Author Topic: If Mystic Theurge only needed 1/2 or 2/1 casting, how optimal would it be?  (Read 3767 times)

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Endarire

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Let's assume you plan to go Mystic Theurge under these conditions:

-You can enter with level 2 divine spellcasting & level 1 arcane spellcasting OR level 1 divine spellcasting & level 2 arcane casting.
-No fast casting classes, like Ur-Priest or Beholder Mage.
-All other factors are the same.  You're still probably MAD.

I still may be hard-pressed to use MT with this.  I like my highest level abilities that much.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

AleksanderTheGreat

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... good for you?
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Optimizing is the antithesis of roleplaying because it takes focus away from the important parts of the game.
I'm inclined to disagree. People work hard on there characters, there personality, back ground, appearance, so forth. No one wants there character that they have invested time, energy, thought, and probably emotion in to be killed because they didn't take strong enough feats or skills or spells or what have you.

Phoenix00

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10 levels or 17 levels of mystic theurge?  It doesn't matter prior to level 13 but for level 15 or higher it kinda does.

Endarire

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What are the differences between capping MT at 10 and 16?
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Widow

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A pretty standard build is Druid 3/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 4/Arcane Heirophant 10/ Mystic Theurge 2.

Level 19 Druid Casting
Level 17 Wizard Casting (Dual 9's)
Level 13 Wildshape
Level 13 Animal Companion
No arcane spell failure in light and medium armor not made of metal.
BAB of 12

I think the additional mystic theurge level comments is more about continued dual progression.  Once you stop dual progressing the one caster class just stops dead.  Arcane Heirophant fixes this by adding another dual progression class.  Epic progression should continue through arcane heirophant because the official epic progression for mystic theurge only progresses on class.

You can also go cleric/dreadnecro/mystic theurge/True Necromancer.  Not as powerful, but very thematic.

skydragonknight

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Archivist Cleric 1/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10 >> Sorcerer 14
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Dictum Mortuum

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Phrenic Necropolitan Human (Spellstiched) Sorcerer 2/Favored Soul 1/Mystic Theurge 10

THIS
IS
SPARTA CHARISMA
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Nunkuruji

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For the case of the Arcane Heirophant, it makes it a little sweeter. Unlike the straight MT, it actually has class features, and you end up with a buffed to high hell off of two lists intelligent bodyguard pet via share spells.

For a straight MT, you enjoy being buffed off of two lists. However, your action potency is most likely less than that of someone with high level class abilities.

Ikeren

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Wizard 2/Archivist 1/MT 10/XXX (Incantatrix 7) = Wizard 19+Archivist 11, which may barely be acceptable on a good day.
Wizard 2/Archivist 1/MT 17 = Wizard 19+Archivist 18, which probably is worth it. You could be blowing spell slots on persists, quickens all over the place and still have lots of 7th-9th slots left.

Endarire

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The point is to have at least level 2 spells in one class and level 1 spells in another.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Lycanthromancer

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The point is to have at least level 2 spells in one class and level 1 spells in another.
So, Precocious Apprentice, eh?
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Widow

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Phrenic Necropolitan Human (Spellstiched) Sorcerer 2/Favored Soul 1/Mystic Theurge 10

THIS
IS
SPARTA CHARISMA

Replace Phrenic Necropolitan human with Sharn and you got my attention.

The point is to have at least level 2 spells in one class and level 1 spells in another.
So, Precocious Apprentice, eh?

I like versatile spell caster better if you are going Dreadnecro/Cleric.

Ikeren

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Quote
The point is to have at least level 2 spells in one class and level 1 spells in another.


Shit sorry, I thought you were talking about character levels, not spell levels.
If it's spell levels, cheese past it, otherwise I'd say no, not worth it to go (Wiz3/Arch 1 or Arch 3/Wiz1).

Akalsaris

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I think it still wouldn't be the best choice for most characters, but it would certainly be more viable than the current version, and maybe that's what should be aimed for.  For example, I'd take a 1 CL hit to enter mystic theurge if I was in a small group and thought it would cover an important role we were missing.

CrimsonDeath

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Phrenic Necropolitan Human (Spellstiched) Sorcerer 2/Favored Soul 1/Mystic Theurge 10

THIS
IS
SPARTA CHARISMA

Replace Phrenic Necropolitan human with Sharn and you got my attention.
Sharn?  I thought that was a city.

Tshern

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It is in Eberron. In Faerun it is a monster. The newest, I think, version is in Anauroch - The Empire of Shade.

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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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You love them houserules to make casters stronger huh?

MT theurge already is optimal. It's a loss of 1 CL for +11 to another list. Go arcane hierophant for duals with little work and no faster casters.

The "problem" is that there are so many even stronger PrCs like incantrix, so being nearly wiz20//druid20 starts to look weak.
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
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skydragonknight

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The "problem" is that there are so many even stronger PrCs like incantrix, so being nearly wiz20//druid20 starts to look weak.

Though using unbalanced PrCs as a baseline for what is power-appropriate doesn't seem right either. Houseruling MT up to the level of Planar Shepherd, Shadowcraft Mage, Incantrix or the like is basically saying - pun intended - "Please Break My Campaign."
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

CrimsonDeath

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I think a house rule like this would put the MT pretty close in power to the Ultimate Magus or some of the invocation-user dual-progression classes-- good enough to consider for an optimized build but not so good that it becomes a reflexive response to an unconstrained optimization request.  (It grants better spellcasting progression then UM but lacks class features, which probably comes close to balancing out.)

However, with rapid-progression classes like Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord, I have to wonder if a change like this is really necessary.