Author Topic: Fighter Fix Idea - Feat Master!  (Read 7518 times)

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oslecamo

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Fighter Fix Idea - Feat Master!
« on: April 29, 2011, 06:08:26 PM »
So with the last fighter discussion around, something ocurred to me. Most fighter fixes involve geting new abilities to the fighter, but then most people end up wondering "why not ToB class/psychic warrior then?".

The vanilla Fighter's theme after all is feats. So why not build around it I ask? Now somebody will scream "rargh feats aren't class features", but to those people I point the wizard, wich has no actual class features. A wizard just cast spells and gets some bonus feats. But he gets a damn lot of spells with little restrictions. And that's more than enough to put him at tier 1. So clearly what the Fighter needs is to be really good at geting feats. And sensing other people's feats. Then nullifying them.

So let's start filling all those empty fighter levels.

Brawn over Brains: Where others rely on fancy tutelage and natural talent, a Fighter compensates the lack of those things with hard work. At 3rd level the Fighter may ignore any skill points or ability score requisites on feats he picks. If a feat's effect would be based on a skill or ability score, the fighter may replace it by another skill or ability score of his choice.

comments
[spoiler]
Wizards can totally know all spells basing them solely on intelegence and spellcraft. Well why shouldn't the fighter be able to learn combat reflexes with his muscles and riding with intimidation ability then?
[/spoiler]

Sixth Sense:At 5th level a Fighter can evaluate an oponent's prowess with just a glance. The Fighter automatically knows all the feats of other creatures he can see whose CR is equal to his fighter level or lower. If they're higher CR, the Fighter must fight with them for a number of rounds equal to the CR-level diference to gain this benefit.

In addition, as an immediate action, the Fighter may nullify one feat one oponent has for 1 round by using his superior feat knowledge to counter them with minimal effort. The feat must belong to the fighter bonus feat list, and the oponent loses all benefits of the feat for 1 round. If the feat was a requisite for some prestige class or special ability the oponent has, it cannot use those special abilities while the feat is nullified, including special abilities from the prestige class. Oponents with the same number of fighter levels or higher than you are immune to this ability. You need to know your oponent's feats to use this ability.

comments
[spoiler]
So the wizard can identify spells and items with a glance? So it's only fair the fighter can do so as well in relation to feats. Identifying your oponent's feats is precious intel.

As a bonus and a way to use your swift/immediate action to remove the feat of an oponent. Making them lose all other related stuff may be a little too much, but I kinda wanted to make a big "screw you" sign to all the characters who claim they can take feat chains easily as well.
[/spoiler]

Improvise: A fighter can quickly adapt to any situation. At 7th level as an immediate action, they may gain any feat for wich they meet the requisites. This feat lasts for 1 round.

Comments
[spoiler]
As we reach higher levels I start to raise the stakes. Spammable self-heroics is pretty neat, and hopefully won't slow down the game as much as "replace X feats every ecounter" like was sugested here and there. Notice that since it burns your immediate action you can't use it with Sixth Sense's second ability on the same turn.
[/spoiler]

Feat Chainer: At 9th level, whenever the Fighter gains a feat that has another feat as requisite, he gains one extra feat. That extra feat cannot have other feats as requisites. This is ability is retroactive, so the Fighter gains the bonus for feats with other feats as requisites that he had already gained. This bonus doesn't apply to temporary feats like the ones gained from the heroics spell and Improvise, neither to retrained feats.

In addition, when using his Sixth Sense ability, the fighter may remove two feats from his oponent, and he can now remove any feat that is given as a bonus by any other class or prestige class. Plus the feats are nullified for 4 rounds instead of 1. Multiple uses of this ability on one oponent stack. The clause for not being able to use abilities that relied on the removed feats still applies, wich includes nullifying magic items crafted by the oponent if you removed the respective item creation feat. Spells prepared with metamagic can't be cast either.

Comments
[spoiler]
Quantity has a quality of his own, specially when it's stackable. This makes it easier to pick all those more situational non-feat chains that still have uses and you probably couldn't afford otherwise.

[/spoiler]

Impossible Feat: At 11th level, if some ability would specifically stop a fighter feat from doing anything at all in a situation it should, then it works normally instead.

Examples:
-An oponent has freedom of movement, a fighter with improved grapple can still grapple them just fine.
-An oponent casts wind wall, a fighter with archery feats can shoot arrows trough it just fine.
-An oponent uses an ability that inflicts a status whitout save. If the fighter has any save-boosting ability, he may roll a save to prevent the effect anyay. If he has boosts to diferent saves, he may choose wich one to use.
-An oponent is immune to fear. The fighter can still demoralize/shaken them if he has intimidate-boosting feats.

Comments
[spoiler]
This one could use a better wording, but I believe you get the idea. Wizard says "lolno" to something, then the fighter says "lolno" in return.
[/spoiler]

Combat Experience: At 13th level, when using his Sixth Sense ability, the fighter may remove three feats from his oponent, and he can now remove any feats, plus the feats are nullified for 1 minute. Multiple uses of this ability on one oponent stack. The clause for not being able to use abilities that relied on the removed feats still applies.

In addition, when using improvise, the Fighter now gains two extra feats instead of one.

Comments

[spoiler] Losing power attack is a major hit for other melees.  The wizard can't read the extra scrolls he wrote. The artificer's pimped gear all jams. No metamagic shenigans anymore.  Everybody says feats are too weak. Well I guess they won't mind losing them right?
[/spoiler]

Expanded Feats:
At 15th level, the fighter can count himself as having all the class abilities of a member of other class of same level as the fighter for purposes of qualifying for feats. So a fighter would count as having full Iniator level for Martial Study and meeting other maneuver requisites. He could learn warlock invocations with the Extra Invocation feat.

If he learns a metamagic feat, he may apply them to his attacks by taking a penalty on to-hit rolls equals equal to double the metamagic modifier. So a fighter with Still Spell could attack whitout moving by taking a -2 penalty to attacks for example.


Comments

[spoiler]
Another of the big strenghts of casters is the ability to blatantly steal abilities from other stuff, be it summoning/calling, mindraping slaves or polymorph/shapechance shenigans. So I guess its not asking too much the fighter can pick other people's feats.

[/spoiler]

Combat Master: At 17th level, when using his Sixth Sense ability, the Fighter may nullify four feats, plus he may target a number of creatures up to his fighter level and the feats are nullified for 1 hour. Multiple uses of this ability on one oponent stack. The clause for not being able to use abilities that relied on the removed feats still applies

In addition, when using improvise, the Fighter now gains four extra feats instead of two.


Comments

[spoiler]
Ok, I'm kinda running out of ideas here. Sue me.

[/spoiler]

Sacrifice Feat: At 19th level, the Fighter may supress any feat on himself for 1 minute as a free action to re-roll a 1d20 he just rolled after knowing the result. This ability can be used even on others turns, and multiple times in a single turn, while the fighter has un-supressed feats.

Comments

[spoiler]
And the almost-capstone, burn feats for re-rolls. Wich isn't that shabby since you can actually roll saves against no-save abilities now.
[/spoiler]

Toughts/comments welcome.

Prime32

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Re: Fighter Fix Idea - Feat Master!
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2011, 07:41:15 PM »
Maybe bring in the feats from Tome... based on your fighter level rather than your BAB.
Impossible Feat: At 11th level, if some ability would specifically stop a fighter feat from doing anything at all in a situation it should, then it works normally instead.

Examples:
-An oponent has freedom of movement, a fighter with improved grapple can still grapple them just fine.
-An oponent casts wind wall, a fighter with archery feats can shoot arrows trough it just fine.
-An oponent uses an ability that inflicts a status whitout save. If the fighter has any save-boosting ability, he may roll a save to prevent the effect anyay. If he has boosts to diferent saves.
-An oponent is immune to fear. The fighter can still demoralize/shaken them if he has intimidate-boosting feats.

Comments
[spoiler]
This one could use a better wording, but I believe you get the idea. Wizard says "lolno" to something, then the fighter says "lolno" in return.
[/spoiler]
Poor wording? Yes. The Dodge feat lets you dodge everything, and if you take "moving out of range" as an ability...
« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 07:43:52 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

SneeR

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Re: Fighter Fix Idea - Feat Master!
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2011, 03:14:15 AM »
Hehe, roll saves against things that don't allow them. Dragons would take this class just to get that ability. No more Shivering Touch, now, bitches!
But how would you know which save to use? I mean, do you allow a Will Save or a Fortitude Save against Shivering Touch if the fighter has both Iron Will and Great Fortitude?

I really like this fix, though. I can't say anyone has even taken quite this approach to the class.

SEAL OF APPROVAL: GRANTED!

The answer to everything:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
SneeR
[spoiler]
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
When another driver brandishes a holy symbol and begins glowing with divine light, seek cover or get spattered with zombie brains. I do not see what is so complicated about this.
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: Fighter Fix Idea - Feat Master!
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2011, 08:59:44 AM »
This is surprisingly interesting and effective. Things make intuitive sense and it establishes the Fighter as the Feat Master in a bold, unique way. The only thing I had a problem with was,

In addition, as an immediate action, the Fighter may nullify one feat one oponent has for 1 round by using his superior feat knowledge to counter them with minimal effort. The oponent loses all benefits of the feat for 1 round. If the removed feat was a requisite for other feats, the creature loses those feats as well for 1 round. If the feat was a requisite for some prestige class or special ability/item the oponent has, it cannot use those special abilities/items for 1 round, including special abilities from the prestige class. This includes magic items crafted by the oponent. Spells prepared with metamagic can't be cast either. Oponents with the same number of fighter levels or higher than you are immune to this ability.

which to me makes no sense at all. How is he countering an opponent's Improved Toughness? His Metamagic Thesis? His True Believer feat? This is clearly more of a "fuck you" mechanic than one that was well thought out or designed. I would limit his ability to wreck feats to those on bonus feats lists he has access to (meaning a straight Fighter could only nullify feats found on the Fighter Bonus Feats list while a multiclass Fighter/Wizard could nullify stuff on the Fighter list AND the Wizard list). At least that makes tons more sense. Oh, and get rid of all the overpowered nonsense about being able to strip someone of all of their ability to do anything other than auto-attack using nothing more than an immediate action and with absolutely no saving throw. Either do not allow the Fighter to nullify a feat that has other feats as prerequisites without first nullifying those feats, or allow the victim a saving throw to negate if the Fighter attempts to nullify a feat that would nullify other feats at the same time. With a bonus to their saving throw equal +1/additional feat negated beyond the first. Hell, force the Fighter to have first identified the creature's feats before he is able to use this effect too, that way he doesn't automatically completely destroy a creature that is by all rights a better warrior than he is.

EDIT: Basically the "nullify" feats ability needs to be nerfed pretty heavily. If only at first. I noticed that in the improvement to the effect it notes that the Fighter "can still affect each oponent only once at a time," but there isn't a limit one per customer clause in the original ability. I would suggest limiting the original nullify to being useable only after the Fighter has identified the feats of a creature, only able to nullify feats on the Fighter Bonus Feats list and without other feats as prerequisites, and allowing a saving throw to negate. Note, this doesn't specify a limit to once per creature, however, if the creature passes it's save it should be immune to the effect for 24 hours.

You can then use your later class features to eventually allow him to negate feats for longer than 1 round, allow him to negate feats not on the Fighter Bonus Feats list, and allow him to negate entire feat chains at once.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 10:44:59 AM by bkdubs123 »

skydragonknight

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Re: Fighter Fix Idea - Feat Master!
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2011, 10:58:27 AM »
So if you nullify the Incantrix's Iron Will feat...  :plotting
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

oslecamo

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Re: Fighter Fix Idea - Feat Master!
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2011, 04:15:02 PM »
Poor wording? Yes. The Dodge feat lets you dodge everything, and if you take "moving out of range" as an ability...

How exactly would Dodge allow you to dodge everything? At worst the bonus would always apply simply.

For the second well I guess there's common sense. If your oponent isn't whitin reach, of course you can't use it.

SneeR:I meant to put a comment about that, corrected now. If you have multiple boosted saves, you can pick wich one to use.

bkdubs123:Ah, now we're geting to the meat. Yes I suspected the ability to nullify feat chains could be too strong right away.

-To how he's countering them, I ask you, how did his oponent get the feat to begin with? Whatever means he used, the fighter knows how to counter them. The wizard wrote a thesis? Fighter can detect a flaw on the spell and disrupt it with a quick word. True believer? Fighter attacks his beliefs making him rage. Improved toughness? Just the other week you weren't that tough, so fighter knows your spots that are still softer. Now of course asking him to dip other classes to nullify them could be flavourfull, but honestly that's kinda "mundanes can't have nice things!". If the wizard can pimp himself into super melee whitout actually having melee, why can't the fighter pick some knowledge of magic whitout actually taking magic classes? Stop thinking rogue with sneak attack that needs a bunch of stuff to sneak attack undeads and constructs. Start thinking warblade with Iron Heart Surge that removes everything bad from himself from spells to poison to diseases and whatnot just by flexing his muscles.


-Second, even if you remove all the feats from an oponent of t3 or above, they're far from reduced to just full attacking. ToB will still have their base maneuvers and stances, they just can't power attack/shock trooper. Casters can still cast normal spells, they just can't rely on stashes of cheap scrolls and metamagic shenigans. The druid can still cast or turn himself into super animal, he just can't do both at the same time.

-Now I agree that removing all related feats right away may be a bit too much so I'll change that. Will also add the needing to know oponent feats clause. I'll not put a saving throw however as, again, his oponents still retain full class abilities. Dragons will stil fly and rain fiery death and mindflayers will still have several Will or Die and whatnot.

Also I didn't put the "only can affect each oponent once" on the first ability because it just lasts for 1 round and burns your swift/immediate action. You can't really get extra swift immediate actions as a fighter, and if you do, well, you deserve something to do with them.





Prime32

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Re: Fighter Fix Idea - Feat Master!
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2011, 04:19:44 PM »
For feat-nullifying, I would say the target is still treated as having the feat for the purposes of prerequisites. You might ask "What's the point of negating TWF when ITWF replaces its benefits anyway?", to which I say "just negate ITWF then".
Poor wording? Yes. The Dodge feat lets you dodge everything, and if you take "moving out of range" as an ability...

How exactly would Dodge allow you to dodge everything? At worst the bonus would always apply simply.

For the second well I guess there's common sense. If your oponent isn't whitin reach, of course you can't use it.
If your opponent has no mind, of course you can't intimidate them. If there's an obstacle in the way, of course you can't shoot arrows at them. Etc. Yet these were the examples you used.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 04:27:07 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

oslecamo

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Re: Fighter Fix Idea - Feat Master!
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2011, 04:28:12 PM »
If your opponent has no mind, of course you can't intimidate them. If there's an obstacle in the way, of course you can't shoot arrows at them. Etc. Yet these were the examples you used.

Not exactly. That vampire/lich clearly has a mind of his own.  Wind Wall isn't a solid obstacle, it just says "lol screw arrows but not the conjured orbs I'm shooting trough it!". Freedom of Movement says "lol your hands bounce out of me if you try to grab me but not for anything else". I would say that Impossible Feat actually applies common sense. If your non-magic fire orbs don't dissipate on the wind wall, then neither shall my arrows. If your equipment is still in your body, then it means stuff can still grab on you. If you can rationalize and think by yourself, then I can put fear in you.

EDIT:
For feat-nullifying, I would say the target is still treated as having the feat for the purposes of prerequisites. You might ask "What's the point of negating TWF when ITWF replaces its benefits anyway?", to which I say "just negate ITWF then".
Did that for when you first you get the ability. You still start nullifying feat chains by 13th level because really stuff starts geting really nasty around here and the fighter has to keep up. Just nullifying one attack/imposing a -2 penalty won't cut it by then.

bkdubs123

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Re: Fighter Fix Idea - Feat Master!
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2011, 04:43:31 PM »
Whatever means he used, the fighter knows how to counter them. The wizard wrote a thesis? Fighter can detect a flaw on the spell and disrupt it with a quick word. True believer? Fighter attacks his beliefs making him rage. Improved toughness? Just the other week you weren't that tough, so fighter knows your spots that are still softer.

I roll my eyes at this just as I roll my eyes at Iron Heart Surge auto-removing anything and everything that could be construed as a negative effect. Both are equally absurd.

Quote
Second, even if you remove all the feats from an oponent of t3 or above, they're far from reduced to just full attacking. ToB will still have their base maneuvers and stances, they just can't power attack/shock trooper. Casters can still cast normal spells, they just can't rely on stashes of cheap scrolls and metamagic shenigans. The druid can still cast or turn himself into super animal, he just can't do both at the same time.

This is true, I just think that the Fighter being able to nullify an opponent's innate toughness or spellcasting knowledge or whatever other non-martial ability, to start this class feature off, makes little to no sense. It is an ugly mark on an otherwise well-written Fighter-Fix.

Quote
Now I agree that removing all related feats right away may be a bit too much so I'll change that. Will also add the needing to know oponent feats clause. I'll not put a saving throw however as, again, his oponents still retain full class abilities. Dragons will stil fly and rain fiery death and mindflayers will still have several Will or Die and whatnot.

Seems fine. No saving throw makes sense now that you mention it. For some reason I keep thinking that he negates the feat for the rest of the encounter, even though I know it only says 1 round.

For the improvements, I'd lose the bit about only effecting an opponent once, but I'd also lose the ability to nullify whole handfuls of feats at a time as well. I would seriously start the ability at nullifying just Fighter feats. Then improve it at say, 9th, 13th, and 17th levels respectively. At 9th he can nullify two feats at a time and can nullify any feat that appears on any class's bonus feats list. Feats remain nullified for 1d4+1 rounds. At 13th he can nullify three feats at a time and can nullify any feat at all. Feats remain nullified for 1 minute. At 17th level he can nullify four feats at a time and he can nullify a feat without first nullifying its prerequisites. Feats remain nullified for 1 hour.


Prime32

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Re: Fighter Fix Idea - Feat Master!
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2011, 05:40:11 PM »
Quote
Second, even if you remove all the feats from an oponent of t3 or above, they're far from reduced to just full attacking. ToB will still have their base maneuvers and stances, they just can't power attack/shock trooper. Casters can still cast normal spells, they just can't rely on stashes of cheap scrolls and metamagic shenigans. The druid can still cast or turn himself into super animal, he just can't do both at the same time.

This is true, I just think that the Fighter being able to nullify an opponent's innate toughness or spellcasting knowledge or whatever other non-martial ability, to start this class feature off, makes little to no sense. It is an ugly mark on an otherwise well-written Fighter-Fix.
Whenever they cast spells they move their hands in a certain way, so you injure or obstruct their hands. They have a certain stance which helps them take hits, so you keep them off-balance. Every trick has a tell.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 05:46:24 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: Fighter Fix Idea - Feat Master!
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2011, 05:46:29 PM »
Quote
Second, even if you remove all the feats from an oponent of t3 or above, they're far from reduced to just full attacking. ToB will still have their base maneuvers and stances, they just can't power attack/shock trooper. Casters can still cast normal spells, they just can't rely on stashes of cheap scrolls and metamagic shenigans. The druid can still cast or turn himself into super animal, he just can't do both at the same time.

This is true, I just think that the Fighter being able to nullify an opponent's innate toughness or spellcasting knowledge or whatever other non-martial ability, to start this class feature off, makes little to no sense. It is an ugly mark on an otherwise well-written Fighter-Fix.
Whenever they cast spells they move their hands in a certain way, so you injure their hands. They have a certain stance which helps them take hits, so you keep them off-balance. Every trick has a tell.

Seriously, not every feat is a trick.

And even if every feat was a trick, now we're supposed to accept that the Fighter suddenly knows every tell to every trick that's ever existed, but he has no ability to reproduce any of those tricks?

Prime32

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Re: Fighter Fix Idea - Feat Master!
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2011, 05:48:37 PM »
Seriously, not every feat is a trick.

And even if every feat was a trick, now we're supposed to accept that the Fighter suddenly knows every tell to every trick that's ever existed, but he has no ability to reproduce any of those tricks?
He hasn't learned them all off, but he can work them out from observation. That's his entire gimmick - being specialised in the ways of combat beyond any other class.

Also, he can reproduce those tricks - that's what the other class features are for. However, famous Bruce Lee quote. Thousand kicks, etc. It's not always a good idea.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 05:52:51 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: Fighter Fix Idea - Feat Master!
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2011, 06:11:18 PM »
That's his entire gimmick - being specialised in the ways of combat beyond any other class.

Right. Which is why negating combat related feats makes perfect sense and why negating the Eschew Materials feat makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Some feats might be combat tricks. Many however are not. I'm even compromising my stance by suggesting that the Fighter get the ability to negate someone's Great Fortitude or Wild Cohort feats at higher levels even though I personally think that makes no sense.

EDIT: And while we're on the subject, this, "wich includes nullifying magic items crafted by the oponent if you removed the respective item creation feat" makes less than no sense. Fighter says, "Oh, nice flaming sword you've got there. Your Wizard crafted it, I know," and suddenly the sword is no longer magic. That. Is. Stupid.

The ability is just a "fuck you" ability not one that is written to make sense for a Fighter to have. Note, that I'm not saying it's too powerful, that's a whole other discussion entire. It just doesn't make any sense, and when the rest of this Fighter's class features were clearly written with some thought in mind, and this one feature is obviously just written to say "FUCK YOU WIZARD" it looks really, really ugly to me.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 06:19:38 PM by bkdubs123 »

altpersona

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Re: Fighter Fix Idea - Feat Master!
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2011, 06:30:57 PM »
love the meta magiced combat.

still attacks, fell attacks, eschew materials attacks, deathfrost - lord of the uttercold - evenerate -maximixed -reach attack.

The goal of power is power. - idk
We are not descended from fearful men. - Murrow

The Final Countdown is now stuck in your head.

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Prime32

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Re: Fighter Fix Idea - Feat Master!
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2011, 06:43:45 PM »
That's his entire gimmick - being specialised in the ways of combat beyond any other class.

Right. Which is why negating combat related feats makes perfect sense and why negating the Eschew Materials feat makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
I don't know, I can easily see that happening in a setting like Fullmetal Alchemist, where using alchemy without a circle is a learned skill and requires you to clap your hands. In fact, some trained mundanes have been able to stop the protagonist from clapping his hands in a fight, forcing him to use the normal methods.
The rulebooks don't give a lot of description on what exactly a spellcaster is doing when they cast a spell, so it's not hard to imagine similar openings.

EDIT:
Some feats might be combat tricks. Many however are not. I'm even compromising my stance by suggesting that the Fighter get the ability to negate someone's Great Fortitude or Wild Cohort feats at higher levels even though I personally think that makes no sense.
The loremaster can explicitly learn Great Fortitude as a trick. I'd say it's just a matter of inflicting pain. As for Wild Cohort, it doesn't actually grant the target any abilities - however, I'd let someone disrupt Attain Familiar to stop the target from sharing spells without affecting the familiar itself.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 06:52:25 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: Fighter Fix Idea - Feat Master!
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2011, 06:50:20 PM »
That's his entire gimmick - being specialised in the ways of combat beyond any other class.

Right. Which is why negating combat related feats makes perfect sense and why negating the Eschew Materials feat makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
I don't know, I can easily see that happening in a setting like Fullmetal Alchemist, where using alchemy without a circle is a learned skill and requires you to clap your hands. In fact, some trained mundanes have been able to stop the protagonist from clapping his hands in a fight, forcing him to use the normal methods.
The rulebooks don't give a lot of description on what exactly a spellcaster is doing when they cast a spell, so it's not hard to imagine similar openings.

When the player has to come up with an elaborate, off-the-cuff explanation for his class feature everytime he does it that either relies on fluff given by the DM or fluff made the fuck up by said player, that class feature is poorly written. That's just my opinion, but it's also true. :fu

oslecamo

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Re: Fighter Fix Idea - Feat Master!
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2011, 07:10:36 PM »
EDIT: And while we're on the subject, this, "wich includes nullifying magic items crafted by the oponent if you removed the respective item creation feat" makes less than no sense. Fighter says, "Oh, nice flaming sword you've got there. Your Wizard crafted it, I know," and suddenly the sword is no longer magic. That. Is. Stupid.
My idea was more: "Oh, nice flaming sword you've got there. Channeled by efreeti runes carved with ruby powder right? Interesting trivia, you knew a bit of water mixed with a pinch of silver powder can nullify them for one minute? Here, let me show you."


The magic item works by MAGIC. And magic always have random arbitary rules.  Magic is nonlogic and in D&D can do pretty much anything the writers will it to do. Thus making sense won't be enough to beat it, and the fighter has to at some point step up the plate and show he can break some rules as well.


The ability is just a "fuck you" ability not one that is written to make sense for a Fighter to have. Note, that I'm not saying it's too powerful, that's a whole other discussion entire. It just doesn't make any sense, and when the rest of this Fighter's class features were clearly written with some thought in mind, and this one feature is obviously just written to say "FUCK YOU WIZARD" it looks really, really ugly to me.

So why can casters go all "FUCK YOU UNIVERSE" with their magic? They make stuff happen by singing and waving their hands and throwing random stuff around.

bkdubs123

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Re: Fighter Fix Idea - Feat Master!
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2011, 07:48:05 PM »
EDIT: And while we're on the subject, this, "wich includes nullifying magic items crafted by the oponent if you removed the respective item creation feat" makes less than no sense. Fighter says, "Oh, nice flaming sword you've got there. Your Wizard crafted it, I know," and suddenly the sword is no longer magic. That. Is. Stupid.
My idea was more: "Oh, nice flaming sword you've got there. Channeled by efreeti runes carved with ruby powder right? Interesting trivia, you knew a bit of water mixed with a pinch of silver powder can nullify them for one minute? Here, let me show you."

Nice magical tea party there.

Quote
The magic item works by MAGIC. And magic always have random arbitary rules.  Magic is nonlogic and in D&D can do pretty much anything the writers will it to do. Thus making sense won't be enough to beat it[...]

Let me just stop you there, because you're making my point for me. Designing class features that make sense isn't as important to you as designing class features that beat magic. There, I you said it.

Quote
So why can casters go all "FUCK YOU UNIVERSE" with their magic? They make stuff happen by singing and waving their hands and throwing random stuff around.

You are trying to justify an Extraordinary class feature by saying that every time you use it you have to come up with some asspulled "reasonable" explanation as to how and why it works. Your above asspulled explanation isn't even good enough because it not only should it require material components but more effort than simply spending an immediate action from 100ft away.

Casters can say fuck you to the universe because their abilities are magic, and thus operate under completely different rules. You are giving the Fighter a magical spell called Negation, with a range equal to line of sight, useable at-will, that allows him to cause creatures to lose their feats with no ability to resist simply because the Fighter wills it to be so. That's magic. But you want it to be Extraordinary.

Try harder.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 08:05:35 PM by bkdubs123 »

skydragonknight

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Re: Fighter Fix Idea - Feat Master!
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2011, 08:22:20 PM »
Repeating myself in a more serious tone...as written an Incantrix who loses Iron Will loses all his Incantrix class features plus ten levels of spell casting. Is this your intent?
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.