Author Topic: [All] Nix point buy...if you like  (Read 4616 times)

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Chemus

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[All] Nix point buy...if you like
« on: July 20, 2008, 03:33:09 PM »
My friend Sirperry and I, and our gaming group of yore, don't like point buy. Personally, I hate the taste and I think Sirperry just likes rolling dice. We've devised a system that allows players to roll and still keeps most people in balance, or at least satisfied. Now, you can stop me if you've heard this one, but here it is:

Everyone rolls one set of stats (unassigned) by your favorite rolling system. Once they have a set of stats rolled up, everyone compares and chooses the complete set of stats that they like the best. Commonly this will have all players with the same stats, but as with point buy, one set may be more attractive to a particular player due to build or prejudices. Effectively 4 players get 4 sets of stats from which to choose.

In a quick example, I have me, myself and I. We each roll 4d6 for our stats, dropping lowest.

   me  ms   I
1: 16  13  13
2: 13   8  14
3: 14  11   8
4: 15  10  13
5: 11  12  11
6: 13  17   9


Me got the best rolls, hands down. Myself held a fair accounting, but I got handed some sucky dice, and just couldn't make the cut. In this set, it looks like everyone gets me's stat set; the entire column, not just the best roll for each row. Which happens to come out to...37-point buy, I think. You could have optimized the point buy better for your particular build, but there's nothin unplayable in those stats, IMO.

We like and use it, and hope that some ALL of you will too. ;)

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Dilvish

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Re: [All] Nix point buy...if you like
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2008, 04:25:00 PM »
Point buy can be used to create NPCs, but that's about it for me. I don't like the idea of using it for PCs.

As for your system, I've been using exactly the same since a few years. :)

Sirperry

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Re: [All] Nix point buy...if you like
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2008, 04:53:02 PM »
Roll them bones !  :D
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: [All] Nix point buy...if you like
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2008, 05:22:04 PM »
I prefer 3d6+6, drop lowest or a random PB. Determining random PB is 2d6+30. Lowest possible is 32, highest is 42. Of course, the safest way to use RPB is to roll it yourself and assign that result to all of your players, but I prefer to let their luck do the work. The average is 37 PB, as expected, and even the ones who roll minimum still have decent stats to work with.


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OneWinged4ngel

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Re: [All] Nix point buy...if you like
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2008, 05:46:38 PM »
(Deleted)
« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 07:09:52 PM by OneWinged4ngel »

Chemus

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Re: [All] Nix point buy...if you like
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2008, 06:51:02 PM »
S_F, that's a pretty good system, but point buy just rubs me the wrong way.

Don't look at the gaming den OW4, so I don't know that one.

Like I said, everyone has to like and use this. It's mandatory to hood moral hygiene.  [/kidding]
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Re: [All] Nix point buy...if you like
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2008, 10:26:29 PM »
My friend Sirperry and I, and our gaming group of yore, don't like point buy. Personally, I hate the taste and I think Sirperry just likes rolling dice. We've devised a system that allows players to roll and still keeps most people in balance, or at least satisfied.
  I don't suppose you've tried the Card system they have on the gaming den?  It's like rolling, except everyone ends up with similarly good stats anyways.

Never seen it before. My problem is that I like it when my players get bad rolls, as it makes them play classes that work with the lower stats. Really, the one class that can work with a 10 in everything is the Warlock (believe it or not). There's enough ways to boost attack rolls that it can be a potent class while dealing with the bad stats.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Squirrelloid

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Re: [All] Nix point buy...if you like
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2008, 05:37:36 AM »
The problem with handing everyone the same stats is this will benefit some classes at the expense of others in a random way (Exactly what set of stats you get will effect who benefits the most).  Point buy lets players tailor their stats to their character concept while putting everyone on an even field.

For example, if an 18 isn't rolled by your method then casters are going to be less desirable (certainly playable, but casters care more about an 18 in their casting stat than any other number they have).  The lower the highest stat is, the less desirable casters are going to be.

On the other hand, something like a monk will be completely unplayable if you roll a couple really high attributes and the rest low.  Assuming your group actually is willing to play monks.  (I mean, I know there's a lot of COers here, playing monk is like taking one for the team so the DM doesn't have to, but I do see them played in real games).

The other weird outcome of your method is that the more players you have, the better attributes are expected to be.  (More attempts = better average 'high' attempt).

Finally, how do you determine which set of rolls is the best.  Obviously, in your example it was clear cut.  But if you had the following sets of rolls:

18 12 12 12 12 12
16 16 14 12 10 10

Which one is better?  How do you judge?  What about 18 and 12s vs. 16 16 14 14 10 10.  Its got one higher plus, but I guarantee some players will vastly prefer the 18 and 12s to the 16/14/10 pairs.  "Better" is really subjective depending on what your character building goals are.

I prefer point buy because it lets players play the character they want to play going in, not have their dice rolls decide for them.  (Admittedly, playing whatever is best for your dice rolls can be fun, but then everyone does have to roll separately so the dice rolls are best for different concepts).
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AfterCrescent

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Re: [All] Nix point buy...if you like
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2008, 05:49:55 AM »
Squirrelloid, I think you missed a bit about the process.  In your above example, if those were the rolls, each player could choose, based on their own character concept, whether they want the 18 and 12s or the 16s and down.  So a caster who only wanted an 18 in his casting stat could have it, with 12s in the other areas, while someone who needs multiple attributes can take the second set.
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Chemus

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Re: [All] Nix point buy...if you like
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2008, 05:51:09 AM »
Finally, how do you determine which set of rolls is the best.
Once they have a set of stats rolled up, everyone compares and chooses the complete set of stats that they like the best. Commonly this will have all players with the same stats, but as with point buy, one set may be more attractive to a particular player due to build or prejudices. Effectively 4 players get 4 sets of stats from which to choose.

aaaaaand....ninja'd!
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AndyJames

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Re: [All] Nix point buy...if you like
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2008, 11:51:30 PM »
Good system. I will give it a try next time I start a game. I personally hate PB because of the 8, 14, 16, 18, 8, 8 type of stat arrays that tend to happen in PB.

Flash_Plasma

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Re: [All] Nix point buy...if you like
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2008, 05:40:03 PM »
hmmm, so basically, this is like a stat pool where everyone makes their rolls, writes them out and everyone gets to pick the rolls they want?

DaveoftheRave

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Re: [All] Nix point buy...if you like
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2008, 05:44:50 PM »
My problem with alternate rolling systems, this one included, is that everyone ends up with high stats.

I think 4d6 drop lowest ends up a bit on the high side, but 3d6 is a little on the low side.

This system might have merit if the players rolled 3d6 instead of 4d6.

Quote
I personally hate PB because of the 8, 14, 16, 18, 8, 8 type of stat arrays that tend to happen in PB.

I think the problem there is that you're giving your players too many points.

16, 14, 12, 11, 10, 8 is pretty standard or 16, 16, 13, 8, 8, 8 and 18, 14, 11, 8, 8, 8 would be the extreme versions of standard point buy.  If a player wanted to play a character like that I would let him.  I like high and low stats another reason though why 4d6 and PB aren't that great, nothing too low.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2008, 05:56:18 PM by DaveoftheRave »

Chemus

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Re: [All] Nix point buy...if you like
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2008, 02:10:08 AM »
It's my belief that if everyone has relatively high stats, or low stats for that matter, then the characters have that much greater chance of being 'balanced'. I understand about the desire to have lower stats, but any enhancement of the players can be balanced in the encounters, IMO. I think that the players only really need to be balanced against each other; the monsters will be fixable by the DM.

I can restate that again redundantly again if anyone needs me to...;)
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AndyJames

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Re: [All] Nix point buy...if you like
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2008, 06:35:41 AM »
My problem with alternate rolling systems, this one included, is that everyone ends up with high stats.

I think 4d6 drop lowest ends up a bit on the high side, but 3d6 is a little on the low side.

This system might have merit if the players rolled 3d6 instead of 4d6.

Quote
I personally hate PB because of the 8, 14, 16, 18, 8, 8 type of stat arrays that tend to happen in PB.

I think the problem there is that you're giving your players too many points.

16, 14, 12, 11, 10, 8 is pretty standard or 16, 16, 13, 8, 8, 8 and 18, 14, 11, 8, 8, 8 would be the extreme versions of standard point buy.  If a player wanted to play a character like that I would let him.  I like high and low stats another reason though why 4d6 and PB aren't that great, nothing too low.

What do you mean "too many points"? That is a 32 PB. However, is it any different to a 18, 14, 14, 8, 8, 8 (28 PB)? Would that make you feel better? If it does, say so, but you are still missing the point.



[spoiler]
I can't believe I have to spell out the point, given the board we are in, but here goes:

The point of the example is "a couple of high stats with a whole bunch of 8s". While this could also happen in 4d6-L, it is a lot less likely. In PB, that is almost a default setting. The actual number of points given is irrelevant.

I don't know if RaveDave genuinely did not see it, or if he is just nitpicking to make himself feel better, but good gods, you'd think that here, of all the places, the utterly stupid, and words really cannot express how far into the Realm of Stupid(tm) I think this is, cry of "your problem is that you gave too many points" when coupled with no other information given :mad

I mean, hell, man! It is a 32 point buy! It's not the end of the frakking world! Even the DMG advocates it for a high-powered game!  :wall

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[/spoiler]

DaveoftheRave

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Re: [All] Nix point buy...if you like
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2008, 11:46:10 AM »
Quote
I don't know if RaveDave genuinely did not see it, or if he is just nitpicking to make himself feel better, but good gods, you'd think that here, of all the places, the utterly stupid, and words really cannot express how far into the Realm of Stupid(tm) I think this is, cry of "your problem is that you gave too many points" when coupled with no other information given

Maybe you need a timeout from the internet?

Quote
I understand about the desire to have lower stats, but any enhancement of the players can be balanced in the encounters, IMO. I think that the players only really need to be balanced against each other; the monsters will be fixable by the DM.

It wasn't for a point of balance per se, but for the feeling of the characters.  I find that with a lot of high stats they lose meaning.  At some point why not just have all 18s for example.

Now your point is that you end up with high and low stats in point buy.  I showed that with a lower point buy that isn't the case.  If the player were to do that with 25 PB the character would end up being too weak b/c of it.

Ultimately I'm not a huge fan of PB either.  I like rolling dice to force randomness into the character.  I've yet to find a method that I truly like though.  Most of the methods people come up with push the numbers up, which is simply not to my taste.

I have no desire to pretend to be a god, I want to play a character I can relate to and get something out of.  Thats my personal taste which is obviously not everyone's.

Most of the time when I see people posting their characters online they have mostly 16s and 18s and are some crazy lycanthrope-dragon-vampire uber hybrid thing.  That doesn't interest me, but its cool that they like it.

I'd love to find a rolling method that duplicates 25 PB, but if you want something that duplicates 40 PB or 50 PB or whatever there are a lot of methods I'm sure.

Here's one:

5d6 drop lowest 2, reroll 1s 2s 3s roll 7 keep the best 6 and roll 6 sets of stats and keep the best one.

At what point are we just pretending to make random stats?

AndyJames

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Re: [All] Nix point buy...if you like
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2008, 12:52:09 PM »
You are telling me that you don't end up with a string of 8s in PB, especially under lower PB? Let me stop you right there and say that you are either a liar or a dramaqueen moron. Good night.

DaveoftheRave

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Re: [All] Nix point buy...if you like
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2008, 01:18:05 PM »
I'm going to quote myself here.

Quote
or 16, 16, 13, 8, 8, 8 and 18, 14, 11, 8, 8, 8 would be the extreme versions of standard point buy

Quote
Ultimately I'm not a huge fan of PB either.

I don't like point buy.

Quote
or a dramaqueen moron. Good night.

Pot.  Kettle.  Black.

Sirperry

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Re: [All] Nix point buy...if you like
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2008, 02:47:05 PM »
AndyJames, I know this was not addressed to me, but I wanted to point out that I do not end up with a string of 8's when using point buy.  I'll take one 8, at most.  It may not be optimized, but that's how I like it.  Of course, I also enjoy a campaign where everybody rolls 3d6 and plays it in that order.
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AndyJames

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Re: [All] Nix point buy...if you like
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2008, 03:47:23 AM »
AndyJames, I know this was not addressed to me, but I wanted to point out that I do not end up with a string of 8's when using point buy.  I'll take one 8, at most.  It may not be optimized, but that's how I like it.  Of course, I also enjoy a campaign where everybody rolls 3d6 and plays it in that order.
When you are playing with a lower PB, you either end up with a string of 8s or you become ineffectual at what you do. That is the basic problem with PB. Also, you tend to get locked into a set of stats. For example, two guys playing human wizards are likely to end up with the same stats with maybe minor variations in PB than in rolling. That is my problem with PB. It reduces choices.

I won't even bother answering the drugged up fool before you.