Author Topic: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?  (Read 67756 times)

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DrPhro

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #100 on: April 28, 2011, 04:18:38 AM »
Forgive me if this has been said already there are a lot of posts here, but what if he got bonuses to his feats that would be similar to a skill synergy. So improved grapple would give him a +4 to grapple checks, but if he took improved trip both feats would get an additional +2. It could be a a normal bonus for each feat he took or it could be a progressive bonus like font of inspiration, so if (god forbid) he wanted to take improved disarm, each of those feats would get an additional +3.

Again sorry if someone has already suggested this.

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #101 on: April 28, 2011, 04:39:41 AM »
Forgive me if this has been said already there are a lot of posts here, but what if he got bonuses to his feats that would be similar to a skill synergy. So improved grapple would give him a +4 to grapple checks, but if he took improved trip both feats would get an additional +2. It could be a a normal bonus for each feat he took or it could be a progressive bonus like font of inspiration, so if (god forbid) he wanted to take improved disarm, each of those feats would get an additional +3.

Again sorry if someone has already suggested this.

Numbers are not the problem: Quality feats are the problem. A good feat is something like Travel Devotion or Martial Study. A bad feat... Well, we have enough examples of those in the PHB alone.


It's late for me, but tomorrow or Friday I'll dig up that post of mine.


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lans

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #102 on: April 28, 2011, 07:59:57 AM »
What if you went with my swappable feats, and 'bonus points to feats pool'? Letting the fighter get +15 to spot/listen for 3 feats that he can swap out, likely as a swift action at this point.  This would be likely in addition to changes in F2s skills.

Right now I'm thinking of a point and a feat per level, with caps just a little higher than essentia. 5 at 20 instead of 4 at 18. Figure a point will add 1 to the feats benefits.  Make the benefits only apply to Neo-Fighter feats, figure we'd just expand on the list.

Save some effort, and just give the Incarnate Full BAB.
Actually I somebody already did this, I  just forgot about it. Its on the oots boards.
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Nick

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #103 on: April 28, 2011, 10:08:17 AM »
Maybe we can just pretend there's no Fighter class and everything else that's essentially full BAB like the Fighter is a Fighter.

So Warblades, Crusaders, Duskblades, Paladins, Rangers are all Fighters. Because trying to fix it will almost always make it a lesser version of an existing full BAB class.
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lans

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #104 on: April 28, 2011, 12:23:43 PM »
@ the Fighter Mk1 as guards discussion- Theirs a reason why most a ton of guards have guard dogs in movies.


Maybe we can just pretend there's no Fighter class and everything else that's essentially full BAB like the Fighter is a Fighter.

So Warblades, Crusaders, Duskblades, Paladins, Rangers are all Fighters. Because trying to fix it will almost always make it a lesser version of an existing full BAB class.
We can, but that's not the point of this thread.
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Unbeliever

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #105 on: April 28, 2011, 01:41:29 PM »
Numbers are not the problem: Quality feats are the problem. A good feat is something like Travel Devotion or Martial Study. A bad feat... Well, we have enough examples of those in the PHB alone.
+1

These feats really can change the usual fighting in a major way w/out making it so different from the baseline combat mechanics.  To me, that's what distinguishes them from something like a Warblade (heavy emphasis on maneuvers) or a Duskblade or other gish (relies on spells/magic).  Travel Devotion, for example, can make you quite mobile while still making full attacks or an excellent (often a bit too good) debuffer w/ fearsome armor and Imperious Command.  More stuff along those lines (e.g., Earth Devotion, Trickery, maybe?) would be good for fighters.

Rejakor

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #106 on: April 28, 2011, 01:50:42 PM »
The Fighter isn't supposed to be a guard or a wrestler - he's supposed to be The Goddamned Fighter.

He's Conan, and Hercules, and Gilgamesh, and he's all of those goddamn things before he hits level 20, because comparable Wizard figures from mythology, Merlin, Ahriman, etc, with a few exceptions, rarely seem in DnD terms to get above 12th level.

Here's what the Fighter needs to do in order to fulfil that archetype.

1.  He needs to be immune to things.  Iron Heart Surge-like effect comes online at level 3, because that is when Wizards get wide-area save-or-sucks and individually targeted save-or-dies.  He needs to be immune to SO MANY THINGS.  He needs to be able to turn being blinded into hp damage, and rip through motherfucking illusions with his BARE HANDS.

2.  He needs to be able to monkeywrench things.  Spellcaster's whipping out components?  NONE OF THAT.  Beholder is trying to disintegrate the rogue?  NONE OF THAT.  Sea monster's eating his girlfriend?  NONE.  OF.  FUCKING.  THAT.

3.  He needs to have magic items.  Not buy them.  Have them.  Does he forge them?  Does he steal them from gods?  Do people just literally HAND him stuff?  I don't know!  But he needs to be handed items, or possibly pick them off some sort of list, that give him things like luck bonuses to saving throws, flight, etherealness, burrowing, insight bonus to AC, Fireball as a swift action str+con mod times per day, energy immunity, planar bound servants, and EVEN MORE FUCKING IMMUNITIES.

4.  He needs some Goddamn skillpoints.  A Goddamned Fighter is specifically and explicitly a master of physical movement, a student of war, a tactical genius, knowledgeable about monsters, and either knows enough about weapons and armour to clean them properly, or enough to forge ILHAROS, HAMMER OF THE GODS, using only random rocks and sheer CHUTZPAH.

5.  Hit points.  He not only needs more of them than ANYONE ELSE, he needs to both regenerate them and use them as a resource.  Blinded?  Nope, that's 10hp off.  Petrified?  Nah-ah, that's 20hp off.  Frozen?  Immune.  Dazed?  Hah, as if.  5hp.  Power attack for 500hp?  Weapon damage only, i'm afraid.  So that's 6hp.  So, what, you're going to attack the buffed wizard for some piddly damage and miss anyway?  Nope.  10hp to ignore miss chances, 20hp to ignore magical sources of AC, 30hp to add my level to damage twice... yep.  Your GODDAMN WIZARD IS DEAD.  'CAUSE I'M THE GODDAMNED FIGHTER, BITCH!

* (The barbarian has a bit less hp, but regens it REALLY FAST.  He's basically a Troll.)

6.  Leader of Men.  You can take your Goddamned leadership feat and SHOVE IT UP YOUR ASS.  A Goddamned Fighter not ONLY can gather a large army from seemingly NOTHING if he has some kind of goal that NEEDS an army, he gives that army all KINDS of STUPID bonuses.  A troop of twenty crossbowmen on a hillside can't even SCRATCH a dragon, but a troop of twenty crossbowmen with a GODDAMNED FIGHTER in charge can not only feather that goddamned dragon from it's scaly nose all the way to it's scaly arse, they look GODDAMNED STYLISH doing it!



So for the love of pete.  Please stop arguing about whether you should be giving the fighter a +2 or a +4 bonus on special attack actions.  Because GIVING A MINOR NUMERICAL BONUS TO THE FIGHTER CLASS DOES NOT AND WILL NOT FIX THE BASIC DESIGN FLAWS INHERENT IN IT'S DESIGN.

Oh, and also.

Quote from: JaronK
I think it's enough.

It's not FER GOD'S SAKE enough.  And it bloody WON'T BE til you arse-backwards BASTARDS pull your fingers out and actually UNDERSTAND SOME GODDAMN DESIGN PARADIGMS.

Unbeliever

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #107 on: April 28, 2011, 02:38:12 PM »
STUFF
So, your response to "What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?" is "crush the world and have abilities that no other class can match and fulfill every sword-wielding archetype all at once, BWAAHAAHAAHAA!" 

That strikes me as a tad ... overboard.  And, that's coming from a dyed in the wool REH Conan fan among other things.  I tend to use Warblade or PsyWar for my measuring stick in such things.

That being said, I really like the idea of using HP as a resource, especially as a way to counter other classes/archetypes abilities.  Ideally, it would force the opponents to play the conventional combat hit point game against the fighter, which is supposed to be his bailiwick. 

And, I think some of the things Rejakor cites do step on the Ranger's and Barbarian's toes a bit, but whatever.

Rejakor

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #108 on: April 28, 2011, 03:06:45 PM »
Let's take a look at what I suggested, with less detail and colour, shall we?

1.  Immunities.  Except to mental stuff, only the barbarian has any of this, amongst tradishunal swordswingin' classes.  And they don't get much.

2.  Interrupts.  They don't get none of this either.  Next.

3.  Free speshul magic items.  Movin' along.

4.  Both the ranger and the barbarian and even the monk get more skillpoints/class skills than the fighter, but... is 'having more skillpoints' REALLY stepping on someone else's toes?

5.  Using hitpoints to negate things and make his attacks better.  Uh..?

6.  Leading Tiny Men.  Well, unless we're counting the ranger's animal companion, nothing here either.


To be fair, if we gave the Fighter all of this stuff... he would literally be low tier 2, and that's only because it would be hard to kill him.  And the abilities i'm thinking of when I think of those categories are high and above what i'm pretty sure 99% of this thread are thinking of.  No, i'm not thinking of partial immunity to dazzling on tuesdays at level 6 and dazing at level 20 as a capstone.  I'm thinking of goddamn Iron Heart Surge at 3rd, and absolute immunity to any form of stunning, paralyzation, or dazing at level 6.  Because there are just SO MANY THINGS that can screw the fighter instantly and forever that a) he needs high saves and b) he needs to be immune to about half of them by level 8.  Then if he wants he can buy magic items and pick things from lists that make him MORE immune, so he's essentially immune to most status effects.  And guess what.  That's not even a good use of his time!  There's too much stupid shit like Love's Lament and Evard's Desiccating Buttworms that has some weird not-standard status effect or damage with absolutely no save whatsoever!

The wizard gets to fly and pull fighters out of his bum and explode whole rooms and make people blind and charm and dominate and create planes and teleport and cast ten spells a round and shape the battlefield and create fog you can't walk through and spikes and pits and automatic lazer turrets.  The Goddamned Fighter gets to run across a room laid out with the best this wizard has to offer and come out unscathed.  Things spit acid on him, shoot petrification beams at him, set him on fire, poison, stun, eviscerate, eat, explode, and turn him into ordure.  And he doesn't care.  He is a man-shaped block of obdurium that can, with a little effort, also reach out and touch someone in a very special way that makes them explode into chunks of meat.

And those two things are very separate!  Flying around changing the world and being a man-sized chunk of obdurium are two very different, and special, things!  Changing the world is still better, but at least being obdurium is basically less suck than being a commoner with a d10 hitdice.

And yeah, I see both of those things as being different from the fluff of the ranger, who should be focused on nature, surprise attacks or ranged sniping (and have ACTUAL ABILITIES RELATED TO THOSE THINGS), beast mastery, information-gathering, and winning at scouting, and the fluff of the barbarian, which is SMASH EVERYTHING, SO MUCH REGEN, LOLFEAR CAUSE I'M A FROTHING MADMAN, and I'M RAGING THAT EFFECT CAN WAIT TIL LATER.  Similar to the Fighter, but more of a deep beef flavour.  For example, Ghengis Khan wasn't a barbarian, he was a fighter.  Probably with levels in courtier and master strategist, but still.  That king of denmark who used to charge ahead of his army and reputably had a beard 'stained red by the blood of his foes'?  He was probably a barbarian.

veekie

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #109 on: April 28, 2011, 03:47:05 PM »
I think the goal is 'fix the fighter' not break it so its as broken as the casters, with less effort. This isn't looking for a T2 overpowered Fighter, its going for a T3 Fighter with a good chance of actually being accepted by DMs not well versed in CO and actually worth playing past a dip.
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juton

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #111 on: April 28, 2011, 04:03:49 PM »
I think the goal is 'fix the fighter' not break it so its as broken as the casters, with less effort. This isn't looking for a T2 overpowered Fighter, its going for a T3 Fighter with a good chance of actually being accepted by DMs not well versed in CO and actually worth playing past a dip.

This is the problem with most Monk fixes. They aim for Tier 3 out of the gate and fall short. If you are going to make a 'mundane' class, make them with a lot of powerful, cool and flavourful abilities. Once you have everything written down then see what needs to be scaled back. I don't think Rejakor's original suggestion is really overpowered, in fact it may still be underpowered compared to what some classes can get up to, but you've got to start with the awesome and then scale back to what is reasonable, doing it the other way almost always ends in mediocrity.

veekie

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #112 on: April 28, 2011, 04:28:37 PM »
You do need structure as to how to make a character work though. Most of the solid(and not gee whiz strong like full casters) classes have a central mechanical concept they work around, integrated with the fluff and secondary abilities that make them more unique, mixed with a number of statistical improvements.
Fighters as they are have none of those, so, beyond building a better chassis(which is what most of all that talk is about), they need something to make them more than a stack of numbers. Perhaps they can excel at fighting styles, above and beyond what the Ranger does. Perhaps they have special tactics they can deploy.
All the rest does is bigger numbers, making it a more powerful class, but not a better class. And the more numbers in place of actual abilities inside, the less likely it is to find acceptance outside of CO. That said, the more elaborate the abilities are, they more they detract from the class's conceit of being easy to play once built. Simplicity and steady state powers would keep it's Fighter feel instead of "why not Warblade".
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
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Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

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oslecamo

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #113 on: April 28, 2011, 04:43:27 PM »
Simplicity and steady state powers would keep it's Fighter feel instead of "why not Warblade".

Then we're kinda screwed because Tier 3 =/= simplicity or steady.

Psywarrior. Dread Necro. ToB classes. Beguiller. Factotum. Bard. What do they all base their strenght on?

The fact that they can pick and mix special abilities from a quite large list of them. Lists that fill dozens of pages.

There's not a single tier 3 class that doesn't rely on having a large list of abilities to choose from. Point.

And incidently that's what makes them tier 3. Not all maneuvers/powers/spells are equally powerfull. Some kinda suck really. But you don't need to pick them. You can totally ditch them and pick the cool stuff be it metamorphosis, haste, IHS, WRT and shivering touch and whatnot. Its the law of probability. Write enough abilities in one place, and eventually some will be worthwhile (or plain broken).

And then tier 2 are tier 2 because they can pick from even larger lists. And tier 1 are tier 1 because they can pick every damn thing on the lists at once!

So no, you cannot make a steady and simple tier 3 fighter at all. You'll need to write dozens of pages worth of abilities to pick from, and then pray you wrote enough of them so that when the optimizer dudes fall on them they have enough worthy toys to play with.

Rejakor: You may be interested on this then. It basically allows the fighter to pick and use "strategies", wich range from hiting stuff hard, recruiting powerfull minions, making nearby people scared, following teleports and a bunch of other stuff. Never completed tough.



Bester

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #114 on: April 28, 2011, 04:44:29 PM »
So if a fighter gains a class feature that says he can use his swift action as a move action for the purpose of moving and full attacking only, at what level would you give that to him?  I'm thinking level 6.  Kind of like travel devotion ++.

Of course, it's still not enough to stick with fighter.  Next on the agenda should be some measure of self buff, or forced debuff(like the sacrificing HPs to turn off Mage armor).  I should mention again, that most of my experience is with E6, so I make classes that are only 6 levels long.  I am unfamiliar with what fucks you over at higher levels.  I can tell you that devotion feats are super feats in E6 and eclipse all class features except casting.

veekie

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #115 on: April 28, 2011, 04:55:00 PM »
Well, of course theres a minimum of simplicity, but the bard is a good basis. Once the character is created, in play, it's simple in itself, you start up a music and cast one of your spells known. Contrast this with an array of 10 hot swappable feats, or with the warblade...if maneuvers were as wide spanning as spells(most of them are "I hit this with +XdX" or "I bypass this defense and hit this").

EDIT: Basically, pick from a series of abilities at character creation and have these abilities stay relevant and generally always on.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 04:59:05 PM by veekie »
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Bozwevial

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #116 on: April 28, 2011, 05:09:18 PM »
Well, of course theres a minimum of simplicity, but the bard is a good basis. Once the character is created, in play, it's simple in itself, you start up a music and cast one of your spells known. Contrast this with an array of 10 hot swappable feats, or with the warblade...if maneuvers were as wide spanning as spells(most of them are "I hit this with +XdX" or "I bypass this defense and hit this").

EDIT: Basically, pick from a series of abilities at character creation and have these abilities stay relevant and generally always on.
So, not quite as decision-paralysis-inducing as the wizard's spell selection but much more versatile and flexible than fighters and probably warblades.

oslecamo

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #117 on: April 28, 2011, 05:14:39 PM »
...if maneuvers were as wide spanning as spells(most of them are "I hit this with +XdX" or "I bypass this defense and hit this").
See, this is precisely what I was talking about. Most maneuvers are indeed like that, BUT it's precisely the few maneuvers that do other stuff that makes ToB classes tier 3!

Iron heart Surge, WRT, ex teleport, sudden leap, Concentration to saves, ect. They're the ones that make the diference.

EDIT: Basically, pick from a series of abilities at character creation and have these abilities stay relevant and generally always on.
I can agree with that. But the problem is having the patience to write down said series of abilities. And then geting other people to read trough them for said character creation.

Takanaki

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #118 on: April 28, 2011, 05:21:47 PM »
I think Rejakor makes a good suggestion to use HP as a resource for fighters. Overall his suggestion seems to be the best of them so far, with others equating just to replace feats with even more feats.

Would like to see more work on the suggestions he has made personally.

veekie

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #119 on: April 28, 2011, 05:22:46 PM »
Yep, the main thing is at character creation(barring something as labyrinth as maneuver prereqs that are not easy to see), you can have complexity, trees of talents/fighting styles/tactics, etc, maybe even trees that split and then merge back later(e.g. Slashing Weapon Style + Mobility Style => Dervish Style(move while slashing) -> Hurricane Style(AoE circular slashy)/ North Wind Style(Ubercharging 'charge through')). Thats no issue, most people spend upwards of an hour making mid-high level characters anyway, a bit of complexity lasts for many sessions of play.

When you need to make complex decisions AT the table, you have a problem. A well designed encounter is already multifaceted and generally pretty complex, if you need to decide what prereqs you're gonna change as you dock out half dozen feats and load a new set in, people are going to balk.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."