Author Topic: Need Help Improving an Unarmed Swordsage / Shadow Sun Ninja Build  (Read 6747 times)

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Sachiru

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Quote
It's 6th level, 32pb, all wotc books allowed
Hit die autoroll full.

DM rules.

Must be unarmed swordsage and Shadow sun Ninja.

Help, please?

CrimsonDeath

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Re: Need Help Improving an Unarmed Swordsage / Shadow Sun Ninja Build
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2011, 09:00:41 AM »
Race: Whisper Gnome (Races of Stone)
Swordsage 5/Shadowsun Ninja 1
Feats: Shadow Blade, Adaptive Style, Weapon Finesse
Abilities (after racial modifiers):
Str 12
Dex 16
Con 16
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 10

godzilla5939

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Re: Need Help Improving an Unarmed Swordsage / Shadow Sun Ninja Build
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2011, 09:21:28 AM »
I like hobgoblins, +2 to Dex and Con +4 to hide, and no negatives except for one level of LA

Sachiru

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Re: Need Help Improving an Unarmed Swordsage / Shadow Sun Ninja Build
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2011, 10:34:11 AM »
How about Vow of Poverty?

Also, build changed to Warlock 1 (with Blend into Shadows feat and some way to get Frightful Presence in)Dark Creature template from Tome of Magic, Swordsage 5 and Shadow Sun Ninja 1. I'd need help with feat selection and other stuff.

The reason for the Warlock dip is the awesomesauce known as Blend Into Shadows (Ninja HiPS), along with Shadow Sun Ninja's level 4 ability of Light Within Darkness. To quote:

Quote
If you make a melee attack against an opponent on the round after a successful Hide check, all opponents within 60 feet of you that failed to detect you must Save or be Blinded for one round. This will utterly screw most enemies, and as a nifty side benefit, Blinded enemies automatically fail any Spot checks. So you'll automatically be able to Hide against them again, and they'll have to make another Save next round or be Blinded for another round. Rinse, lather, repeat.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 12:58:10 PM by Sachiru »

CrimsonDeath

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Re: Need Help Improving an Unarmed Swordsage / Shadow Sun Ninja Build
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2011, 04:59:01 PM »
I'd considered suggesting the Dark template (especially if you can use LA buyoff), but there was a lot of overlap (racial bonus to Hide and Move Silently overlaps Whisper Gnome-- assuming template skill bonuses are racial-- and cold resist overlaps SSN's Flame of the Shadow Sun).

I also considered suggesting the Skulk race (Races of Destiny).

VoP is decent for unarmed builds, but the general consensus is that you get more out of wealth.  A Swordsage could probably do better than a Monk, but most of the time you'll probably want items.  (Especially if your DM reads the Swordsage's AC bonus as requiring light armor, rather than light or no armor.)

veekie

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Re: Need Help Improving an Unarmed Swordsage / Shadow Sun Ninja Build
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2011, 07:29:37 PM »
VoP is decent for unarmedunequipped builds, but the general consensus is that you get more out of wealth.  A Swordsage could probably do better than a Monk, but most of the time you'll probably want items.  (Especially if your DM reads the Swordsage's AC bonus as requiring light armor, rather than light or no armor.)
Big difference, unarmed would want it all the more because of all the size increases and stuff you need to buy, only a druid would probably enjoy VoP.
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Re: Need Help Improving an Unarmed Swordsage / Shadow Sun Ninja Build
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2011, 07:39:27 PM »
I like hobgoblins, +2 to Dex and Con +4 to hide, and no negatives except for one level of LA
The Hobgoblin's down-side is it has no abilities worth a +1 LA (+2 to 2 stats isn't enough to make up for a lost level).
How about Vow of Poverty?

Also, build changed to Warlock 1 (with Blend into Shadows feat and some way to get Frightful Presence in)Dark Creature template from Tome of Magic, Swordsage 5 and Shadow Sun Ninja 1. I'd need help with feat selection and other stuff.

The reason for the Warlock dip is the awesomesauce known as Blend Into Shadows (Ninja HiPS), along with Shadow Sun Ninja's level 4 ability of Light Within Darkness. To quote:

Quote
If you make a melee attack against an opponent on the round after a successful Hide check, all opponents within 60 feet of you that failed to detect you must Save or be Blinded for one round. This will utterly screw most enemies, and as a nifty side benefit, Blinded enemies automatically fail any Spot checks. So you'll automatically be able to Hide against them again, and they'll have to make another Save next round or be Blinded for another round. Rinse, lather, repeat.



You can get that same benefit out of magic items and the Shadowsun Ninja itself:
Quote
Round 1) Swift action, activate the Child of Shadow and Light and start with the Darkness sphere. Also, use the Darkness Within Light feature (and maybe a Scroll of True Strike or something that negates the 50% miss chance that round). Make a Hide check within the Darkness sphere. Hit the enemy once. Enemy is effectively blinded unless they have Blindsight (specifically). Darkvision doesn't see through this, though Baatezu probably can (won't matter next round). Effectively, this is imposing a 50% miss-chance on any enemy within the sphere, and your allies can just use a Blindfold of True Darkness or something to become immune (making sure the Wizard disables the enemy's magic items is a good idea for this trick, though it may not be needed unless the DM remembers to hand-pick their equipment).

Round 2) Invert Child of Shadow and Light, maintain Darkness within Light. Trigger Light Within Darkness. Every enemy within 60ft needs to save or be blinded for 1 round.

Round 3) Repeat from Round 1.



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Jopustopin

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Re: Need Help Improving an Unarmed Swordsage / Shadow Sun Ninja Build
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2011, 03:55:14 AM »
Wild Elf Swordsage 5/Shadow Sun Ninja 1

Str: 18 (+1 @ lv 4)
Dex: 18
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 14
Cha: 8

1) Shadow Blade
3) Adaptive Style
6) Superior Unarmed Strike

Your punch (kick, headbutt, or elbow) should look like 1d10+8 when you are not trying at all to increase the damage. 

Praef

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Re: Need Help Improving an Unarmed Swordsage / Shadow Sun Ninja Build
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2011, 02:19:01 PM »
Strongheart halfling Monk 2/unarmed swordsage3/ssnx

use the halfling sub level for monks from the online supplement of champions of valor to pickup improved trip and underfoot combat, make yourself tiny and use setting sun maneuvers and stances.  You're tiny, with a massive dex, and setting sun throws are based on dex, and can run into peoples squares.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Need Help Improving an Unarmed Swordsage / Shadow Sun Ninja Build
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2011, 03:09:14 PM »
Plan on using Setting sun?

Human Passive Way Monk 2 / Unarmed Swordsage 3 / Shadow Sun Ninja 1
Passive Way Monk 2 grants Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Expertise, & Improved Trip (and of course evasion).
Human lets you pick up Jotunbrud (treated as large for size modifiers when useful).
There is a weapon enchantment called Sweeping that grants +2 bonus to Strength checks while tripping.
Then of course Setting sun's throw based strikes all give a +4 bonus too.
I know there is other stuff but you would have to google it.

Edit: Living Chain (MiC 53) grants an additional +2 to Strength checks while tripping. Rip it's ability.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 03:17:00 PM by SorO_Lost »
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Sachiru

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Re: Need Help Improving an Unarmed Swordsage / Shadow Sun Ninja Build
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2011, 01:22:27 PM »
I get improved unarmed strike for free due to DM being merciful. Hmm.

Wavering between strongheart halfling  - pure swordsage/ssn and human monk / swordsage / ssn. On one thing, I get highlevel maneuvers, on the other, increased chance of successful trip for maneuvers.

Or is there something else that could combine the two?

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Re: Need Help Improving an Unarmed Swordsage / Shadow Sun Ninja Build
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2011, 08:28:47 PM »
Grab some sneak attack and the Craven feat to add your Character Level to your unarmed sneak attacks? It multiplies on a crit, y'know.
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Sachiru

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Re: Need Help Improving an Unarmed Swordsage / Shadow Sun Ninja Build
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2011, 01:27:10 AM »
Grab some sneak attack and the Craven feat to add your Character Level to your unarmed sneak attacks? It multiplies on a crit, y'know.

Wait, what?

I'm not taking Assassin's Stance.

Praef

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Re: Need Help Improving an Unarmed Swordsage / Shadow Sun Ninja Build
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2011, 01:30:08 AM »
I get improved unarmed strike for free due to DM being merciful. Hmm.

Wavering between strongheart halfling  - pure swordsage/ssn and human monk / swordsage / ssn. On one thing, I get highlevel maneuvers, on the other, increased chance of successful trip for maneuvers.

Or is there something else that could combine the two?

The only 3 reasons I would dip monk and play as a halfling are that a) the halfling sublevel that gives you underfoot combat b) the ability to use devastating strike instead of flurry of blows for double unarmed strike damage and c) the alternate class feature that gives you the ability to go invisible 1 out of 4 rounds.

I played this character once.  It has yet been the most fun I've ever had playing dnd.  it really doesn't do too much damage, but it is a master of battlefield control.

DrPhro

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Re: Need Help Improving an Unarmed Swordsage / Shadow Sun Ninja Build
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2011, 08:51:55 PM »
I like the whisper gnome more, because he can get titan fighting. It also seems to me like the 4th lvl of swordsage is more valuable than the second lvl of monk, plus you only need 11 lvls of monk abilities to get the maximum benefit of flurry of blows.