Flyby Attack+Dive+Landshark Boots = ??

[Leviathan]

So tell me, does this mix the way I think it mixes?

According to the MM/SRD & MoI

Dive Attack: "A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage"

Flyby Attack: states that "When flying, the creature can take a move action (including a dive) and another standard action at any point during the move"

Landshark boots: If, as part of a move, you achieve a Jump check result good enough to make a 5-foot high jump while withing reach of an opponent, you can attack that opponent with all four claws as a standard action"

Am I correct in reading then that I can fly above something, make a dive attack as part of a flyby and (assuming my GM allows the logical option of "If you're flying you don't have to make the jump check") attack with all four Landshark Boots claws for double damage?
If so that means my Gestalt Incarnate (3)/Totemist(2) with wings can (assuming all four hit) deal 8d6+80 damage at lvl 3 o.O

[kremti]

Don't think it quite works:

Dive Attack: "A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage"

"Just like a charge" makes Dive attack necessarily a Full Round Action.  The other two (Fly by and Boots) Specify that you get one Standard Action Attack.

-K

[Leviathan]

Don't think it quite works:
"Just like a charge" makes Dive attack necessarily a Full Round Action.  The other two (Fly by and Boots) Specify that you get one Standard Action Attack.

-K

That's true, but Flyby attack explicitly states that you can make a Dive and a standard action. Now assuming despite the ambiguous wording that that doesn't mean "Make a dive attack, and after that attack have another standard action" this seems to indicate that you could dive with Landshark boots.

Also, does anyone know if it's been stated anywhere if you can use Landshark boots via a standard full attack/pounce method, not just the standard action method mentioned in the soulmeld?

[CrimsonDeath]

I'm not sure, but there might be a distinction between a dive and a dive attack.  I'm not sure where to look for clarification, though.

[Leviathan]

I'm not sure, but there might be a distinction between a dive and a dive attack.  I'm not sure where to look for clarification, though.

I think the line in there is intended to allow you to use Flyby attack with a Dive attack.

I'm also thinking in this case that it's easiest to just call Landshark Boots a special maneuver and not allow Dive Attack to work with it

[TheAbyssDragon]

A 'dive' and a 'dive attack' are not synonymous. Fly-by attack allows you to 'dive' as a movement component.

[Leviathan]

A 'dive' and a 'dive attack' are not synonymous. Fly-by attack allows you to 'dive' as a movement component.

Are you able to provide a source on that one? I don't really see a reason why they'd write "When flying, the creature can take a move action (including flying downwards) and another standard action at any point during the move", kind of supremely redundant wording.

[CrimsonDeath]

On the other hand, I'm not really sure why they would refer to a dive attack as a move action when it's actually a charge action.  Also, the description of a feat is a strange place to clarify the mechanics associated with a movement mode-- strange enough that I might be inclined to call it a secondary source and therefor overridden by the primary source (in this case the glossary entry for Movement Modes).

[Leviathan]

On the other hand, I'm not really sure why they would refer to a dive attack as a move action when it's actually a charge action.  Also, the description of a feat is a strange place to clarify the mechanics associated with a movement mode-- strange enough that I might be inclined to call it a secondary source and therefor overridden by the primary source (in this case the glossary entry for Movement Modes).

Point. Personally I think it's intended as a very clumsy way of saying "You can make a flyby dive attack, assuming you meet the usual requirements of a Dive attack", I can't really see any huge abuses with that. No more than dive attack+pounce usually is anyway.

[DrPhro]

Well with landshark boots you have to be within reach of your opponent when you make the jump check. I guess if you jumped 20' in the air while in front of him you'd fulfill the 30' total movement and 10' descention requirements, but then one might argue that you're jumping and not flying. If you're using landshark boots' special effect it specifically says that you can't make anymore attacks.

I also just realized that this whole thing is a moot point, because if you've got normal pounce then you can just attack with all four claws after the charge granted by dive attack. Since this is a gestalt build anyways then you just fill that last lvl with lion totem barb 1.

[CrimsonDeath]

If one argues that you are jumping and not flying, just point out that you can start (or stop) flying as a free action.  So you jump (fulfilling the requirement of Landshark Boots) then start flying (fulfilling the requirement of Flyby Attack).

[DrPhro]

So I guess in either case the requirement is met. Now can you meet the requirements for battle jump as well?

[CrimsonDeath]

Pretty sure Battle Jump is incompatible with a dive attack, since Battle Jump requires that you fall while a dive attack requires that you fly-- anyone falling is not flying, and anyone flying is not falling.

[DrPhro]

Pretty sure Battle Jump is incompatible with a dive attack, since Battle Jump requires that you fall while a dive attack requires that you fly-- anyone falling is not flying, and anyone flying is not falling.

Well I was hoping that you could again meet the falling prerequisite of battle jump, but looking back on the feat it requires you to hurl yourself onto the foe (specifically you can't be affected by fly or levitate or similar effect (I'll leave that to TO)). But you could argue that you don't need to be flying for a dive attack, you just need to be able to fly. So maybe you jump 5' up fly the next 15' and then fall the last 10' onto your opponent. Does it work?

[Leviathan]

I've been having a chat with my GM about whether she'll allow me to use Landshark boots while flying, and ditching the Jump check requirement.
I'm really hoping that the answer is Yes, since after checking skills last night I've realised that in spite of his ~+16 modifier, since my Totemist is a Kobold he can't ever make the 5ft jump without taking a feat or class that gives Leap of the Clouds

[DrPhro]

Again the soulmeld just gives you an artificial pounce. If you get a real pounce there's no need to take the special attack option, the claws granted are what's important. Where's leap of the clouds again? I'm not sure but I think that mighty leaping (SS) gives more benefits.

EDIT: well it may or may not be better, but the entry requirements for mighty leaping are pretty steep. dodge, mobility, str 21, jump 9 ranks or a racial bonus to jump checks.

[Leviathan]

Again the soulmeld just gives you an artificial pounce. If you get a real pounce there's no need to take the special attack option, the claws granted are what's important. Where's leap of the clouds again? I'm not sure but I think that mighty leaping (SS) gives more benefits.

Leap of the Clouds is the Monk ability that means your jump is no longer limited by your height/size.

Stupid "Small creatures are limited to a 4ft high jump" rule. Grumble.

True the soulmeld gives you an artificial pounce, but unlike real pounce you make all four attacks at your highest bonus (plus, I get my Wings at lvl 3, Pounce at lvl 4 and Multiattack at lvl 5, so being able to use Landshark boots in the meantime would be rather nice )

[CrimsonDeath]

Again the soulmeld just gives you an artificial pounce. If you get a real pounce there's no need to take the special attack option, the claws granted are what's important. Where's leap of the clouds again? I'm not sure but I think that mighty leaping (SS) gives more benefits.

Leap of the Clouds is the Monk ability that means your jump is no longer limited by your height/size.

Stupid "Small creatures are limited to a 4ft high jump" rule. Grumble.

True the soulmeld gives you an artificial pounce, but unlike real pounce you make all four attacks at your highest bonus (plus, I get my Wings at lvl 3, Pounce at lvl 4 and Multiattack at lvl 5, so being able to use Landshark boots in the meantime would be rather nice )

Oh, you're making a 3.0 character?  It's nice of your DM to back-convert the Incarnum material for you.  I was glad when they removed that rule from the Jump skill in the 3.5 conversion.

[DrPhro]

I'm thinking of leap of the heavens, which is a feat from phbii and doesn't remove the limit. There's also an epic feat that removes it but being epic it takes 23 ranks in jump.

Well the claws it gives you would all be considered primary weapons so you wouldn't take the penalty on them. Additionally if you have another weapon you could attack with that first, but doing so would give you a -5 on all your claws, so it probably isn't worth it (at least until you get multiattack).

So what build are looking at beyond lvl 3?

[Leviathan]

Oh, you're making a 3.0 character?  It's nice of your DM to back-convert the Incarnum material for you.  I was glad when they removed that rule from the Jump skill in the 3.5 conversion.

*Headthump*
In spite of your post absolutely oozing sarcasm to an unnecessary degree, thanks. I misread "Verticle reach" for "Verticle jump height" (though "Verticle Reach" of 4ft is still dodgy for Kobolds, since Races of the Dragon specifies that they can stand 4ft high if they fully extend their legs).

Well the claws it gives you would all be considered primary weapons so you wouldn't take the penalty on them. Additionally if you have another weapon you could attack with that first, but doing so would give you a -5 on all your claws, so it probably isn't worth it (at least until you get multiattack).

So what build are looking at beyond lvl 3?

The build is:
1: Totemist/Lolth Touched. Feats: Dragonwrought Kobold. Kobold Endurance. Improved Speed. Flaws: Short Attention Span, Beastly
2: Incarnate/Totemist
Buy off Lolth Touched, add Incarnate
3: Incarnate/Dragon Winged. Feat: Flyby Attack
4: Incarnate/Barbarian (Alternate Class Features: Focused Hunter & Lion Spirit Totem. Lose Rage & Fast Movement, gain Ranger Combat Style (Archery) (lvl 2), Favored Enemy and Pounce). Use Kobold Ranger Substitution variant for Favored Enemy (+3 vs Gnomes)
5: Incarnate/Barbarian (Alternate Class Feature: Fangshield Ranger. Replace Combat Style with Multiattack)
Buy off Dragon Winged, add Swordsage
6: Incarnate/Swordsage. Feat: Awaken Breath Weapon
7: Incarnate/Stormtalon
8: Incarnate/Stormtalon Bonus Feat: Hover
9: Incarnate/Stormtalon Feat: Dual Chakra (Totem)
10: Incarnate/Stormtalon Bonus Feat: Adroit Flyby Attack

Notes:
"Dragon Winged" is a custom template that grants half-dragon Wings & Breath Weapon but nothing else, +1LA
Lvl 8 & 10 bonus flying feats are subject to change
Stormtalon has been 'altered' to allow entry by anything with a natural flight speed. I'll just be sharpening my foot claws

So once I hit lvl 7 and get my first level in Stormtalon I'll be making dive attacks with:
Kobold Bite
Girallon Arms Soulmeld
Dragon Tail Soulmeld
Stormtalon foot claws
So eight natural attacks, six of them dealing double-damage on a Dive attack. There's a reason my Kobold's name means Small Dragon