Author Topic: Warlock and Rogue: potential combination?  (Read 7815 times)

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Lokathor

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Re: Warlock and Rogue: potential combination?
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2008, 12:01:38 PM »
Mmmmm, yeah, I recall that, but I ignored it because it was 6am. fix'd. Though, now I see that you also got him to the contrary already. Maybe I should think more before posting at 6am.

Squirrelloid

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Re: Warlock and Rogue: potential combination?
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2008, 04:13:29 PM »
Except the rogue gets to maximize his SA too, because its damage other than bonus damage from a critical, so that's another 5d8 (40 damage) at epic.  Ie, 68+mods damage with a dagger.  (Bugbear brutal scoundrel rogue at 7[1d6] = 42 dagger + 40 SA + str + dex + misc + bonus damage from critical).  So the Warlock is in the same ballpark as an decent rogue and behind an optimized rogue.  Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

I mean, yeah, if you assume a crappy rogue build, then this optimized warlock outperforms... I think that's going to be expected.
The Warlock in question also gets Sneak Attack (once per encounter, granted, but we're only bringing up daily powers here) and Warlock's Curse.  So a theoretical critical hit from a Warlock could deal 70 (7d10 Hurl Through Hell) + 30 (5d6 sneak attack) + 18 (3d6 Warlock's Curse) + Constitution + Misc + Bonus damage from critical, for 118+mods, and any race or pact of Warlock can do this, not just a Bugbear Brutal Scoundrel Rogue.  If you work your way down the line, then a Warlock can use Hellfire Curse as well to deal 68+mods damage on a crit without sneak attack and 50+mods damage with Spiteful Darts and 58+mods damage with Dark Transport.

Secondly, if you're basing this on an FAQ ruling that says that you apply Enhancement bonuses from a Weapon to both Weapon attacks and Implement powers that use the Weapon as an Implement, that's a LONG way from Daggermaster's ability applying to Implement attacks that use a Dagger as an Implement.

You know, 120-odd damage seems pretty weak for level 29 as the top performance damage.  I mean, you're facing solo monsters with 10x that or more.  I expected more from a daily.  (And getting CA as a warlock isn't as easy as it is for a rogue - can't flank with a non-melee attack.)
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X-Codes

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Re: Warlock and Rogue: potential combination?
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2008, 04:23:45 AM »
Let me get this straight, you're arguing that Warlocks dealing more damage than Rogues thanks to an extremely tenuous CustServ ruling (whose credibility you yourself have attacked) is not broken because 120 damage is pretty weak for a level 29 power.

First off, it was 118 damage + mods which also didn't include the bonus damage on a critical hit that implements grant.  Even with a Pact Blade that's something in the neighborhood of 150 final damage.  Then, on top of that, the target is removed to a separate plane of existence for up to 4 rounds, depending on how long the Warlock maintains the power.  Then, when the target comes back, they are prone and stunned (save ends).

As for how hard it is for a Warlock to gain Combat Advantage, all that needs to be done is to Daze the target and then it gives CA to everyone.

Oh, and lets not forget, Solo Monsters are designed to take these hard hits, and really it is dangerous for them to do so.  If Orcus takes 150 damage from each of 5 party members, then he's suddenly Bloodied already in potentially a one-round span, not to mention the battery of conditions he is now invariably is suffering from.

Squirrelloid

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Re: Warlock and Rogue: potential combination?
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2008, 07:04:28 AM »
Let me get this straight, you're arguing that Warlocks dealing more damage than Rogues thanks to an extremely tenuous CustServ ruling (whose credibility you yourself have attacked) is not broken because 120 damage is pretty weak for a level 29 power.

First off, it was 118 damage + mods which also didn't include the bonus damage on a critical hit that implements grant.  Even with a Pact Blade that's something in the neighborhood of 150 final damage.  Then, on top of that, the target is removed to a separate plane of existence for up to 4 rounds, depending on how long the Warlock maintains the power.  Then, when the target comes back, they are prone and stunned (save ends).

As for how hard it is for a Warlock to gain Combat Advantage, all that needs to be done is to Daze the target and then it gives CA to everyone.

Oh, and lets not forget, Solo Monsters are designed to take these hard hits, and really it is dangerous for them to do so.  If Orcus takes 150 damage from each of 5 party members, then he's suddenly Bloodied already in potentially a one-round span, not to mention the battery of conditions he is now invariably is suffering from.

You do realize we're talking about a 1/20 chance vs. a 3/20 chance of this event, and not the impossibility of this at all? 

And we're talking about a class whose raison d'etre is to deal damage.  You're a striker, if you can't potentially do enough damage in one round to make an enemy sit up and take notice, you suck.  Period.  You're burning your best daily power, an encounter ability (multiclass sneak attack), and apparently we're comboing off another power use to achieve combat advantage.  And 17/20 times we do less damage or miss!  The expected DPR is much less than 150.

Not all the party is going to be strikers or you have other problems.  Non strikers should be dealing less damage.  Further, not all the party will be hitting.  And if everyone burns their best daily in round 1 of a fight I expect whatever they're targetting to be in a world of hurt afterward.  That's some serious resource expenditure on the part of the party and if its not rewarded then there's something wrong with the game.

Broken is achieving damage in excess of that at level 11 with encounter powers (ie, Blood Mage).  This is a combination of a power, a PP, a multiclass feat feature, and a particular implement type (dagger pact blade) with a top-tier 1/day power, and happens about 15% of the time.  Knocking off 1/10th of Orcus's hp sounds, if anything, a little lackluster.  I'm pretty sure Blade Cascade + Imperiling Strike, using the errataed version, does better than that.  Heck, a Minotaur Fighter with a maul can do max(14d8)+mods 10% of the time with a level 29 daily, which is 112 + mods, and could well include multi-rogue for SA, power attack, and so forth - passing 150 pretty handily.  And he's not even a striker.  So heaven forbid a striker using a number of abilities, feats, class features, and a top tier power manage to only slightly underperform a minotaur maul fighter.   :eh

(Even without SA, the maul fighter gets 112 + 6d12 (vicious maul) + str (9) + power attack (9) + choice of wisdom (pit fighter)/possibly con (if knocks prone, iron vanguard)/4 (kensei) + 6 enhancement = 179 average assuming kensei.  And I've left out things like weapon focus - you can probably add another 5-10 with feat choices)

Edit: I keep wanting to divide parts of my probabilities in half.  I think they're right now.  I must be tired, I can't add constants together.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2008, 07:13:54 AM by Squirrelloid »
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X-Codes

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Re: Warlock and Rogue: potential combination?
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2008, 10:17:59 AM »
I'm calling your logic-fael, Squirreloid.  You're trivializing the issue, not responding to my arguments, barely even reading each third word of my posts, and exhibiting blatant hypocrisy.

If you're trying to prove true the old adage about arguing on the internet, you have to actually argue first.  Starting with the assumption that you're right and therefore my posts are below your rank earns you bad karma, especially since this isn't even the first time I've called you on it.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 10:19:41 AM by X-Codes »

Fuzzy_Logic

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Re: Warlock and Rogue: potential combination?
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2008, 01:17:57 AM »
Unless there's a specific power combo you're aiming for, I don't see the point in mixing Warlock/Rogue. 

As a Rogue, you could just take ranged dagger powers instead of spells; as a warlock, your spells are really just as good as rogue powers, and there are several Close pwoers if you want to melee. 

Why mix two strikers?  You don't gain all that much, as far as I can see. 

Kuroimaken

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Re: Warlock and Rogue: potential combination?
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2008, 09:09:09 AM »
Quote
Unless there's a specific power combo you're aiming for, I don't see the point in mixing Warlock/Rogue.

As a Rogue, you could just take ranged dagger powers instead of spells; as a warlock, your spells are really just as good as rogue powers, and there are several Close pwoers if you want to melee.

Why mix two strikers?  You don't gain all that much, as far as I can see.

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AndyJames

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Re: Warlock and Rogue: potential combination?
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2008, 09:14:19 AM »
Sounds like someone with clocktower fantasies :P

Kuroimaken

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Re: Warlock and Rogue: potential combination?
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2008, 11:22:52 AM »
Quote
Sounds like someone with clocktower fantasies

Sorry, you lost me more than a blind man in a desert.
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AndyJames

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Re: Warlock and Rogue: potential combination?
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2008, 07:18:56 PM »
It's an allusion to murder by sniper. It is a nightmare scenario where some mentally unstable guy holes up in a high, out of the way place and plugs random passerbys with a rifle.

Imagine your Warlock in a town somwhere and does the whole thing with his EB :D

Kuroimaken

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Re: Warlock and Rogue: potential combination?
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2008, 08:27:39 PM »
Quote
It's an allusion to murder by sniper. It is a nightmare scenario where some mentally unstable guy holes up in a high, out of the way place and plugs random passerbys with a rifle.

Imagine your Warlock in a town somwhere and does the whole thing with his EB

Sounds like my idea of FUN!

Although 10 squares doesn't seem like a lot of range...
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

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