What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?

[skydragonknight]

This is a VERY rough idea, and the formatting is atrocious. Grammar is also mediocre since I am basically "thinking out loud". My apologies for that. But it should give you an approximation of a Fighter that is more versatile, still does Fightery things and balances the feats everyone can take with unique and (hopefully) useful class features.

Idea: Why don't we go with the theme of combat styles, rolling the Ranger and Fighter into one class which eventually gets three combat styles of the players' choice (which can be retrained while gaining a level), and make the Ranger an ACF of the Fighter who gets 2 combat style choices which accumulate abilities a level behind, but in exchange for a more useful skill set and an animal buddy who conveniently doesn't suck?

Also, the action penalties for changing what weapons you're using/how you're using them are reduced to a simple swift action from a class feature called "Weapon Swap" for a lack of a better name. So one round you're an archer. The next you're a sword-and-board tank ready to take a hit for the spellcaster. The next you're the guy with the spiked chain keeping the enemy at bay. You're the god-damned Fighter.

Rationale: Every Fighter as-is has to pigeon-hole themselves into one style, maybe two, in order to achieve maximum effect. So let's make it easy, give them most of the absolutely-required feats for free and toss in unique class features to boot. Add in the ability to retool the build at level up to allow you to adjust your role(s) if your party members change.

Combat Styles:
[spoiler]Every combat style either gives the "must have" feats such as point blank/precise shot or grants an even better version of the feat for free, thus killing the feat tax. Probably a limit of two free feats per style, maybe three for the really feat intensive ones like archery. Also, as mentioned above, at every level you may swap any one combat style (or possibly any number of them...haven't decided) for another one.

Random thought: Maybe lose your styles if you gain the ability to cast spells of a level higher than your Fighter class level. That's more a thematic option though and does nothing to actually improve the class, only to limit Gishing. Probably wouldn't be in default version.

Styles and thoughts on unique class features:
1 handed* (Expert at techniques such as disarming and feinting. At higher levels foes are dazed when you successfully feint. Extra damage against foes you feint. Attack of opportunities against foes who miss you. Other stuff.)

Sword and Board (Defensive techniques: improved AC/saves. Ability to soak any form of hit point damage, like a delayed damage pool but only half is converted to hit point damage. Able to as an immediate action or in place of an attack next turn(expend from lowest iterative to highest) perform a jump-and-cover maneuver to block line of effect and take a hit (even targeted spells if they require LoE) for a comrade any distance within your movement speed. Gains bonus on attack and damage based on damage in delayed damage/damage soak pool.)

*With a shield, you may forego the shield bonus and the Sword and Board abilities to use the one-handed style as a swift action. Another swift action to resume using your shield. This is part of the Weapon Swap class feature.

2 handed: power (while any 2-hander can do, cannot be combined with control simultaneously. power attack, abilities related to charging/movement like avoiding AoOs or difficult terrain while charging. Ability to knock foes prone or backwards after successful power attack)

2 handed: control* (focus on using reach weapons for a radius of control. Casting defensively not effective unless they're 4 levels higher. Abilities to hinder/prevent movement as well as additional bonuses while flanking or some other useful thing).

*Reach weapons can be used to gain the effects of the power style for a round as a swift action. As a swift action you resume your use of the control style. This is part of the weapon swap class feature

Twin melee (lesser TWF penalties and full strength or dexterity-based damage on each weapon, even if light. Additional attacks after movement...though still less than full attack...maybe an upgrade ability to double move and full attack. Rend for bonus damage. Whatever else fits)

Ranged: thrown (Increased range and greater carrying capacity. Pretty much anything from Master Thrower could be ported here. Additional attacks, via TWF or not. Bonus damage/effects based on consecutive successful attacks.)

Ranged: Projectile (Standard archery: huge focus on accuracy. Gain the Spot skill and half the distance penalty on spot checks. Ability to 'snipe' ala Mustadio to impose penalties on enemies' attack rolls, movement speed and other debuffs-we-can-rationalize while dealing normal damage)[/spoiler]

Sample class structure-

[spoiler]Fighter:
1 1st Combat Style- get the "must have" feats or a better version.

1 Weapon swap: can swap items in two hands for those available as a swift action or use items in hand differently. This allows you to effectively change your combat role once a turn and assume a new style. Only one style may be utilized a turn.

2,6,10,14,18 Bonus Feats- Retrainable at the same time you can swap a combat style at level up. You get the "must haves" from your style, so these are the interesting feats towards the middle/end of a feat chain. The feats themselves can be made to suck less.

3 7 11 15 19 Unique abilities that improve your combat styles. Each style has a list of abilities, the more powerful ones having level prerequisites(probably a couple level 11 and one level 15 in each style).

5 2nd Combat style - gain "must have" feats and select style abilities for a second style. You may only utilize one style at a time.

10 3rd Combat style  gain "must have" feats and select style abilities for a third style. You may only utilize one style at a time.

Above 10...tough to give level appropriate abilities. Useful immunities based on what styles you have? Always active, even if using another style's abilities that round.

Afterthought: High GP cost to retool gear...Switching combat styles at a level up can break the bank. Fix: Reduce crafting time, allow Fighter to craft, and let the xp/gp cost of the old items contribute towards the new one(s).[/spoiler]

[Saxony]

Rejakor, I'm frustrated PHB Fighters are not badass. I want them to be badass. I'm less frustrated than you, but I still feel the same way. We shouldn't have to go to Tome of Battle (or where ever) to find a competent fantasy hero combatant class. It should be in the PHB. We're all agreed here.

The Fighter, as written, is not badass. I know this, you know this. You want the Fighter to be cool, and I'm cool with that. Why not? Fighters are awesome. I want my Fantasy Hero Combatant just like you do. But the Fighter, as written, is Soldier Dude. I wish the Fighter was actually Mythological Hero of Legend or even Fantasy Hero Combatant or the Sword from Sword and Sorcery, but he's really just Soldier Dude. As written.

I keep saying "As written". Meaning I am making a statement about the actual text in the actual PHB, not about what the Fighter should be or how it could be better. I am speaking how the Fighter is.

This thread asks us "What's necessary to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?".

The Fighter is so not Tier 3 that we can't make the Fighter Tier 3 without making something that is unrecognizable as the Fighter. And if you want to make Mythological Hero of Legend or even Plucky Fantasy Hero Guy, go right ahead! I said your Goddamn Fighter class could be quite good and I wasn't just being nice. But it would have zero relation to what is called the Fighter in the PHB because that Fighter is really just Soldier Dude and any class which dares to become something more than a Tier 70 gygaxian chew toy dependent on DM intervention to stay relevant just wouldn't be Soldier Dude any more.

Are we cool, Rejakor?

[Rejakor]

@ Unbeliever;  Not ONLY should a goddamn fighter not be using a spell/maneuver/delicious cake resource system, he should ALSO not have that kind of 'maneuver expended' fluff.  I intentionally didn't use per encounter or per day terminology wherever possible in that writeup I did earlier SPECIFICALLY because of this.

People seem to like the HP as a resource, although i'm sure if I wrote a fighter with more hp-using abilities and gave it slow (1hp/rnd, more sometimes) fast-healing (the only way to do it without making a pocket cleric mandatory for all fighters ever), people would scream overpowered etc, same way they did for the warlock (the effin' warlock).

The fighter I wrote up had essentially four different kinds of abilities;

1.  Immunities.  He was immune to some stuff, which was ofc fluffed as just being hardy or using fightin' tricks to block it with his shovel or something.

2.  Swift or immediate action recoveries.  Turning stuff off, or doing stuff, or removing conditions, as a swift or immediate action.  At like level 8 or something, the fighter gets 2 swift actions, cause by then he should have enough stuff that he needs two.

3.  Extra actions and beating on people.  Basic shit he needs in order to be able to do combat(hp damage, mobility) better than the Warrior, which is an NPC class and should be worse than him at doing combat.

4.  Special attacks.  Because we are sick of the fighter doing nothing but AC vs HP.  He needs some offensive options.

Sidenote:  Idea.  When successfully blocking a grapple, at some level, the fighter should be able to then hurl the enemy trying to grapple him (if no more than two size categories bigger than him) as if by the Fling Enemy feat and totally be able to use it as a thrown weapon.  Think Judo.

He needs immunities because some things, like dazing, do not ALLOW an action to remove them, and some things, like Dominate Person, don't let him take the ACTION to remove that condition cause he's dominated, and some things, like Time Stop, fuck him over without any kind of saving throw.  FYI, if you have a caster inside your Proud As Punch range(natural reach) and some kind of way to do decent damage with it, it totally screws over time stop and dim. door.  That's an ability you use all the way to 20th.  That's probably something the goddamn fighter also needs to get.  Reach that doesn't stack with other forms of reach.  I'm sick of fighters taking aberration feats and inhuman deformities in order to have stupidly long disgusting tentacle arms.  But yeah.  At high levels you can seriously get like a dozen effects put on you without a save IN A SINGLE ROUND.  Some of them instagib you.  Others turn you into a vegetable.  Some strip all your levels away so you lose all your abilities.  Some turn you into a mindless toad.  Some make you fight your friends.  The GODDAMN FIGHTER needs goddamn immunities.  Without them he's just too squishy.

He needs enough immunities that a Fighter doesn't need to be necropolitan in order to not instadie against anything that throws save or sucks.  Cause Beowulf wasn't a necropolitan.  When clerics turned him, he didn't explode.

@skydragonknight;

The problem I have with all the people bleating 'weapon styles!  weapon styles!' is that none of the example abilities they give are above t5.  They are all things a mundane person could do, with the sole exception of veekie's 'jumping miles' idea and that was in a different frickin' POST than her stuff about weapon styles.  There's nothing WRONG with weapon styles as a concept, but people seem to have this fixed idea of what a weapon style is, and that idea is T5.

If you're a focused sword and board style fighter then you, as well as having immunities and various immediate/swift action stuff and combat surge etc, should be able to block ranged attacks aimed at you and your friends and bullrush dozens of people at once with your shield and daze people with your shield and knock down walls with your shield and I don't know, have 6 dancing shields or something, and hit really hard with your onehanded weapon when someone misses you cause you have a high AC cause of your shield, and get full cover all the time, and block rifts in time and space with your shield, and... I dunno, Other Stuff (tm).  I'm sure you could write lots of actually t3 stuff for a sword and board fighter and it'd be fairly teamworky and lovey dovey.  You could even give the person choices, probably binary ones, inside the tree, between abilities, if you wanted.  Like the team sword and boarder or the single warrior sword and boarder tree-choices.  Or the Unstoppable Avalanche 2 sword tree-choice and the Canny Two Sword Fighter tree-choice.

So yeah?  You could totally make it.  You'd just take out most of the offensive options of the Goddamned Fighter and replace it with a set of trees.

@ Saxony;

Yes, the Fighter in the PHB is a piece of crap.

But the WORD 'fighter' does not mean 'the fighter class in the PHB'.

The class i'm talking about is a lot more like the things the PHB lists that the fighter should be used to portray; 'questing knight, conquering overlord, the king's champion, the elite foot soldier, the hardened mercenary, and the bandit king - all are fighters.'

The PHB says that the Fighter is a Big Damn Fantasy Combatant.  It says that the Warrior is Soldier Dude/Soldier Mook.  In reality, the PHB Fighter AND the DMG Warrior are BOTH Soldier Mook.  There is very little to differentiate the two.  If I built a Warrior and a Fighter and you saw them both in action without an encyclopedic knowledge of what feats do what so you could count the amount of feats they use... you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference, and you wouldn't know if Honourable Samurai Sam was the Warrior or if Pirate Joe The Swashbuckling Scoundrel was the Warrior.

So yeah, the PHB Fighter is totally a Soldier Mook.  But uh.  I'm NOT building the PHB Fighter.  I'm building the WORD fighter.  And the FLUFF of the PHB Fighter.  That is I believe the design intention behind 'What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?'.  Because if the OP meant what would it take to make the mechanics of the PHB Fighter class, i.e. Soldier Mook, into a t3 class... it makes a hell of a lot less sense, and I don't really know how it could/would be done, since you'd have to change the mechanics to do that and that would stop it being 'the PHB fighter's mechanics' so uh.  Unless he means houserules?

No, i'm pretty sure he wasn't referring specifically to the mechanics in the PHB when he wrote 'Fighter'.

[Saxony]

@ Saxony;

Yes, the Fighter in the PHB is a piece of crap.

But the WORD 'fighter' does not mean 'the fighter class in the PHB'.

The class i'm talking about is a lot more like the things the PHB lists that the fighter should be used to portray; 'questing knight, conquering overlord, the king's champion, the elite foot soldier, the hardened mercenary, and the bandit king - all are fighters.'

The PHB says that the Fighter is a Big Damn Fantasy Combatant.  It says that the Warrior is Soldier Dude/Soldier Mook.  In reality, the PHB Fighter AND the DMG Warrior are BOTH Soldier Mook.  There is very little to differentiate the two.  If I built a Warrior and a Fighter and you saw them both in action without an encyclopedic knowledge of what feats do what so you could count the amount of feats they use... you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference, and you wouldn't know if Honourable Samurai Sam was the Warrior or if Pirate Joe The Swashbuckling Scoundrel was the Warrior.

So yeah, the PHB Fighter is totally a Soldier Mook.  But uh.  I'm NOT building the PHB Fighter.  I'm building the WORD fighter.  And the FLUFF of the PHB Fighter.

Okay. Seeing what you'll create interests me.

[oslecamo]

 At high levels you can seriously get like a dozen effects put on you without a save IN A SINGLE ROUND.  Some of them instagib you.  Others turn you into a vegetable.  Some strip all your levels away so you lose all your abilities.  Some turn you into a mindless toad.  Some make you fight your friends.  The GODDAMN FIGHTER needs goddamn immunities.  Without them he's just too squishy.

See, and this is where you seem to be missing the simple fact that people are aiming at goddamn tier 3, not t0. Because even a freaking beholder will be hard pressed to throw a dozen effects on you in a single round. Let alone whitout saves. Only something like a Sharunk could hope to achieve that whitout extreme cheesy optimization, and that's because the Sharunk is a freaking sorceror and wizard combined into one unholy abomination.

Really, even if your DM does throws you that kind of ecounters, then nothing in tier 3 (or even tier 2) has much of a chance. Only other equally cheesed casters have hope of suceeding on that situation.

People here don't want a fighter that can solo a cheesed out Sharunk. They want a fighter to hang out with warblades and dread necros and other t3 stuff, not casters oozing cheese out of all their body orifices.

He needs enough immunities that a Fighter doesn't need to be necropolitan in order to not instadie against anything that throws save or sucks.  Cause Beowulf wasn't a necropolitan.  When clerics turned him, he didn't explode.

That's because Beowulf didn't find any cleric high level enough to be able to turn him. Nobody could cast raise dead around at least

[juton]

 At high levels you can seriously get like a dozen effects put on you without a save IN A SINGLE ROUND.  Some of them instagib you.  Others turn you into a vegetable.  Some strip all your levels away so you lose all your abilities.  Some turn you into a mindless toad.  Some make you fight your friends.  The GODDAMN FIGHTER needs goddamn immunities.  Without them he's just too squishy.

See, and this is where you seem to be missing the simple fact that people are aiming at goddamn tier 3, not t0. Because even a freaking beholder will be hard pressed to throw a dozen effects on you in a single round. Let alone whitout saves. Only something like a Sharunk could hope to achieve that whitout extreme cheesy optimization, and that's because the Sharunk is a freaking sorceror and wizard combined into one unholy abomination.

You generally aren't fighting one adversary, you and your party are fighting multiple monsters, IME. In addition, a Fighter with all those immunities still isn't T0 or even T3 necessarily, team monster still has hit point damage to fall back on.

[oslecamo]

You generally aren't fighting one adversary, you and your party are fighting multiple monsters, IME.

And in your experience, all of those multiple monsters are able to inflict no-save deadly effects and are all focus firing the fighter?

In addition, a Fighter with all those immunities still isn't T0 or even T3 necessarily, team monster still has hit point damage to fall back on.

Please, we've already concluded that raw numbers aren't a problem at all. Even the basic fighter can dish out more than enough damage to one-shot pretty much anything, provided he isn't disabled and can reach the oponent. There was even an CO experiment where the official fighter soloed the Tarrasque. With each of the diferent fighting styles (since the Tarrasque doesn't have any pesky defensive SLAs or insta-gib effects).

So yes, if the fighter is lulzing at every status effect out there and bypassing every non-HP defense, then HP certainly won't save its oponents either.

[juton]

You generally aren't fighting one adversary, you and your party are fighting multiple monsters, IME.

And in your experience, all of those multiple monsters are able to inflict no-save deadly effects and are all focus firing the fighter?

Because a monster only ever affects one PC at a time.

No wait that doesn't happen. Area affects or multi-target effects are very common

In addition, a Fighter with all those immunities still isn't T0 or even T3 necessarily, team monster still has hit point damage to fall back on.

Please, we've already concluded that raw numbers aren't a problem at all. Even the basic fighter can dish out more than enough damage to one-shot pretty much anything, provided he isn't disabled and can reach the oponent. There was even an CO experiment where the official fighter soloed the Tarrasque. With each of the diferent fighting styles (since the Tarrasque doesn't have any pesky defensive SLAs or insta-gib effects).

So yes, if the fighter is lulzing at every status effect out there and bypassing every non-HP defense, then HP certainly won't save its oponents either.

The Official 3.5 Fighter(s) Tordek and/or Regdar soloed the Tarrasque? I'm calling bullshit on this unless you can provide a link. You can make a Fighter that does enough DPS to make a difference in combat, but not core only and it with that level of optimization you can make a better Barbarian/PsyWar/Warblade anyways.

EDIT: IF Regdar is just flying around shooting at the big T with his bow, that doesn't show that the Fighter is an acceptable combatant.

[awaken DM golem]

If you just say the SRD Generic Warrior is now the "Fighter"
you get around the skills problem, 
you get a little bigger base of feats oh sorry "abilities",
and you open the Bonus Feats, to non Fighter specific feats.

Then give it a class only (mandatory) ACF that ditches 1 prereq per feat.
Say around 8th level.
How bad could it get comparing this to 4th level spells+ ?!

[Rejakor]

The tarrasque is not a challenging encounter for players of any level at all ever.

Either it's overpowering because you don't have flight, or you kite it while lolling.

You can totally twink the living shit out of a fighter and have him do lots of HP damage and even have a trick like knockdown or bloodstorm pong.  And you can use node spellcasting to make a wizard have CL NI.

I have no idea what the fuck that has to do with the fighter class.

JaronK's commoner charger proves that you can put those same tricks on a commoner, at any level past like 5.  Frank's Grappling Wizard is an example of a wizard with fighter feats who do his job much better than a fighter.

Raw numbers aren't a problem at all?  Only if you twink the fighter.  Out of the box, people take power attack and weapon focus for the fighter.  And stuff like improved bullrush without shock trooper, or knockback.  Because that's what looks good to them.  Wizards who are using CL 7 Combust at level 1, or have save DC 24 on their colour sprays at level 2, is essentially the equivalent to the King of Pong, Haberdash, Jack B Quick, the Uberchargers and Locke Downe, and none of those builds come online before level 6 at the earliest.  Seriously.  The level of non-core and optimizing and minutiae they go through is equivalent to the Shadowcraft Cookie Monster, or the Omnicaster, or the Neo-Trancer.

And you end up with lots-o-damage and if you're lucky 2 rider effects like bullrush, trip, nausea, or daze.  If you're not lucky, you get one.  Better make it count and hope your opponent doesn't use something broken like rough terrain!  Or, y'know, an Empowered Ray of Stupidity.  Or Solid Fog.  Or anti-life shell.  Or is fast and flying.  Etc etc.

In low gear/no MiC campaigns, it's even worse.

So yes, raw numbers ARE a problem.  AND survivability is a problem.  And narrowness of focus is a problem.  And total lack of non-combat utility is a problem.  THESE ARE ALL PROBLEMS.

If people want to play the fighter class without taking a specific set of feats designed to wring some usefulness from a useless class chassis, then THESE PROBLEMS NEED TO BE FIXED.

'dozen effects'

Oh yeah, and by the way?  HYPERBOLE.  That is all.


It's not even really hyperbole because at like level 13, 14+ a big encounter really could drop that many effects on you in a round.  Or a particularly nasty trap.  And all those things that hit you with multiple effects, like prismatic spray/wall.



Beowulf was not undead.  He was a man.  That was in fact, largely the point of the entire saga.  He was an exceptional man who did things others couldn't.  If he was a monster himself, that kind of ruins 90% of the moral.

Also, it's unfair to say that casters can be human (veil of undeath, iron body) and fighters can't without dying horribly.  That's dumb.  That's bad design.  Do you really think it's a good idea?


EDIT:  @DM_golem

That's not a bad casual fix, but it still relies on specific feat combos to get damage etc.  It's better than the basic fighter, but not enough that I won't be dipping shit instead of taking it for any length of time.

The point is that a duskblade can do everything a fighter can, if a little slower, and can channel spells and dispel and stuff, too.  And a bard gish will take a fighter and rock the house with him.  And both of those are t3.  Also, a dread necro's pet buddy fire giant awakened fire giant skeleton is as good if not better than the fighter.  So the dread necro is a caster with a pocket fighter vs.. a fighter?  The t3 fighter needs to be better than one class feature of another t3 class.

[Saxony]

The Official 3.5 Fighter(s) Tordek and/or Regdar soloed the Tarrasque? I'm calling bullshit on this unless you can provide a link. You can make a Fighter that does enough DPS to make a difference in combat, but not core only and it with that level of optimization you can make a better Barbarian/PsyWar/Warblade anyways.

EDIT: IF Regdar is just flying around shooting at the big T with his bow, that doesn't show that the Fighter is an acceptable combatant.

One of your counter arguments involves the phrase "But that's not core".

Noted.

On another note, I think the original post's question has been satisfied in a civil and intelligent fashion. Good job everyone. I learned something.

[Rejakor]

I am not civil, and I never will be!


ALWAYS ANGRY

ALL THE TIME

[oslecamo]

Because a monster only ever affects one PC at a time.

No wait that doesn't happen. Area affects or multi-target effects are very common

Please provide any combination of a dozen monster with aura/multi-target no-save status effects by default whose combined CR isn't epic.

The Official 3.5 Fighter(s) Tordek and/or Regdar soloed the Tarrasque? I'm calling bullshit on this unless you can provide a link. You can make a Fighter that does enough DPS to make a difference in combat, but not core only and it with that level of optimization you can make a better Barbarian/PsyWar/Warblade anyways.

Ok, managed to find the  unarmed fighter version for that challenge. And here's the battle itself, pretty fun read.

And by all means, provide an unarmed barbarian/warblade with better numbers.

[Rejakor]

An unarmed one?  Sure.  Neither of those three classes have ANYTHING to do with unarmed combat except through feats, though.  So I don't really see exactly how the class makes a difference, except in bonus feats?

Note that that build is using fucking ECTOPLASMIC FIST SHARDS though.

It's a pretty nice little setup.  But there's some broken crap you can pull with item synergy that he's not using, and i'm sure I could work in the beast claws feat to double that damage, and then we'll make that attack is a diving or battle jumping attack, and leaping, and that eats up most of our feats, but hey.  With an item of +UMD we can reliably activate that swift action wraithstrike wand, and with shock trooper our base damage is going to be 12d8 (1d10 base monk (bones of li peng or mauling gauntlets or Superior Unarmed Strike), +4 size increases (Ectoplasmic Fist Shards), +1 INA from fanged ring, +1 totem avatar soulmeld, and hell, if we're talking about wands... why not CL 20 Greater Mighty Wallop, for another +5 size increases?  That grabs us 72d8 base damage... but let's just leave that be for the moment, eh?) + 40 (power attack, with the Hammer Fist feat, cause fuck TWF) + 18 (str - 18 base + 5 levels +5 tome + 6 item) + 8 (gauntlets of war and +5 weapon) + more if I can be bothered.  TIMES THREE, FOR CHARGING(leap attack and diving charge/battle jump).  6 attacks on the full attack without braid blade or anything else shenaniganey.  With beast claws and that claws soulmeld, that damage roughly doubles.  Attack bonus is somewhere in the realm of +46/+46/+46/+41/+36/+31(+5 diamond mind, tiger claw, iron thingo HAMMER FIST), against touch flat footed AC (thanks to blinking and pierce concealment - that build was wrong, by the way, ghost touch doesn't help your own blinking).  Using one maneuver - Pouncing Charge.  If we can fit a third soulmeld in there, we get a +8 untyped bonus to str which just helps matters.

As a barbarian, you get pounce for free, and you get greater rage, and lose a couple points to hit due to not having maneuvers.  Doesn't change much else.


Now that we've compared penis size, are we best friends?


Oh, and;

Please provide any combination of a dozen monster with aura/multi-target no-save status effects by default whose combined CR isn't epic.

Sure.  12 goblin binder 3's with improved binding binding Focalor for his aura of sadness.  Bam.

[Sinfire Titan]

Sure.  12 goblin binder 3's with improved binding binding Focalor for his aura of sadness.  Bam.

Same penalty from the same source with multiple points of origin. Don't think they stack.

[Rejakor]

Ugh, I hate how randomly VAGUE that rule is.

Alright, meh.  The point is, there are lots of things without saves.  Sometimes lots of them on the same monster (anything with natural casting can have dozens, no cost!).  That's not even the point I was making.  During his career, the Fighter is going to be attacked by all sorts of things with all sorts of abilities.  Some of those abilities don't have saves, or have saves that are wildly too high.  Making one of the fighter's schticks be 'has more defense than normal t3 character' is thematically appropriate and distinctive and nice and fine.  Dread necro's can make rockin' undead, but the fighter has more defenses than anyone other than full casters (body of iron, ray deflection, stormrage, reactive counterspell, initiate of mystra!), and he's okay with that.  etc etc.

EDIT:  Looking at my previous post.  I'm kind of interested if it's possible to down the tarrasque in one unarmed strike from a level 20 fighter, warblade, or barbarian.  Without stupidly broken cheese, obviously, but still.

[Lycanthromancer]

This is the kind of over-the-top stuff a fighter should be doing.

By level 6.

For the record, Tifa just got done with a half-hour long brawl with a number of INCREDIBLY powerful individuals, and got pummeled by someone so hardcore that she beat the balls out of her body. 

[oslecamo]

For the record, Tifa just got done with a half-hour long brawl with a number of INCREDIBLY powerful individuals, and got pummeled by someone so hardcore that she beat the balls out of her body. 

Army of ninjas is as low on the power scale as you can potentially get. Excuse me, but taking half an hour to take them down is simply pathetic.

This is, the real Tifa was beating down giant robots with giant lazors while walking over armies of soldiers with guns (and who could actually shoot straight). At level 1. The Tifa in that movie has trouble with the lowest kind of mook in the whole story of fantasy.  All show and no actual power. That's precisely what we're trying to avoid here I believe.

[JaronK]

'questing knight, conquering overlord, the king's champion, the elite foot soldier, the hardened mercenary, and the bandit king - all are fighters.'


'You can also use the Warrior class for soldiers (although perhaps not for commanders or career soldiers), guards, thugs, toughs, bullies, and even regular people who have learned to defend their homes with some ability'

The Fighter is NEVER supposed to be a guard.  At worst, he's a career or elite foot soldier.  So, when the King's Elite Phoenix Guards step in in full plate with magical force-pikes, THOSE ARE LOW LEVEL FIGHTERS.  When Jim the Guard clocks off shift, hangs up his battered chainmail, and heads down to the pub, THAT IS A LOW LEVEL WARRIOR.

Quoting from the same place you found that last bit:  "Fighters who are not actively adventuring may be soldiers, guards, bodyguards, champions, or criminal enforcers."  The Fighters are the guys who guard because they're the professionals... the elite guards, the guys who are really good at it.  The Warriors are the ones who are guards but not the professions... they're just guys who are good enough with an axe.  Though note that Fighter fluff says they may have just learned in the local militia or even be a self taught farmer, so the fluff really isn't very different from Warriors (heck, it even gives "Warrior" as a title for Fighters).  Note that the reason I focus on guard isn't because I want all Fighter players to stand in front of doors.   It's because it's one of the roles listed there that hints at abilities outside of "hit it with a stick."  Guards should have good detection abilities, so saying that a Fighter is good at being a profession guard means it's appropriate to give the Fighter relevant guarding abilities while still making him feel like a Fighter.  So, if we say "Fighters are good guards and bodyguards" then we can say "so let's give them Spot, Sense Motive, and Listen as class skills along with the skill points to use them" and still have them feel like Fighters.

Just using the Fighter fluff for what they should be good at, here's what I'd do for Fighters by level (and yes, all these roles are from the PHB fluff):

1)  Guard, Thug, Warrior, Mercenary, Soldier
5)  Hardened Mercenary, Bandit King, Elite Foot Soldier, Criminal Enforcer, Adventurer, Questing Knight, Bodyguard, Champion
10)  King's Champion, Conquering Overlord

Unfortunately, none of the PHB fluff titles really fit for characters about level 10 (except maybe Conquering Overlord).  But it's a good place to start with what they ought to be able to do, and we can just make the really high level stuff be based on giving him enough low level abilities to do all those things and then carry on from there.

But just from looking at those roles, we can see some places Fighters need boosts to fit them.  They need decent detection abilities (not amazing, just decent) to be guards.  To be elite soldiers or hardened mercenaries, they need to know about warfare (Profession and Knowledge History), and need to be able to identify enemies (what veteran of the drow wars doesen't know what a drow looks like?), plus should be generally good at the basics of combat (I like basic numerical bonuses to the standard attack types... I use a +1/3 class level to Trip, Grapple, Bull Rush, and so on bonus).  And "Bandit King" and "Conquering Overlord" indicate he should have some leadership abilities too.  All of these are thematic places to add powers that might actually be useful.

The PHB fluff also says "it is his job to man the front lines, protect the other party members, and bring the tough opponents down."  So, he should be good at those things.  I fully agree he should be tough to take down (he's on the front lines, after all), and this includes versus spells.  I tend to want to give him abilities like Evasion when using a shield (or just the ability to gain 9/10 cover with any shield), mettle in general, and con to all saves.  Rogues dodge Fireballs after all... Fighters should just block them and keep charging in.  Protecting other party members is something he currently can't do... either there should be feats that let him do this, or he should have class features that let him do this.  The mention protecting people and being a bodyguard... perhaps some ability to take hits for nearby party members?  Like if an attack roll targets an adjacent party member, the Fighter can swap places with him or stand in his space and force him to drop prone, thus having the hit now targeted at the Fighter?

Plus, some army leading abilities might be quite nice.  Even just giving him Diplomacy would let him inspire people to Fanatic status sometimes... perhaps an ability where he can add his Fighter level to Diplomacy checks made to raise Friendly folks to Fanatic?  A high level ability to make a speech and lend a small portion of his BAB to friendly troops that hear the speech?

JaronK

[Lycanthromancer]

For the record, Tifa just got done with a half-hour long brawl with a number of INCREDIBLY powerful individuals, and got pummeled by someone so hardcore that she beat the balls out of her body.  

Army of ninjas is as low on the power scale as you can potentially get. Excuse me, but taking half an hour to take them down is simply pathetic.

This is, the real Tifa was beating down giant robots with giant lazors while walking over armies of soldiers with guns (and who could actually shoot straight). At level 1. The Tifa in that movie has trouble with the lowest kind of mook in the whole story of fantasy.  All show and no actual power. That's precisely what we're trying to avoid here I believe.

Hey, she had like 15 hp left and they were 2 levels higher than her.

Not to mention the epic-level guy who ACTUALLY took her down.

Oh, and the half-hour fight was with REALLY powerful people. See the episodes prior to the one I linked.