 AM »
1) Not sufficiently so to be Good or Evil aligned, however.

Most Lawful Neutral cops are basically honest and doing their duty and being "good people" in that sense, but they're not the kind of Really Good that makes Lawful Good.

2) No, there is no justification for letting it live if it will commit those acts as soon as it is capable of them and it cannot be prevented from doing so. If it is inevitably evil, letting it live serves no purpose.

3) Since outsiders with the evil subtype INEVITABLY do evil acts and remain Evil aligned, this is not a problem. An Evil aligned outsider who wishes to avoid the subtype has to work to get rid of being evil first. The odds of it doing that? Minimal.

The point on being a generous tipper is that it is no more sufficient to be Good to tip generously than stealing pocket money is sufficient to be Evil. One may be part of the alignment or contrary to it, but they alone are not sizable enough acts.
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EjoThims

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Re: A moral question
« Reply #66 on: September 21, 2008, 06:30:53 AM »
1) Not sufficiently so to be Good or Evil aligned, however.

Most Lawful Neutral cops are basically honest and doing their duty and being "good people" in that sense, but they're not the kind of Really Good that makes Lawful Good.

Most people let minor evils slide. That's why they're neutral or CG, not because the good they do isn't good enough.

2) No, there is no justification for letting it live if it will commit those acts as soon as it is capable of them and it cannot be prevented from doing so. If it is inevitably evil, letting it live serves no purpose.

And you have no way of knowing if it's inevitably evil or not until it's about to commit those acts. You have just killed someone who has not yet done anything wrong.

This makes you evil.

3) Since outsiders with the evil subtype INEVITABLY do evil acts and remain Evil aligned, this is not a problem.

Not true. The subtype is part of their origin, but does not dictate their actions.

Elennsar

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Re: A moral question
« Reply #67 on: September 21, 2008, 06:35:24 AM »
1) Most people let minor evils slide and don't do great goods. That makes for neutral.

2) No, what would make me evil is letting it live when I know that it will do evil. An orc might be taught to be good, though it is doubtful enough to make letting an orc live a chancy possibility. A demon is evil to the core. A drow...good question. (It seems unlikely.) An evil dragon...most likely more like a demon.

D&D doesn't really address this, but "Always Evil" seems to indicate that its not an if, its a "when".

3) The beings with that subtype are very commonly if not always "Always Evil." Being of the subtype per se does not make them evil, but demons (for instance) are evil anyway.

Question regarding the original question: Other than "it says this in the MM!", did the character have any reason (valid or otherwise) to assume the kobold was evil?

I can and will justify killing someone because they're evil to rid the world of evil, but "Hey. It was evil. It deserved to die." isn't quite it. The goal of a believer in malicide is ridding the world of evil. If that does require killing, unsheath swords, nock arrows, and fight. That IF is the crucial point.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2008, 06:39:18 AM by Elennsar »
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altpersona

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Re: A moral question
« Reply #68 on: September 21, 2008, 06:44:08 AM »
enabling evil is evil...
not minding a little evil is neutral.. so long as some there is some good also.
good is a rare and precious thing...

2) im still siding with ejo... and the racism isnt helping..

3)cant be no good, coming from the wrong side of the tracks, is racism with out the race...
The goal of power is power. - idk
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Elennsar

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Re: A moral question
« Reply #69 on: September 21, 2008, 06:47:28 AM »
1) That second sentence ("Not minding a little evil is neutral...so long is there is some good also.") is what makes most people Neutral. Well put.

2) Racism? Orcs are stated as being "usually evil". Therefore, it is a safe assumption that many orcs (though not all) are evil. This isn't bias. This is a statement of the facts. Now, if in your setting, the MM standard is not used here, then well, it doesn't apply.

3) Er?
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EjoThims

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Re: A moral question
« Reply #70 on: September 21, 2008, 06:50:56 AM »
1) Most people let minor evils slide and don't do great goods. That makes for neutral.

Exactly. But not everyone does minor evils or even allows them. And no everyone does minor goods. Doing only small of each but not even small of the other still makes you either good or evil.

2) No, what would make me evil is letting it live when I know that it will do evil.

But you don't know that. You can't know that until it happens.

3) The beings with that subtype are very commonly if not always "Always Evil." Being of the subtype per se does not make them evil, but demons (for instance) are evil anyway.

Closed minded much? I know the whole 'redeemed villain' or 'outcast hero' is played out, but that doesn't mean it should be closed off as a possibility.

The goal of a believer in malicide is ridding the world of evil. If that does require killing, unsheath swords, nock arrows, and fight. That IF is the crucial point.

Doing evil to be rid of evil has been explored many times, even in DnD. Please refer to the Kingpriest of Istar. It never makes the world a better place and always leads to evil.

If for no other reason than that it removes choice. It removes will. It removes freedom and diversity. It is the thought police and Big Brother.

Besides... Evil can't be removed. It must exist in balance. Without evil there is no good. And without good, no evil. When 'all the evil in the world is exterminated,' it's because all the good has been lost too. Or even worse, as is the inevitable case in your own philosophy, it's because those that would think themselves good are truly the evil ones.

And Elennsar, it is racism. Even if the MM said 'most gnomes are dirty thieves,' it's still racist to think that any particular gnome you meet will be. Just like it's racist to think that any particular asian person is good at math or that any particular black person is good at basketball but not at hockey.

Elennsar

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Re: A moral question
« Reply #71 on: September 21, 2008, 07:04:46 AM »
1) Not enough so to truly justify the alignment, however. Never doing anything truly wrong and never doing anything truly good = TN.

2) If and I use IF intentionally I know that it would, it is going to die. If it is "probably" (70%+), it will probably die. If "possibly", its getting taught.

3) I'm not saying it is closed off. I'm stating that when it says "Always Evil.", then "well except for Bob" is out unless specifically stated. As a DM, one can (and one might argue should) say "usually".

4) The kingpriest is an example of an author trying to mix "corrupted by power" with the idea that good ought to be ashamed of wanting to get rid of evil. If he -was- Lawful Good, then he -does- have the right to insist that those who are not (small g) good convert or die.

Note: Malicide is not about "doing evil to get rid of evil'. Its about getting rid of evil and in disagreement with the idea that killing itself is an evil act. "The ends justify the means" is an entirely seperate philosophy.

If evil is removed, that is a good thing. It removes a blight upon the world that should never have been and only exists because of the imperfect state of creation.

The idea that "evil and good need each other to exist" is based on something akin to the idea that somehow, it would be less virtuous to save someone's life if everyone who saw someone in need of rescuing would be willing to do so. This makes no sense.

As to the MM, orcs, and racism...

It says "usually evil". Not "believed to be usually evil" or anything indicating that you are likely to run into an orc who isn't...such orcs exist, but are uncommon at best. Many or even most orcs are evil. (Unfortunately, "usually" as I recall is not given a percentage definition. Its the step down from "Always" and above "sometimes" or whatever the phrase is, if this is used.) Thus, assuming an orc will be evil is racist in the same sense assuming a 'white' person have fair skin is.

When something is true 80% of the time, expecting that a person or being or thing from that group will be different is being...optimistic. Even 70% of the time it is fairly unlikely. At 60%, its not as likely, but its quite possible. At 90%, you're being really optimistic.
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EjoThims

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Re: A moral question
« Reply #72 on: September 21, 2008, 07:37:30 AM »
1) Not enough so to truly justify the alignment, however. Never doing anything truly wrong and never doing anything truly good = TN.

It's not wrong to intentionally and maliciously cause others stress and torment even if there's no lasting pain? It's not good to intentionally and directly bring happiness and relief to others even if there's no gain?

And even if that part was correct, your conclusion is not, as there are four other possibilities for neutral, and each aspects of neutrality in true neutral comes from being neutral on a different axis.

2) If and I use IF intentionally I know that it would, it is going to die. If it is "probably" (70%+), it will probably die. If "possibly", its getting taught.

How do you ever know? Even if you're precognitive or going off your knowledge of the future, your very presence has altered the future and pushed it into a state of flux.

3) I'm not saying it is closed off. I'm stating that when it says "Always Evil.", then "well except for Bob" is out unless specifically stated. As a DM, one can (and one might argue should) say "usually".

So you're saying that based on the norm for a group of people, following your philosophy would lead to the death of people who are potentially innocent, just because you don't know they're not?

4) The kingpriest is an example of an author trying to mix "corrupted by power" with the idea that good ought to be ashamed of wanting to get rid of evil. If he -was- Lawful Good, then he -does- have the right to insist that those who are not (small g) good convert or die.
Note: Malicide is not about "doing evil to get rid of evil'.

Unless you are misrepresenting it, yes, it is.

Its about getting rid of evil and in disagreement with the idea that killing itself is an evil act.

Killing is not evil by nature. But killing is not good, either. There is a middle ground, and it is possible to still be good even if you tread it now and then. Black and white do not exist.

If evil is removed, that is a good thing. It removes a blight upon the world that should never have been and only exists because of the imperfect state of creation.

No. If evil is actually removed instead of just moving, all you have left is stale neutrality. There is no more good if there is no evil. Everything on that axis just becomes 0.

The idea that "evil and good need each other to exist" is based on something akin to the idea that somehow, it would be less virtuous to save someone's life if everyone who saw someone in need of rescuing would be willing to do so. This makes no sense.

No, it's based on sense and a coldly calculating look at how we perceive the world. There's a reason so many people with no problems in their life end up depressed.

They also have nothing to look forward to, no matter what they are getting.

such orcs exist, but are uncommon at best. Many or even most orcs are evil.

And it's still racist to assume they fit that norm. It's called a prejudice for a reason. That reason is because you're pre-judging; before knowing what is actually there.

What's so wrong about judging people, no matter what they look like or how many arms they have, by their deeds and words instead of by how others that happen to look like them 'usually' act and speak?

Elennsar

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Re: A moral question
« Reply #73 on: September 21, 2008, 07:50:25 AM »
1) Its not wrong enough to be of Evil alignment. Sure, cheating at cards is bad. Cheating on with your friend's wife is bad. Does it make you a person who is Certain to Go to Hell? No.

2) I know because I have the intelligence to determine whether or not something is probably going to happen or not. I am probably going to live long enough to finish typing this post. I am probably not going to die at the hands of a tenacled monster. Someone from China is probably shorter than I am. I am probably not going to get married.

3) I am saying that "Always Evil" means just that. Now, if the DM wants to add "but that's really 99.99999~%", that's his call. Always however, as written, is 100%. There are no innocents.

4) Orcs are the evil ones because orcs do evil things. If both sides are doing exactly the same thing and orcs have innocent noncombatants as much as elves, then orcs aren't "the evil ones". If orcs are all monsters and all evil, then killing young orcs is good strategy.

As for "Follow me or die"...if he is Good, then those who are opposed to him are not. Not merely "those different"...but enemies of Good are not Good.

5) Black and white do exist, and I'm not arguing killing is good. I'm arguing that destroying evil is good and necessary and sometimes one has to kill to do so.

6) No, all you have is the absence of Evil. There is nothing less good about doing a good deed because there is no evil in the world.

7) No, it isn't. Killing is a method of getting rid of evil. If one can get rid of evil by redeeming all evil doers, then that's good (as in desirable). If one has to kill them to get rid of evil, then one kills them. IF.

Unless killing is inherently evil at all times and on all occasions, there's nothing about "necessary evil" there.

8) So, because there's no morally wrong people, there are no morally right people? Makes...no...sense. Morally right people are doing morally right things, morally wrong people are doing morally wrong things. Eliminating group B does not mean that group A suddenly has nothing to do.

9) What's so wrong about relying on "usually" to actually mean "usually"? I assume that I'm "usually" not going to get hit by a car crossing the street. I assume that I'm "usually" going to be healthy (in the sense of not being sick with a disease). I assume that "usually" the food I eat from a restraunt I like will taste good.

I assume that if orcs are "usually evil" that it is a reliable assumption that the orc I met is one of the evil ones. Are there exceptions? Yes. Exceptions to a reliably true rule.

It is pre-judging in the literal sense, but "You're being a racist!" is completely missing the point.
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EjoThims

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Re: A moral question
« Reply #74 on: September 21, 2008, 08:11:46 AM »
1) Its not wrong enough to be of Evil alignment. Sure, cheating at cards is bad. Cheating on with your friend's wife is bad. Does it make you a person who is Certain to Go to Hell? No.

One instance wouldn't be enough, of course not. But say you're the kind of douche who goes around starting relationships to intentionally cheat on and hurt the other, over and over again, gaining a sick pleasure from the tears of so many of the people who came to love you while you cared nothing for them?

2) I know because I have the intelligence to determine whether or not something is probably going to happen or not. I am probably going to live long enough to finish typing this post. I am probably not going to die at the hands of a tenacled monster. Someone from China is probably shorter than I am. I am probably not going to get married.

All guesses, no matter the odds that you end up right. Until it has actually happened, the possibility still exists. When you tie a price to this guess, it's known as a gamble.

So you believe it is right to gamble with the lives of others?

3) I am saying that "Always Evil" means just that. Now, if the DM wants to add "but that's really 99.99999~%", that's his call. Always however, as written, is 100%. There are no innocents.

Wrong. Even if you interpret always to be a fact instead of a generalization, everyone is still innocent until they actually commit the misdeed. Thinking about stealing doesn't make you a thief. Thinking about murder doesn't make you a killer.

4) Orcs are the evil ones because orcs do evil things. If both sides are doing exactly the same thing and orcs have innocent noncombatants as much as elves, then orcs aren't "the evil ones". If orcs are all monsters and all evil, then killing young orcs is good strategy.

See above. This is just patently and deliberately an evil ideal. It may be sound strategically in a war, but is not a good act. It's not even a neutral act. It is an act of evil.

As for "Follow me or die"...if he is Good, then those who are opposed to him are not.

What?! Are you serious?

You actually believe that kind of tripe? Oh gods... And I bet you think that Pro-Choice means Pro-Abortion too... Where'd I leave my wand of "Open Eyes, Greater"?

I'm arguing that destroying evil is good and necessary and sometimes one has to kill to do so.

What you just said is this:

"I'm not arguing that killing is good. But killing is good when you need to do it."

Understand, please... Killing not a good act. It is not inherently evil either, though. A good person can do neutral things and still be good, but just because he is good or working in the name of good does not mean that everything he does is good.

6) No, all you have is the absence of Evil. There is nothing less good about doing a good deed because there is no evil in the world.

And if you took out light, you'd have no shadow. If you took out sound, you'd have no echoes. If you took out food, you'd have no shit. Good and evil are as linked as all these.

Unless killing is inherently evil at all times and on all occasions, there's nothing about "necessary evil" there.

There's inherent evil in killing someone who has not yet done wrong, no matter what the odds that they will later. Killing in not inherently evil. Killing someone for something they may never do is.

8) So, because there's no morally wrong people, there are no morally right people? Makes...no...sense.

Of course it makes no sense, because morality is subjective, not objective. Morality is separate even from our concepts of good and evil (which are terribly misused - hint; evil is done intentionally to cause pain and/or invoke pleasure in the doer; good is done intentionally to invoke pleasure in the receiver), much less from planar alignment in the game.

9) What's so wrong about relying on "usually" to actually mean "usually"? I assume that I'm "usually" not going to get hit by a car crossing the street. I assume that I'm "usually" going to be healthy (in the sense of not being sick with a disease). I assume that "usually" the food I eat from a restraunt I like will taste good.

Nothing, as long as you never make the transition from 'usually' to 'it will happen this time.'

I assume that if orcs are "usually evil" that it is a reliable assumption that the orc I met is one of the evil ones.

And that's fine, if sad. But taking action based on that assumption is not.

It is pre-judging in the literal sense, but "You're being a racist!" is completely missing the point.

It's not though. You're saying it's okay to eradicate an entire race of people, including all the children that can't even crawl around based on what the full grown adults you've met 'usually' do.

That is evil, and that IS the point.

Elennsar

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Re: A moral question
« Reply #75 on: September 21, 2008, 08:36:00 AM »
1) I'd say that kind of person has crossed into the line of evil...up to and including the kill-if-necessary part.

Necessary being the big, underline, italicize, put in bold, word here. Ideally, you could make him reform and atone for his sins. Failing that, he should be prevented from doing any further harm. Failing that, killing him is a 100% reliable method of choice #2. That does not mean that one should leap to it right away, but nor should one rule it out.

2) I believe that its right (and rational, above and beyond being morally acceptable if not exactly praiseworthy) to assume that if I'm in a combat zone, and someone is "probably" going to shoot me, that I should shoot them.

Same principle in regards to any other assumptions of "probably" true.

3) I am serious. Those oppposed. Not "those who aren't the same as". Those who are opposed. Someone trying to overthrow him, for instance.

4) A demon is guilty from the moment is "born". Its very existance is a blight. An orc or chromatic dragon, probably (as I'm sure enough to argue this, but not sure enough to call it 100%) not. However, the odds that an orc or chromatic dragon will be a being which is safe to let live are not very high and that should be kept in mind when determing whether or not to kill it in the shell, so to speak, or not.

5) No. It is a perfectly legitimate act. If all orcs are evil, including orc young, then there is no reason to spare them.

6) No, I'm arguing that acting against evil is good, and sometimes part of that involves killing. I have no fondness for violence, just even less for people who think violence should always be considered a bad thing and particularly those who believe that it should be avoided at any costs.  I respect Ghandi for the strength of his convictions and his application of a strategy that would work with minimal bloodshed. I do not believe it was a strategy that is always the best or even always at all viable.

7) If the odds are very likely that they will, and they cannot be prevented, then they should be stopped before they have the opportunity. Saying "we won't shoot (or do anything to get rid of) someone until he has his hand on the trigger and his gun loaded and aimed at the president." is not a good idea. If you see someone with a gun looking at the president, and he's not one of the guys protecting said president, assuming he's an ally you don't know about is not recommended.

8) Oh great. Morality is subjective. Since there's no evidence one way or another on Earth...
 
Well, if its subjective, then the whole question of whether or not it is wrong for me to kill someone for being evil is totally irrelevant, because only subjectively is anything wrong. So what's the point? "I think it's evil, therefore it is!"...that's not the point, right?

9) Usually means "I can assume it will and act accordingly." It does not mean "I can assume it always will no matter what." but it does mean that I can rely on it being true and act accordingly.

10) What's "sad" is assuming that even though 85% of all orcs I meet are evil, that I have to wait for the orc to be about to do evil to do anything, and even then, I probably shouldn't, because it technically hasn't done anything yet. It's only "probably" going to do something bad. I trust that getting silly here is not the goal.

11) No, I'm saying that its okay, if all orcs are evil, to kill all orcs, if there's no way to redeem them. If only some (however high a percentage) of orcs are evil, kill those that are evil (again, if redemption is not an option).

Those who are not evil are left alone.

Now, if I'm not certain, then I should not go around killing all orcs I see, but if 85% of all orcs are evil, assuming that the orc/s I meet are in the 15% is a worse assumption than assuming that they're in the 85% who are.
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EjoThims

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Re: A moral question
« Reply #76 on: September 21, 2008, 09:05:30 AM »
1) I'd say that kind of person has crossed into the line of evil...up to and including the kill-if-necessary part.

Necessary being the big, underline, italicize, put in bold, word here. Ideally, you could make him reform and atone for his sins. Failing that, he should be prevented from doing any further harm. Failing that, killing him is a 100% reliable method of choice #2. That does not mean that one should leap to it right away, but nor should one rule it out.

So even though he did nothing against anyone's will, just maliciously lied repeatedly, you would have him killed if he did not stop?

2) I believe that its right (and rational, above and beyond being morally acceptable if not exactly praiseworthy) to assume that if I'm in a combat zone, and someone is "probably" going to shoot me, that I should shoot them.

Same principle in regards to any other assumptions of "probably" true.

Rational self defense is a different matter entirely, but it's not good either. It's just neutral. Saving yourself the only way you think will work. But intentionally killing someone who's not threatening you because they've probably done something in the past or likely will later is an evil thing.

3) I am serious. Those oppposed. Not "those who aren't the same as". Those who are opposed. Someone trying to overthrow him, for instance.

I am opposed to the ruthless slaughter of individual who have done no wrong. I am therefor needing to be killed?

4) A demon is guilty from the moment is "born".

Not if it hasn't committed an act of evil. Or are you one of those 'sins of the father' fools? Holding someone accountable for actions that aren't even their own??

5) No. It is a perfectly legitimate act. If all orcs are evil, including orc young, then there is no reason to spare them.

The reason is that they are physically incapable of having done anything evil. Killing someone because of something they cannot even possibly do is an evil thing.

6) No, I'm arguing that acting against evil is good, and sometimes part of that involves killing.

You have said that genocide is an act of good. This is patently false. Neutral actions, including killing, can indeed be done in the work of good, but that does not itself make those actions good, and an evil act (such as genocide or killing an innocent) will always taint an attempts to do good through them.

7) If the odds are very likely that they will, and they cannot be prevented, then they should be stopped before they have the opportunity. Saying "we won't shoot (or do anything to get rid of) someone until he has his hand on the trigger and his gun loaded and aimed at the president." is not a good idea. If you see someone with a gun looking at the president, and he's not one of the guys protecting said president, assuming he's an ally you don't know about is not recommended.

A different situation entirely. That's defense again, and no, it's still not good to kill in defense, even of another. But you said that even killing children, who don't even have a weapon and who are only around others of their kind, is an act of good.

8) Oh great. Morality is subjective. Since there's no evidence one way or another on Earth...
 
Well, if its subjective, then the whole question of whether or not it is wrong for me to kill someone for being evil is totally irrelevant, because only subjectively is anything wrong. So what's the point? "I think it's evil, therefore it is!"...that's not the point, right?

Morality ? good/evil. It can be an act of EVIL to do a morally acceptable thing for a malicious reason. Such as intentionally giving a couple a loan they can't afford for a house they can't afford in hopes of being able to profit off their bankruptcy and reselling the house again. Morality is subjective, good/evil are less so, especially in a game with planar concepts of such. An evil act (one done to cause pain or that harms innocents) can never contribute to a good cause, as it corrupts that cause. A (to us) morally unacceptable act, such as murder, is not itself evil in some societies (though this is an extreme that many will find hard to understand), but it will always be at best neutral, right along killing in self defense and killing for food.

9) Usually means "I can assume it will and act accordingly." It does not mean "I can assume it always will no matter what." but it does mean that I can rely on it being true and act accordingly.

No. Because as soon as you kill an Orc that's never done any wrong because of your assumption, you are now evil. As soon as you kill an Orc that you don't know

10) What's "sad" is assuming that even though 85% of all orcs I meet are evil, that I have to wait for the orc to be about to do evil to do anything, and even then, I probably shouldn't, because it technically hasn't done anything yet. It's only "probably" going to do something bad. I trust that getting silly here is not the goal.

You don't have to wait to do anything. If it's got an axe out and charging you across the battlefield, then self defense is acceptable (but not an act of good). You just have to wait for it to do evil to consider it evil.

11) No, I'm saying that its okay, if all orcs are evil, to kill all orcs, if there's no way to redeem them. If only some (however high a percentage) of orcs are evil, kill those that are evil (again, if redemption is not an option).

And how do you sort them out until they've done (or are right on the cusp of doing) an act of evil? You can't. That's the point.

Those who are not evil are left alone.

Not by your standards, as you've already killed all the children in their cribs since they're likely going to be evil.

Now, if I'm not certain, then I should not go around killing all orcs I see, but if 85% of all orcs are evil, assuming that the orc/s I meet are in the 15% is a worse assumption than assuming that they're in the 85% who are.

That's the wrong way of looking at it entirely though.

It should be: "Here is person. I have not met them before. What are they doing? Does it put me in harm? If yes, defend self. Is it an evil thing? If yes, then they are likely evil. If it's a very evil thing, stop it, even if it means killing. If no, is it a good thing? If yes, then they are likely good. If it's a very good thing, then help it happen. If not good or evil, is it doing something to harm someone I know/care about? If yes, then stop it, even if that means killing it."

Your current looking (as you've explained it) is this: "Here is an orc. It is likely evil, so stop it from doing anything that's not good, even if that means killing it."

As a short review:

There is a state between good and evil. It's called neutral. A lot of survival behaviors fall into this category, and doing them for that purpose is neither a good nor an evil act, and does not make a person less good or less evil. This includes things like eating, pissing, and killing in self defense or defense of a loved one.

Morality is not the same as good/evil. An act that is morally acceptable to a society can be either good, neutral, or evil, depending on how it's done.

Doing anything to intentionally gain (pleasure, money, fame, anything) at the expense of others (life, money, pain, cash, blood, fear, anything) when it is not necessary is an act of evil. This includes taking the life of the innocent, because you gain peace/pleasure/satisfaction in trade for their life itself when they were doing nothing to risk yours or another's.

Doing anything to intentionally give (pleasure, money, fame, anything) at the expense of self (life, money, pain, cash, blood, fear, anything) and not for a reward/benefit is an act of good. This includes taking a bullet to protect an innocent, because they gain peace/pleasure/life in trade for your life itself when you would not receive a personal benefit from their life continuing.

Good and evil cannot exist without each other. If no one is causing or feeling pain, there is no reason nor opportunity to give of one's self to end that pain.

altpersona

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Re: A moral question
« Reply #77 on: September 21, 2008, 09:35:10 AM »
4, original sin, guilty from birth till saved.

and the previous example given cheating on with friends wife and hell, yes thats how its claimed to work, commit a sin, and thats 10 commandment sin and burn, unless you pick up the Saved feat that, well saves you..

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EjoThims

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Re: A moral question
« Reply #78 on: September 21, 2008, 09:55:56 AM »
4, original sin, guilty from birth till saved.

That kind of thinking has done enough damage to the real world... Don't need it mudding up DnD.

Goes right along with the totalitarian 'guilty until proven innocent.' And that's not the way good operates.

and the previous example given cheating on with friends wife and hell, yes thats how its claimed to work, commit a sin, and thats 10 commandment sin and burn

Again, this bogus 1 strike and you're out (unless you say sorry to someone that you don't even know is there but not to the one you wronged) thing for minor things is just ridiculous. It's so obviously pathological manipulation of the masses and fearful herd behavior, yet people cling to it so dogmatically... Makes me eyes bleed.

unless you pick up the Saved feat that, well saves you..

It's not really a Feat... It's more like a skill trick (or a gp cost to Catholics).

And before anyone asks... I have a very low opinion of organized religion (especially western and middle eastern) and anyone who follows them without first thinking about it seriously and critically and/or anyone who automatically thinks that their undefinable super entity is any less imaginary than someone else's.  :wall

Prime32

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Re: A moral question
« Reply #79 on: September 21, 2008, 11:25:44 AM »
Those opposed to the good king are evil? What about this scenario?
Quote
King: "My trusted advisor, send some food to help that village."
Advisor: "Sure." I love the power this system grants me. I'll never oppose the king while I can use him as a figurehead. *sends soldiers to kill everyone in the vilage*
Survivor: "Why did you do this king? I swear I will kill you, you evil @#*$!"
In this case, evil people support the good king, and good people are opposed to him.

or worse:
Quote
King: "Men, send some food to help that village."
Men: "Sure. Oh no, something caught fire! And now the village is on fire!"
Survivor: "Why did you do this king? I swear I will kill you, you evil @#*$!"
Here the good-aligned survivor wants to kill the good king, because he thinks he is evil, even though no evil deeds were commited. If Elennsar (or someone with similar views) were the king, he would likely assume the survivor was evil, and try to kill him.


Say you have a Lawful Evil general in your Lawful Good army. He is your best general in your battles against the Chaotic Evil army, though he's not a very nice person. He always follows orders, but he will rape his own troops and torture enemies unless ordered not to. Would it be a good deed to kill him and cripple your forces?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2008, 11:28:36 AM by Prime32 »
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The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
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Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
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Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]