Author Topic: Binder, Warlock, Spirit Shaman  (Read 2927 times)

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Otto the Bugbear

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Binder, Warlock, Spirit Shaman
« on: April 20, 2011, 01:15:38 AM »
I was looking through the books the Binder, Warlock and Spirit Shaman are in and I was trying to recall what everyone's thoughts were on these classes. (For those unaware, I took a break from the game for a few years.)

I seem to remember the Warlock being neat but not that great power-wise or mechanically (perhaps outside a couple of powers).
I seem to remember the Binder being a bit of an underpowered 5th wheel (outside of a game breaking vestige from dragon).
I seem to remember the Spirit Shaman mostly being ignored.

I had a radical thought about these three classes -- ore more specifically their primary powers -- but I'd like to make sure this old gamer isn't totally off his rocker concerning the general opinion and power level of these three classes.

Solo

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Re: Binder, Warlock, Spirit Shaman
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2011, 01:17:28 AM »
They're all ok. Warlock is tier 4, Binder is tier 3, and Spirit Shaman is tier 2.

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veekie

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Re: Binder, Warlock, Spirit Shaman
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2011, 04:09:29 AM »
Yeah, Spirit Shaman tends to be ignored because its basically a stripped down Druid. If you're gonna be doing that sort of thing for optimization might as well get a full druid.
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[spoiler]
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[/spoiler]

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Otto the Bugbear

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Re: Binder, Warlock, Spirit Shaman
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2011, 09:34:32 AM »
Ok. That's what I thought, but wanted to be sure. And SS is really only tier 2 because of the spells it has access to IIRC. The class features and casting mechanic aren't what push it over the top.

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Re: Binder, Warlock, Spirit Shaman
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2011, 09:44:46 AM »
Ok. That's what I thought, but wanted to be sure. And SS is really only tier 2 because of the spells it has access to IIRC. The class features and casting mechanic aren't what push it over the top.
Pretty much. It's Tier 2 because it gets 9th-level spells from a Tier 1 list without many of the other goodies of the Druid. Kind of like the Sorcerer, really, except that it loses more in class features and less in spellcasting.
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Kajhera

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Re: Binder, Warlock, Spirit Shaman
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2011, 09:46:19 AM »
I slept with a spirit shaman NPC once. Erm, in game. He was a pleasantly useful companion, and didn't overshadow the party.

Naberius and Malphas make a binder dip exceptionally useful for many characters, and I think Zceryll (the truly powerful high-level alienist one) is actually online somewhere, rather than in Dragon.

Warlock, yes, that's pretty much right.

RobbyPants

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Re: Binder, Warlock, Spirit Shaman
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2011, 09:59:10 AM »
Yeah, warlocks are cute, but their biggest schitick is being able to do what they do all day long.  The problem is, they don't gain much benefit from that.  There's not a lot that they do that you need to spam it over and over.  Once you're past extreme low levels, you're better off using your standard action for a useful spell slot than for a weaker invocation.

You're right that there are a couple of pretty useful invocations, but most are somewhat blah.
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veekie

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Re: Binder, Warlock, Spirit Shaman
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2011, 05:53:36 PM »
Had a thought about more fundamental changes to the Warlock(well, granted it's not even really the warlock anymore beyond the concept).
Take away the invocations and blasts and the alignments.

Pacts - a packaged set of abilities every 5 levels. These improve like domains, you gain a level, you get the new ability. These abilities need not be at will, see Sanctions below. They may or may not be activated abilities. A passive ability works as well. Each Patron grants a set of Pacts. You may contract with any suitably powerful magical entity or cosmic force.

Marks - Gained every other level. Each mark is some minor utility ability like the majority of the useful invocations. These are at will or persistent changes to your character. A weak blast would be one of these(a stronger/flexible one would be a Pact)

Give Sanctions, a series of negative effects and costs. When you use the Pact you must obey it's sanction(chosen when you gain the pact), or pay the cost. Example being contracting to a devil and then needing to kill so that the death 'pays' for your pact use or the pact takes its due out of you. The sanction should be slightly more restrictive than the paladin's CoC, but you can opt out by choosing to pay the cost instead of losing your Pact benefits. Gives some meaning to the contracting fluff. Bonus, if you have a persistent Pact benefit keeping you alive...well you jolly well make sure you hold to the bargain eh.

Proof of Contract - An Item, Familiar or Sign that serves as the proof of contract. Used as focus for some Marks and Pacts. Losing or breaking the Proof of contract cuts you off from your highest level abilities until replaced(requiring some downtime).
Items get free enchantments.
Familiars are, well, familiars.
Signs are some telltale mark on you which show when you use your warlock abilities, and add some additional Marks while active. They also add an additional Sanction(which have the same effect as losing your Proof when broken).

I should stop posting at 4am, I'm rambling
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Otto the Bugbear

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Re: Binder, Warlock, Spirit Shaman
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2011, 10:48:49 PM »
That's sort of where I was going Veekie.

Take the main schtick of the Binder -- vestiges -- add in the main schtick of the Warlock (eldritch blast and invocations), throw in the casting mechanic of the Spirit Shaman and go from there.

For inspiration I started reading the 'designer's intent' thread over in Homebrew. Then I was unpacking my books from a recent move and flipping through them. I saw these three classes and thought about the comment that the sorcerer just shouldn't/couldn't exist with the wizard redesign from that thread. That's when I figured I might be able to combine the main mechanics into a viable class. (Not for that thread, just as a general thought.)

So, I started with just giving him vestiges bound at the same progression as the binder. (Levels 1-7 = 1 bound; levels 8-13 = 2 bound; levels 14-19 = 3 bound; level 20 = 4 bound.) Vestige level was stays the same too.

Next I just went with Eldritch Blast at the same progression. I thought about giving him more damage (1d6/level). Essence Level progressed at the same levels also. To start I just give him the blast shapes and eldritch essences. That was a bit thin, so I started creating a few more. Anyway, this really just covers his direct damage capabilities.

[spoiler]
Eldritch Essences
Least: Frightful Blast (shaken), Sickening Blast (sickened), Concussive Blast (trip), Thundering Blast (deafened)
Lesser: Beshadowed Blast (blind), Brimstone Blast (fire + catch fire), Hellrime Blast (cold + dex dmg), Arcane Chains (subject held)
Greater: Bewitching Blast (confused), Noxious Blast (nauseated), Repelling Blast (bull rush), Vitriolic Blast (acid + ignore SR)
Dark: Utterdark Blast (2 negative levels)

Blast Shapes
Least: Eldritch Spear (250 ft. range), Hideous Blow (channel into melee), Eldritch Fan (15 ft cone), Subdued Blast (still, silent)
Lesser: Eldritch Jump (jump to second target), Eldritch Burst (20 ft. burst around target), Eldritch Line (doesn't stop at initial target), Eldritch Wall (blast a line on surface to create wall effect)
Greater: Eldritch Cone (60 ft. cone), Eldritch Chain (jump to bunch of targets, -1d6 per jump), Eldritch Replica (effect hits target twice)
Dark: Eldritch Doom (enemies only within 50 ft. of target), Eldritch Celericy (swift action)

For some of these I simply and obviously used metamagic feats for inspiration.
[/spoiler]

The spellcasting chart is a direct copy of the Spirit Shaman for spells prepared and spells per day, but use the sorcerer spell list. I did this knowing the spell list would have to be pruned down quite a bit. With direct damage handled by eldritch blast, no need for many of the DD spells. The totally broken spells would be eliminated or nerfed.

Anyway, that's as far as I got. So far it looks very much like something that would make a fine class without being overwhelming. I haven't read the pacts again to make sure nothing is out of line, but that's easily corrected if there are, just like with spells. With the proper spell list (or spells nerfed) it should be easy to fine tune this into a nice power level with great fluff.

It should be called the Bindockaman.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 11:00:01 PM by Otto the Bugbear »