Author Topic: Does changing Tier of Wizard, Cleric and Druid have sence?  (Read 3201 times)

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Bortasz

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question is simple. Does reduction powers of that tree classes have sense and is possible?
Putting Wizard, Cleric and Druid from Tier 1 to Tier 2
Radical Taoist
[spoiler]It bears saying: if up against a logic-impervious DM who thinks Core is balanced and Psionics*  isn't, then the most powerful way to disprove that is to play a C.o.D. (Cleric or Druid). Noncore material will not be necessary unless you are going for pure overkill (Draconic Wildshape? Divine Metamagic?). So by all means, if you must win that argument, take you C.o.D. to town. Annihilate the opposition. Make the NPCs and other players scream "Oh no, it's C.o.D.zilla!!!!!" in badly dubbed English. Breathe radioactive fire. Knock down buildings. Then stomp out of the burning Tokyo that is the ruins of the game and swim off into the ocean, seeking a DM with some basic cognitive functions. [/profile]

Rejakor

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Re: Does changing Tier of Wizard, Cleric and Druid have sence?
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2011, 09:10:44 AM »
Define how you would do that without making the classes incredibly weak or not affecting their power whatsoever.

That said, there are already tier 3 version of all three classes.  Healer, Adept, and that Rich Burlew homebrew 'landtender' or whatever.  Probly heaps more out there considering homebrew.

Also, while it won't do much for your grammar, consider getting an english spellchecker for your browser, as sometimes it's hard to read your text due to misspellings.

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Re: Does changing Tier of Wizard, Cleric and Druid have sence?
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2011, 09:17:19 AM »
It certainly is possible. For Clerics, limit their knowledge of their spell list. For Druids, use the Shapeshift Variant in the PH2 instead of the standard Wild Shape. For Wizards, smite down with Great Justice the lots of ACFs/Variants and house rule out broken spells. Should be a good start, I guess.

Or homebrew things out, but that everyone knows.
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Re: Does changing Tier of Wizard, Cleric and Druid have sence?
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2011, 09:34:49 AM »
That said, there are already tier 3 version of all three classes.  Healer, Adept, and that Rich Burlew homebrew 'landtender' or whatever.  Probly heaps more out there considering homebrew.
What? The Healer and Adept are both T5. The homebrew thing... do you mean the NPC class? That's probably on par with the Adept, without refreshing my memory. The Healer is just that, and the other two are NPC classes.
In other words, not what was asked for. Bortasz asked for Tier 2, not Tier 5 or even Tier 3.

As for answering the question, it's hard without changing the classes significantly. Each does have a Tier 2 pendant (Wizard/Sorcerer, Cleric/Favored Soul, Druid/Shaman), but those are all spontaneous casters, and for good reason - they're Tier 2 because they can reach the vertical power the Tier 1s attain, but are severely restricted in versatility in comparison.
Overall, though, I'm unsure of the sense this would have. 'Nerfing' those three classes down to Tier 2 doesn't do much to curb their game-breaking abilities - it just gives them less of those (think of it as a nation having fifty nukes versus a nation having two nukes).
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Mixster

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Re: Does changing Tier of Wizard, Cleric and Druid have sence?
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2011, 09:38:56 AM »
Not really, but a better option is to get a bunch of people who agree on what power level the game is set on. If playing a Tier 1 game, then you don't want monks, if playing a Tier 5 game, you don't want wizards.

What the others said about lower tier versions of those classes is also true.

Btw. If you nerf wizard, cleric and druid, will you still allow people to play Erudites?
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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Bortasz

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Re: Does changing Tier of Wizard, Cleric and Druid have sence?
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2011, 10:06:36 AM »
Apt is Tier 4 if I remember....
Healer is in Tier 5 (Yes NPC class is more powerful than the Healer)

Erudites are Tier 2 unless you allow the "Spell to power" option.

I'm curious about nerfing that tree classes. It's hard weaking Wizard because you can only weaking his spell and that will harm Sorcerer also.

Cleric also don't have many special powers (Spells don't included) to reduction. And he have good class from Tier 2 as substitution. Favoured Soul.

Druid on the other hand.... Have many powers ho can be weaken. Wild Shane  to Aspect of nature. Delete Animal Companion. And (I think) he will be on the edge between Tier 1 and 2.
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[spoiler]It bears saying: if up against a logic-impervious DM who thinks Core is balanced and Psionics*  isn't, then the most powerful way to disprove that is to play a C.o.D. (Cleric or Druid). Noncore material will not be necessary unless you are going for pure overkill (Draconic Wildshape? Divine Metamagic?). So by all means, if you must win that argument, take you C.o.D. to town. Annihilate the opposition. Make the NPCs and other players scream "Oh no, it's C.o.D.zilla!!!!!" in badly dubbed English. Breathe radioactive fire. Knock down buildings. Then stomp out of the burning Tokyo that is the ruins of the game and swim off into the ocean, seeking a DM with some basic cognitive functions. [/profile]

Mixster

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Re: Does changing Tier of Wizard, Cleric and Druid have sence?
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2011, 10:16:58 AM »
Erudites are Tier 2 unless you allow the "Spell to power" option.

Nope, they are Tier 1 unless you allow the spell to power option, which bumps them to tier 0.

Artificer and Archivist are also tier 1 classes, whatcha gonna do about them?
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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Bortasz

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Re: Does changing Tier of Wizard, Cleric and Druid have sence?
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2011, 11:28:49 AM »
Quote
Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played with skill, can easily break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat or plenty of house rules, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Examples: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite (Spell to Power Variant)

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potentially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and easily world shattering, but not in quite so many ways.  Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Examples: Sorcerer, Favoured Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges), Eurdite (No Spell to Power)
So what about Erudite?

I never play witch Artificer and Archivist.
but what about read about them.

Artificer need Time... Plenty of time... ridicules amount of plenty of time. Without it is hard to pull the best of him. Of course you can produces Scrolls but they can one use and some Reserve craft go away. And can produces one per day.

Archivist i Have any ideas. Does you have any?
Radical Taoist
[spoiler]It bears saying: if up against a logic-impervious DM who thinks Core is balanced and Psionics*  isn't, then the most powerful way to disprove that is to play a C.o.D. (Cleric or Druid). Noncore material will not be necessary unless you are going for pure overkill (Draconic Wildshape? Divine Metamagic?). So by all means, if you must win that argument, take you C.o.D. to town. Annihilate the opposition. Make the NPCs and other players scream "Oh no, it's C.o.D.zilla!!!!!" in badly dubbed English. Breathe radioactive fire. Knock down buildings. Then stomp out of the burning Tokyo that is the ruins of the game and swim off into the ocean, seeking a DM with some basic cognitive functions. [/profile]

Kajhera

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Re: Does changing Tier of Wizard, Cleric and Druid have sence?
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2011, 11:44:38 AM »
Easiest way to limit the wizard is to limit the availability of scrolls, spellbook access, and prestige classes + variants I suppose. And remove the independent research option because I can't honestly find how that works anyway. They only get two a level free, y'know.

Erudites can get, like ... every psionic power still ... psionic powers are just not usually quite as gamesmashing as spells. In feel they are certainly still T1-level flexible day to day.

Bauglir

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Re: Does changing Tier of Wizard, Cleric and Druid have sence?
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2011, 11:50:08 AM »
Converting everything to spontaneous casting is a simple way to drag a lot of them down to Tier 2. Beyond that, you need to start changing spells and altering class features and suchlike.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Bortasz

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Re: Does changing Tier of Wizard, Cleric and Druid have sence?
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2011, 12:19:28 PM »
Tier 2 is okey for my taste. I prefer that classes be add Tier 2-3 and it's good power for a Team.
Radical Taoist
[spoiler]It bears saying: if up against a logic-impervious DM who thinks Core is balanced and Psionics*  isn't, then the most powerful way to disprove that is to play a C.o.D. (Cleric or Druid). Noncore material will not be necessary unless you are going for pure overkill (Draconic Wildshape? Divine Metamagic?). So by all means, if you must win that argument, take you C.o.D. to town. Annihilate the opposition. Make the NPCs and other players scream "Oh no, it's C.o.D.zilla!!!!!" in badly dubbed English. Breathe radioactive fire. Knock down buildings. Then stomp out of the burning Tokyo that is the ruins of the game and swim off into the ocean, seeking a DM with some basic cognitive functions. [/profile]

MalcolmSprye

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Re: Does changing Tier of Wizard, Cleric and Druid have sence?
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2011, 12:27:03 PM »
Easiest way to limit the wizard is to limit the availability of scrolls, spellbook access, and prestige classes + variants I suppose. And remove the independent research option because I can't honestly find how that works anyway. They only get two a level free, y'know.

Erudites can get, like ... every psionic power still ... psionic powers are just not usually quite as gamesmashing as spells. In feel they are certainly still T1-level flexible day to day.

Indeed.  This is how my GM has limited the power of most magic.  It is especially viable in a campaign that doesn't take place near a major city.  Have the wizard make gather information checks during downtime to try to find scrolls he wants to learn.  My GM also limits stuff like summoning or polymorph school stuff;  for anything except basic stuff, your character needs to make knowledge checks, and if you're looking for something very specific or rare, you have to beat the check by a fair amount.  For example, there's no check required to alter self into a dwarf... but if you want to know about a high armor humanoid with a swim speed, you'll need to make a high DC knowledge(local).


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Re: Does changing Tier of Wizard, Cleric and Druid have sence?
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2011, 03:18:43 PM »
Converting everything to spontaneous casting is a simple way to drag a lot of them down to Tier 2. Beyond that, you need to start changing spells and altering class features and suchlike.
Mostly altering spells, but making magic spontaneous is an excellent start and thematically appropriate. Not many mythical spellcasters walk around with spells as varied as the stuff on Batman's belt, they usually have one good one, a bunch of decent ones and then a huge array of minor tricks.
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Re: Does changing Tier of Wizard, Cleric and Druid have sence?
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2011, 03:49:44 PM »
If you want to play a Tier-2 Wizard, play a Sorcerer.  You can even move the spells known/per day progressions up a level, and let them re-train a spell known for each day they spend studying a spellbook with the spell they're looking to replace it with.

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Re: Does changing Tier of Wizard, Cleric and Druid have sence?
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2011, 03:51:35 PM »
Converting everything to spontaneous casting is a simple way to drag a lot of them down to Tier 2. Beyond that, you need to start changing spells and altering class features and suchlike.
Mostly altering spells, but making magic spontaneous is an excellent start and thematically appropriate. Not many mythical spellcasters walk around with spells as varied as the stuff on Batman's belt, they usually have one good one, a bunch of decent ones and then a huge array of minor tricks.
+1.  We do stuff like that.  We also make it a bit easier for spellcasters to counter each other, and in an upcoming game are avoiding things like DMM (persist) while making other metamagic feats a bit easier to use.  It's probably still T2, though I'm not sure what that really is, but it's fine for us.  I'm playing a Crusader/Mo9 in that game and I'm confident I won't feel left behind and it starts at 15th level.

EDIT:  and we're really flexible about Spells Known.  I think our guideline was "don't go crazy," probably no more than double the spells you can cast per day in spells known.  The casters are also a bit restricted thematically (warrens, from the Malazan books), so there's that, too, though we're also really flexible on fluff.  But, some things that you're only rarely going to cast but fit your theme -- like Tunnel Swallow for an earth mage (an awesome spell, but only comes up infrequently) or Stone Shape -- are kind of "freebies." 
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 03:53:14 PM by Unbeliever »

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Re: Does changing Tier of Wizard, Cleric and Druid have sence?
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2011, 09:21:57 PM »
Forcing a 5/10 or 6/10 casting PrC on them ... slows the ascent a little.