Creating 'Legendary Fighter', competition, are there prizes?

[Tshern]

Major issues:
-   Too few power points for the tactics mentioned

Each of the arrows provide him five power points he can use for any one manifestation, that is a substantial amount indeed considering PWs have a bunch of long duration buffs.

-   Metamorphosis does not turn you into an object, making you immune to all mind-affecting stuff, but you just take the form which gives exactly and only the properties outlined in the power and the psywar remains the original creature.

The psicrystal can.

So buffs before the surprise round?

-   Most importantly:

So create a power that is remarkably similar to Metamorphosis and call it Psionic Polymorph.

Minor issues:
-   Metamorphosing into a mimic does not get its Ex qualities.

Only (Ex) attacks, true.

-   Zen archery bonus does not apply to the Ex special attack of the manticore.

Yes it does, Zen archery applies to all ranged attacks.

Benefi t: You can use your Wisdom modifi er instead of
your Dexterity modifi er when making a ranged attack roll.

And the Monk solves this problem by doing what?

Well, I think my old monk guide needs deserves an own, new discussion thread.

Probably better not to derail this, I agree.

Not all DMs agree, unfortunately. That's why I try to keep the number of books used low. Just a matter of personal preference.

Yes, an amulet worn underneath a plate armour cannot be targeted dispelled. But the usual buffs from spells or spell buffs cast from items on the buffed character can be dispelled as normal.

If the item can block line of effect with clothes, why can't the character? Get naked, buff, put on clothes. By your logic this ought to work.

Anything with a weapon can do this easily. Partially charged wands and wand chambers for the win.

As outlined above, by RAW he cannot craft a skin of proteus since he does not know the power.

Create a new power as outlined above.

Because the monk used only half of the money the psywar spent. And even so beats the psywar by a wide margin.

No, the Monk doesn't, it really doesn't.

[/uote]No, the monk is much stronger. Even IF metamorphosis would be considered legal in the way it is used by this psywar. I wonder what is so difficult about seeing this. The monk is faster, does way more damage, has way higher attack bonus, is stealthier, has better combat control, is better able to handle social situations etc. (just check the individual categories).[/quote]
How exactly is Monk better at combat control? Moreover, the PW is perfectly capable of assuming faster forms than the Monk and buff to get higher AB.

And imagine both had access to, say, 10,000,000 gp for items. Both could just fill themselves up to the brim with 1st- to 9th level spell items. The more wbl is around, the less the differences in class abilities matter, and the more non-casting classes have an edge, since in the AMF areas, they are way more ahead with their more numerous non-magic abilities.

Step out of the AMF.

At level 12. I am certain he can conjure a build for pretty much any level.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

So create a power that is remarkably similar to Metamorphosis and call it Psionic Polymorph.

I consider new spell/power research to be the same as making up your own prestige class.  IE: not suited to any balance discussion.

[Nachofan99]

So create a power that is remarkably similar to Metamorphosis and call it Psionic Polymorph.

I consider new spell/power research to be the same as making up your own prestige class.  IE: not suited to any balance discussion.

Seems about right.



I honestly still don't see how having crafting feats gives you carte blanche authority to ignore WBL.  I thought the entire point of crafting was so that you could deliberately choose what items you had access to and when - and if you somehow went over WBL, well, the WBL rules are pretty clear about what happens when that happens.

I don't see why it would be exceedingly difficult to make another Psywar even under the normal WBL limitations and without custom powers, and still have it be quite good anyways.

[Lycanthromancer]

So create a power that is remarkably similar to Metamorphosis and call it Psionic Polymorph.

I consider new spell/power research to be the same as making up your own prestige class.  IE: not suited to any balance discussion.

Seems about right.



I honestly still don't see how having crafting feats gives you carte blanche authority to ignore WBL.  I thought the entire point of crafting was so that you could deliberately choose what items you had access to and when - and if you somehow went over WBL, well, the WBL rules are pretty clear about what happens when that happens.

I don't see why it would be exceedingly difficult to make another Psywar even under the normal WBL limitations and without custom powers, and still have it be quite good anyways.

Note that I also spent nearly 12,000 xp in the process, which augmented my WBL. The amount of gold I spent on items was the same, but I 'bought' all those items at about 1/3 the cost.

It's like when you see those Super-Coupon-Moms on the daytime talk shows; they may have gotten $1,700 in groceries, but they still only spent $120.

As far as building another level 12 psychic warrior without abusing item creation? Yeah, I could do that. Give me a few days, and we'll see (assuming I have time, anyhoo).

Are flaws allowed? Traits? I assume any first party sources are allowed.

Also, I think that other thread was 32 PB?

[Nachofan99]

Like I said Lycanthromancer, I have no doubt that the Pyschic Warrior can still be built to even stricter demands and still probably outperform the monk in literally everything.  It's definitely a more versatile class.

The coupon example, however, is perfect in illustrating WBL rules.  WBL counts the value of your items in the same way as the super coupon ladies will say "This is $1,700 worth of stuff" instead of saying "This is $120 worth of stuff...because I used coupons (XP+crafting)".  DMG pg. 199 seems to be abundantly clear that the *value* of the items is the determining factor, not the cost to you.

[Lycanthromancer]

Like I said Lycanthromancer, I have no doubt that the Pyschic Warrior can still be built to even stricter demands and still probably outperform the monk in literally everything.  It's definitely a more versatile class.

The coupon example, however, is perfect in illustrating WBL rules.  WBL counts the value of your items in the same way as the super coupon ladies will say "This is $1,700 worth of stuff" instead of saying "This is $120 worth of stuff...because I used coupons (XP+crafting)".  DMG pg. 199 seems to be abundantly clear that the *value* of the items is the determining factor, not the cost to you.

In this case, the *value* is 1/2 base cost in gp + 1/25 base cost in xp.

Like I said before, WBL isn't the only determining factor in the price of a character's items.

After all, that character was of lower level but had extra effective WBL to make up for it. That's supposedly a fair exchange. That's what the designers thought it was, anyway.

[Nachofan99]

Now see, I'm perfectly willing to be shown otherwise, but I thought the "value" of the item was the full price as listed in the DMG or wherever else you would buy it from.  Hit me up with some text and I'll be perfectly happy.

Because I read the sidebar in the DMG pg. 282 right side, 2nd paragraph down:  "Prices presented in the magic item descriptions in this book are the market value...." and it clarifies that it is generally double the crafted cost.  Again, generally - because doubling the crafting cost doesn't always get you back to the market value.

If I'm wrong please feel free.

[Sir Giacomo]

As far as building another level 12 psychic warrior without abusing item creation? Yeah, I could do that. Give me a few days, and we'll see (assuming I have time,

I'm looking forward to that. I truly am.
The psywar has some good buffs by that level, although I guess there will still be the problem of limited power points per day while most of the monk's combat power is there 24/7.

And Nachofan99, you are correct about your wbl interpretation. It was also discussed further up in this thread. All character classes with skills, feats and/or magic can in Theory obtain more gold and items outside normal adventuring. That is the reason a wbl limit exists,

- Giacomo

[Lycanthromancer]

Now see, I'm perfectly willing to be shown otherwise, but I thought the "value" of the item was the full price as listed in the DMG or wherever else you would buy it from.  Hit me up with some text and I'll be perfectly happy.

That's the base price. The gp "cost," according to what the crafting feats say, is 1/2 the base price plus the cost in xp. Check any of them for details.

Because I read the sidebar in the DMG pg. 282 right side, 2nd paragraph down:  "Prices presented in the magic item descriptions in this book are the market value...." and it clarifies that it is generally double the crafted cost.  Again, generally - because doubling the crafting cost doesn't always get you back to the market value.

If I'm wrong please feel free.

That's the general rule. The specific rule overrides that, and is provided for in the crafting feats themselves.

You have X amount of gp to spend in equipping your character on character creation, not X amount in items. If you choose to spend other resources in doing so (such as xp or crafting reserves), then you can expand those resources considerably.

Otherwise, how would artificers even work?

[Faithless tbe Wonder Boy]

My main problem with this WBL argument is that it seems to be ignoring what crafting actually means.

Lycanthromancer, it seems like you're essentially arguing the following formula...

ITEM = 1/2 base cost in gold + 1/25 base cost in XP

...when I would argue that, actually, it's:

ITEM = 1/2 base cost in gold + 1/25 base cost in XP + time it takes to create item

Time is a real resource in an actual game, in many ways more important than gold or XP.  But if, while creating your character, you try to base your WBL off of the crafting formula, you're essentially granting yourself unlimited time (by handwaving it away through character background, or whatever).  Basically, you're taking what is a real, tangible resource that would impact any actual game, and giving it to yourself for free by virtue of backstory.

[Sir Giacomo]

Otherwise, how would artificers even work?

Maybe by sticking to wbl like everyone else? And they do have infusions plus craft reserve to save XP.

Good night,

- Giacomo

[Nachofan99]

Otherwise, how would artificers even work?

Artificers would work because they can use the wealth of another character to craft items for other characters and therefore do not exceed their own WBL because it's not their Wealth.  They use their own XP reserve and help other party members is greatly.  Artificers also work because you are essentially destroying 1 magic item to gain another item.

Also, again, I've never seen crafting rules say "Please ignore WBL rules when crafting."  In all of the games I've ever played or DM'd in crafting has been used to automatically assure you will get exactly the items you want when you want them; not to ignore and exceed WBL.

I'm not convinced by you saying Check the crafting feats.  I checked the crafting feats and they don't mention the word "Value" ever.  Cost and price seem to be used all over the place but Value appears no where in there.  Again, I'm perfectly willing to open my books again and read something if you will provide me with a page number.  I see "Value" defined by the quote and page I gave.  This could be exactly why WBL uses "Value" and not "Price" or "Cost"; to indicate that crafting is not supposed to break WBL.

I'm not trying to engage in a semantics battle; I simply don't see what you're saying in the rules.

[Talore]

So, what we're doing right now is engaging in a pointless arguement over how wealth should be arbitrated in a competition between two classes in a pen and paper game, which is essentially the definition of arbitrary. When we recognize that the artificer can break down items into xp, and then spend less xp to make the same item, thus gaining resources in net, and allowing him to further extend his wealth.

Okay then. Or we could not have a pointless arguement.

[Halinn]

I'm not convinced by you saying Check the crafting feats.  I checked the crafting feats and they don't mention the word "Value" ever.  Cost and price seem to be used all over the place but Value appears no where in there.  Again, I'm perfectly willing to open my books again and read something if you will provide me with a page number.  I see "Value" defined by the quote and page I gave.  This could be exactly why WBL uses "Value" and not "Price" or "Cost"; to indicate that crafting is not supposed to break WBL.

Value, yes. Not, however, market value. The value of item X for a crafting character is 1/2 N gp and 1/25 N xp

Also, artificers would not work by crafting items for other characters under your interpretation either, because then you would be breaking their WBL

[Kajhera]

"Table X: Character Wealth by Level is based on average treasures found in average encounters compared with the experience points earned in those encounters. Using that information, you can determine how much wealth a character should have based on her level."

Therefore... think about what would happen with a character with item crafting in the party for those prior encounters vs. one without. If you still wind up interpreting it so that a character starts with that amount of wealth, no more no less, don't be surprised if your itemcrafting players decide to come in with a thousand gold worth of materials rather than items and relax at the tavern for a few days before pursuing adventure.

I'll go for the pointless argument thanks, could be helpful to someone. I've never thought about the alternate position before.

[Nachofan99]

None of you are even paying attention.

All character classes can exceed WBL through simple skill useage like Perform and a backstory of 100 years of Warforged disco dancing before adventuring.

Arguing that Crafting grants you an exemption from WBL is of exactly the same merit as using Perform to be exempt from WBL.

Where in the rules is Crafting given a specific exemption from WBL?

[Unbeliever]

Ok, this is getting out of hand.  WBL is a guideline included in the DMG that gives you some sense of the assumptions the game designers are making when they think about what constitutes X or Y level.  For character creation purposes, most of us have adopted that as a heuristic, saying that when we make a 10th level character they are entitled to whatever that chart gives them.  And, usually, we let people pick it, though various people may have their own take on that one. 

People on this thread are instead acting as if it is hard-coded in the rules somewhere.  There is nowhere to my knowledge in any of the rules -- DMG, Rules Compendium, SRD, where anything along the lines of "if a character uses a crafting feat, skill, guile, etc. to gain extra wealth you should have those gnomes from Golden Axe come and take it away."  If I am mistaken, please show me the text contrary to it and I will shut the hell up.  But, the quote that Kajheera has thoughtfully provided kind of illustrates how it is a guideline based on general assumptions, not a gnome-fueled hard and fast rule. 

Personally, I think the idea that it is so hard-coded fails due to reductio ad absurdum.  If I am restricted to the value of my WBL, no matter what, then any crafting feats, feats that reduce crafting costs, and so on make no sense.  The second the wizard scribes a few scrolls he's off the WBL, and the resources should be stripped from him.  Further, Bob the Master Performer and Joe the Fighter w/ no Skills should have the same exact amount of change in their pocket?  Why bother listing the monetary values for crafting and performing and a host of other skills?  What about the Mercantile Background feat? 

Now, I can totally get behind the argument that for the purposes of a CharOpp discussion saying that you can have crafted whatever you want, and effectively double your WBL, might be unrealistic.  On the one hand, you are paying w/ the cost of some feats (so there is something lost there), but on the other hand it's unrealistic w/in the context of an actual game (perhaps, arguably).  That's fine.  I have my own personal inclinations, but whatever.  For the purposes of a CharOpp discussion, or for a given campaign even, just pick a set of guidelines and go w/ it. 

For the purposes of this Legendary Fighter thread, I'd probably just say ignore crafting and let people have whatever items they want.  Doing otherwise probably stacks the deck too far in favor of spellcaster types. 

[Nachofan99]

People on this thread are instead acting as if it is hard-coded in the rules somewhere.  There is nowhere to my knowledge in any of the rules -- DMG, Rules Compendium, SRD, where anything along the lines of "if a character uses a crafting feat, skill, guile, etc. to gain extra wealth you should have those gnomes from Golden Axe come and take it away."  If I am mistaken, please show me the text contrary to it and I will shut the hell up.

DMG pg 51 last paragraph.  This illustrates beautifully exactly the situation. "The PC's needn't have average treasure at every stage in their careers, but if an imbalance (either high or low) persists for more than a few levels, you should take gradual action to correct it by awarding slightly more or slightly less treasure."


So if your character crafted - or disco danced - or tilled a farm - or became a landlord - or did whatever they did to exceed the standard amount of wealth they "should" have, the DM is literally supposed to make sure that it gets equalized.  DMG2 also has the "Running a Business" section pg. 180.  it prefaces the chapter by saying that most adventurers get treasure/income/revenue from killing monsters and taking their stuff - but there are others ways.  As you further complicate things by introducing crafting, running a business, skills for profit etc.  WBL is still there!  And yes it's a guideline because that's the only one we have!

It's not on me to find a place saying income earned by crafting/skills/feats etc can't break WBL - it's on you to find text that says you are allowed to break WBL.

That doesn't mean if you pick up 1 CP off the street and have gone over WBL that the Golden Axe gnomes come and kick your ass (love the analogy too btw and will use that in my next DM session) but it's there in print that you're supposed to make sure imbalances don't get huge and don't persist - and that goes both ways either for too much or too little.

What DM is going to let the Monk PC have "average" while the PsyWar character gets "too much"?  Seems like an unfair DM.

Again, I thought the entire point of this thread is supposed to be about PsyWar and Monk optimization, not wealth optimization.  I still think the Psywar can kick the Monk's ass without dancing around WBL.

How would it be "out of hand" to want both players in a game to have the same gold value in starting items?  If anything it's "out of hand" to let one of the players start with three times the WBL chart in items, and force the other player to stay average.  I can't see how what I'm saying is somehow "out there".

Additionally, crafting works just fine.  I am not going to spend 3 pages telling you how but check DMG pg. 54 sidebar and also DMG pg. 51!  They both describe exactly what happens.

[Lycanthromancer]

Thing is, after a certain point, the DM can't control WBL without houseruling anyway if the players decide they want extra.

Converting cows into salt into gold is amazingly easy, even without worrying about the potential of buyer's/seller's markets.

Psionics, not so much, but definitely for the wizardly-types.

[Sir Giacomo]

Excellent description of how wbl works, Nachofan99!

wbl for build comparisons should not be exceeded.

- Giacomo