Author Topic: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB  (Read 30775 times)

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JaronK

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #100 on: May 08, 2011, 04:20:01 AM »
What do you mean?  It's a weapon, and it's a magical enhancement to the weapon, and it's in the magic items section so it should apply all the same rules as normal...

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spacemonkey555

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #101 on: May 08, 2011, 06:06:10 AM »
The intelligent item thing requires a rule stating that adding intelligence to an item (or with one already intelligent) counts as a 'weapon enhancement'.

Is there such a rule?

You also can't add intelligence to expendable items, but that's not stopping anyone.

JaronK

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #102 on: May 08, 2011, 07:42:38 AM »
I have to wonder if this counts as "expendable."  That usually means the magic in it can be used up, which isn't the case here... here it's just the item could break if used improperly.  I mean, I don't think anyone would have a problem with someone making a +1 Stygian Ice Longsword intelligent, and that would self destruct pretty quickly if you didn't keep it in a nice Blue Ice sheath.

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spacemonkey555

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #103 on: May 08, 2011, 09:02:33 AM »
I have to wonder if this counts as "expendable."  That usually means the magic in it can be used up, which isn't the case here... here it's just the item could break if used improperly.  I mean, I don't think anyone would have a problem with someone making a +1 Stygian Ice Longsword intelligent, and that would self destruct pretty quickly if you didn't keep it in a nice Blue Ice sheath.

JaronK

Yes, something that is destroyed when it is used is expendable, and the item "breaks" if used properly. It is your usage that is improper, not the intended use. Your language is also improper. Ammunition does not break, ammunition is destroyed and no longer usable, per the MIC, and is simply destroyed per the DMG and PHB. Usage as an improvised melee weapon is legal in some cases, but it is an unsupported assumption that any magic would activate, and the ammunition will still be destroyed in any case. Aurorum tricks don't work, imo, only sundered items can be restored, and for an item to be sundered it specifically has to be held by an opponent per the phb. Dictionary sundering and dnd 3.5 sundering are 2 different things, the dictionary doesn't apply since the phb defines sundering.

JaronK

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #104 on: May 08, 2011, 09:27:02 AM »
But "expendable" means a very specific thing in D&D.  It means the magic is used up, such as a charged item that can run out of charges.  Ammo follows a different set of rules which is similar, but not the same (for example, if you miss you can use it again 50% of the time).

This is especially the case when we're talking about items we have no intention of every "using up" such as a Shuriken we intend to hold in hand and never throw.

Right now you're trying to use an overly literal interpretation of breakage vs sundering to claim one thing doesn't work, and then refusing to use the same exactness when talking about "expendable."  Heck, breakage and sundering follow the exact same rules (and mean the same thing) but "expendable" and the ammunition rules aren't the same (the aformentioned 50% chance of using it again when you missed vs always using up a charge, and the fact that most of these uses can never use the item up)... and yet you're claiming breaking and sundering aren't the same but ammunition and expendable are?

JaronK
« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 09:39:30 AM by JaronK »

Solo

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #105 on: May 08, 2011, 09:29:25 AM »
Quote
Shuriken of the Duelist:  A +5 Parrying Displacement Defending Shuriken of Initiative and Warning makes a great offhand item for a one handed melee character.  +6 AC, +1 to all saves, and 50% miss chance, along with +7 initiative?  Yeah, I'll take it.  It's around 6kgp.
Stick a wand chamber in that so you can put a wand of nerveskitter in your shuriken.

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spacemonkey555

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #106 on: May 08, 2011, 11:23:48 AM »
But "expendable" means a very specific thing in D&D.  It means the magic is used up, such as a charged item that can run out of charges.  Ammo follows a different set of rules which is similar, but not the same (for example, if you miss you can use it again 50% of the time).

This is especially the case when we're talking about items we have no intention of every "using up" such as a Shuriken we intend to hold in hand and never throw.

Right now you're trying to use an overly literal interpretation of breakage vs sundering to claim one thing doesn't work, and then refusing to use the same exactness when talking about "expendable."  Heck, breakage and sundering follow the exact same rules (and mean the same thing) but "expendable" and the ammunition rules aren't the same (the aformentioned 50% chance of using it again when you missed vs always using up a charge, and the fact that most of these uses can never use the item up)... and yet you're claiming breaking and sundering aren't the same but ammunition and expendable are?

JaronK

There's no point in debating this with you, your intent is to disregard the rules illogically. You know exactly what expendable means and you know that the rules on magic ammo make ammunition expendable. You know there's no special "expendable" rule that excludes ammunition, but there is a special "sunder" rule that specifically describes what sundering is. I could argue for 3 weeks and not make any headway. Instead I'll quote the most relevant rule you're ignoring.

Quote

Bastian

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #107 on: May 08, 2011, 03:18:27 PM »
The intelligent item thing requires a rule stating that adding intelligence to an item (or with one already intelligent) counts as a 'weapon enhancement'.

Is there such a rule?
You're going to have to be a little more specific, where is the rule that requires that. Furthermore, unless you are claiming DnD has a different meaning for "weapon enhancement," adding anything that would make it more effective is enhancing it.

Bastian

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #108 on: May 08, 2011, 03:25:19 PM »
There's no point in debating this with you, your intent is to disregard the rules illogically. You know exactly what expendable means and you know that the rules on magic ammo make ammunition expendable. You know there's no special "expendable" rule that excludes ammunition, but there is a special "sunder" rule that specifically describes what sundering is. I could argue for 3 weeks and not make any headway. Instead I'll quote the most relevant rule you're ignoring.

Quote
So what. Everything in the rules is DM fiat.

oslecamo

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #109 on: May 08, 2011, 04:04:23 PM »
Since these are easily cheap enough for most folks to craft themselves, you could have a bunch of intelligent items all with the same goal of your choosing (an obvious purpose might be "help its owner rise to power" or something).  

You're forgeting one key intelegent item rules:

No intelligent item wants to share its wielder with others. An intelligent item is aware of the presence of any other intelligent item within 60 feet, and most intelligent items try their best to mislead or distract their host so that she ignores or destroys the rival.


So no, intelegent items are the last thing you'll ever see doing an harmonious hive mind. They're not devout slaves that lick their master's boots and play nice with each other all the time. They're proud beings, they like being on top, and and they will not share it with anyone or anything else.

spacemonkey555

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #110 on: May 08, 2011, 04:13:39 PM »
The intelligent item thing requires a rule stating that adding intelligence to an item (or with one already intelligent) counts as a 'weapon enhancement'.

Is there such a rule?
You're going to have to be a little more specific, where is the rule that requires that. Furthermore, unless you are claiming DnD has a different meaning for "weapon enhancement," adding anything that would make it more effective is enhancing it.

Maybe you should read the rules on intelligent items, the price is fixed and completely unrelated to the base magic item you add the intelligence to. On top of that, you don't pick the powers added when you add the intelligence, they're rolled randomly.

Bastian

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #111 on: May 08, 2011, 05:16:39 PM »
The intelligent item thing requires a rule stating that adding intelligence to an item (or with one already intelligent) counts as a 'weapon enhancement'.

Is there such a rule?
You're going to have to be a little more specific, where is the rule that requires that. Furthermore, unless you are claiming DnD has a different meaning for "weapon enhancement," adding anything that would make it more effective is enhancing it.

Maybe you should read the rules on intelligent items, the price is fixed and completely unrelated to the base magic item you add the intelligence to. On top of that, you don't pick the powers added when you add the intelligence, they're rolled randomly.
Did you read my post at all? Because your response had nothing to do with what I was saying.

Eldritch_Lord

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #112 on: May 08, 2011, 05:59:19 PM »
The exact rules quote for the expendability of intelligent items is the following:
Quote from: SRD
Only permanent magic items (as opposed to single-use items or those with charges) can be intelligent. (This means that potions, scrolls, and wands, among other items, are never intelligent.)

Ammunition doesn't count as "single-use" under this definition (since, as already noted, you have a 50% chance to recover nonmagical ammo, and several kinds of magical ammo aren't destroyed on a hit or miss), that's referring only to potion, scrolls, and other items where the magic itself is single-use.

spacemonkey555

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #113 on: May 08, 2011, 06:52:05 PM »
The intelligent item thing requires a rule stating that adding intelligence to an item (or with one already intelligent) counts as a 'weapon enhancement'.

Is there such a rule?
You're going to have to be a little more specific, where is the rule that requires that. Furthermore, unless you are claiming DnD has a different meaning for "weapon enhancement," adding anything that would make it more effective is enhancing it.

Maybe you should read the rules on intelligent items, the price is fixed and completely unrelated to the base magic item you add the intelligence to. On top of that, you don't pick the powers added when you add the intelligence, they're rolled randomly.
Did you read my post at all? Because your response had nothing to do with what I was saying.

The dmg ammo discount is on weapon special abilities and enhancement bonuses only, I wrongly assumed you had read and understood the rules, and could understand that intelligent magic items have their own pricing rules. I apologize for overestimating you. Instead of quoting most of the dmg to you I'm just gonna suggest you go read the rules you're arguing about. The second sentence did have nothing to do with you, sorry if that confused you.

Bastian

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #114 on: May 08, 2011, 07:30:11 PM »
The intelligent item thing requires a rule stating that adding intelligence to an item (or with one already intelligent) counts as a 'weapon enhancement'.

Is there such a rule?
You're going to have to be a little more specific, where is the rule that requires that. Furthermore, unless you are claiming DnD has a different meaning for "weapon enhancement," adding anything that would make it more effective is enhancing it.

Maybe you should read the rules on intelligent items, the price is fixed and completely unrelated to the base magic item you add the intelligence to. On top of that, you don't pick the powers added when you add the intelligence, they're rolled randomly.
Did you read my post at all? Because your response had nothing to do with what I was saying.

The dmg ammo discount is on weapon special abilities and enhancement bonuses only, I wrongly assumed you had read and understood the rules, and could understand that intelligent magic items have their own pricing rules. I apologize for overestimating you. Instead of quoting most of the dmg to you I'm just gonna suggest you go read the rules you're arguing about. The second sentence did have nothing to do with you, sorry if that confused you.
And I wrongly assumed you would bothered stop being an idiot and go back and actually read my post when I requested you do so since the only thing I was talking in my original post was the fact that the unless DnD had its own definition for 'weapon enhancement' (as opposed to say enhancement bonuses), adding intelligence qualifies since it makes so it is better at the task. Not once did I mention discounts or anything else. :rollseyes

spacemonkey555

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #115 on: May 08, 2011, 07:40:37 PM »
The intelligent item thing requires a rule stating that adding intelligence to an item (or with one already intelligent) counts as a 'weapon enhancement'.

Is there such a rule?
You're going to have to be a little more specific, where is the rule that requires that. Furthermore, unless you are claiming DnD has a different meaning for "weapon enhancement," adding anything that would make it more effective is enhancing it.

Maybe you should read the rules on intelligent items, the price is fixed and completely unrelated to the base magic item you add the intelligence to. On top of that, you don't pick the powers added when you add the intelligence, they're rolled randomly.
Did you read my post at all? Because your response had nothing to do with what I was saying.

The dmg ammo discount is on weapon special abilities and enhancement bonuses only, I wrongly assumed you had read and understood the rules, and could understand that intelligent magic items have their own pricing rules. I apologize for overestimating you. Instead of quoting most of the dmg to you I'm just gonna suggest you go read the rules you're arguing about. The second sentence did have nothing to do with you, sorry if that confused you.
And I wrongly assumed you would bothered stop being an idiot and go back and actually read my post when I requested you do so since the only thing I was talking in my original post was the fact that the unless DnD had its own definition for 'weapon enhancement' (as opposed to say enhancement bonuses), adding intelligence qualifies since it makes so it is better at the task. Not once did I mention discounts or anything else. :rollseyes

Here's a hint, sparky, the person you were responding to meant special ability, which people often refer to as weapon enhancements since they're priced as enhancement bonuses. Both enhancement bonuses and weapon special abilities are very specific things that have nothing to do with intelligent items or intelligent item pricing. This would be obvious if you read the rules.

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #116 on: May 08, 2011, 07:47:50 PM »
Stick a wand chamber in that so you can put a wand of nerveskitter in your shuriken.
So...this?



I know that'd get on MY nerves pretty damned quick.
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Bastian

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #117 on: May 08, 2011, 09:14:47 PM »
The intelligent item thing requires a rule stating that adding intelligence to an item (or with one already intelligent) counts as a 'weapon enhancement'.

Is there such a rule?
You're going to have to be a little more specific, where is the rule that requires that. Furthermore, unless you are claiming DnD has a different meaning for "weapon enhancement," adding anything that would make it more effective is enhancing it.

Maybe you should read the rules on intelligent items, the price is fixed and completely unrelated to the base magic item you add the intelligence to. On top of that, you don't pick the powers added when you add the intelligence, they're rolled randomly.
Did you read my post at all? Because your response had nothing to do with what I was saying.

The dmg ammo discount is on weapon special abilities and enhancement bonuses only, I wrongly assumed you had read and understood the rules, and could understand that intelligent magic items have their own pricing rules. I apologize for overestimating you. Instead of quoting most of the dmg to you I'm just gonna suggest you go read the rules you're arguing about. The second sentence did have nothing to do with you, sorry if that confused you.
And I wrongly assumed you would bothered stop being an idiot and go back and actually read my post when I requested you do so since the only thing I was talking in my original post was the fact that the unless DnD had its own definition for 'weapon enhancement' (as opposed to say enhancement bonuses), adding intelligence qualifies since it makes so it is better at the task. Not once did I mention discounts or anything else. :rollseyes

Here's a hint, sparky, the person you were responding to meant special ability, which people often refer to as weapon enhancements since they're priced as enhancement bonuses. Both enhancement bonuses and weapon special abilities are very specific things that have nothing to do with intelligent items or intelligent item pricing. This would be obvious if you read the rules.
It doesn't matter what that person thought they meant, it matters what the rules they are quoting actually said. Also, I seriously doubt your interpretation of what they are saying considering how good at interpreting you have shown yourself to be.

Furthermore, if you bothered to read what I wrote I made no definitive claims beyond asserting my possession of a dictionary simply saying that "UNLESS you are claiming DnD has a different meaning for 'weapon enhancement,' adding anything that would make it more effective is enhancing it" and you responded with random bullshit completely unrelated to what I was saying.

Also did you just call me sparky?  :lmao
« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 09:33:45 PM by Bastian »

spacemonkey555

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #118 on: May 08, 2011, 10:26:44 PM »
It doesn't matter what that person thought they meant, it matters what the rules they are quoting actually said. Also, I seriously doubt your interpretation of what they are saying considering how good at interpreting you have shown yourself to be.

Furthermore, if you bothered to read what I wrote I made no definitive claims beyond asserting my possession of a dictionary simply saying that "UNLESS you are claiming DnD has a different meaning for 'weapon enhancement,' adding anything that would make it more effective is enhancing it" and you responded with random bullshit completely unrelated to what I was saying.

Also did you just call me sparky?  :lmao

If you can't figure out what someone was referring to when they said "weapon enhancement" in the context given you aren't worth debating. You seem to be here to troll, since you took a position directly opposite the raw concerning the question you tried to answer.

Bastian

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #119 on: May 08, 2011, 10:40:07 PM »
It doesn't matter what that person thought they meant, it matters what the rules they are quoting actually said. Also, I seriously doubt your interpretation of what they are saying considering how good at interpreting you have shown yourself to be.

Furthermore, if you bothered to read what I wrote I made no definitive claims beyond asserting my possession of a dictionary simply saying that "UNLESS you are claiming DnD has a different meaning for 'weapon enhancement,' adding anything that would make it more effective is enhancing it" and you responded with random bullshit completely unrelated to what I was saying.

Also did you just call me sparky?  :lmao

If you can't figure out what someone was referring to when they said "weapon enhancement" in the context given you aren't worth debating. You seem to be here to troll, since you took a position directly opposite the raw concerning the question you tried to answer.
Dear moron,
They weren't asserting one meaning to the rules, they were quoting the rules while leaving it open to interpretation (and asking a question about it) and I was interpreting it. If you can't figure that out, we have nothing to talk about.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 10:50:57 PM by Bastian »