Author Topic: LA/Bloodline Buyoff & Gestalt - How do *you* handle it?  (Read 3560 times)

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Leviathan

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LA/Bloodline Buyoff & Gestalt - How do *you* handle it?
« on: April 19, 2011, 01:29:21 PM »
This cropped up into my head after doing some XP calculations about the upcoming game that I'm in.
How do you all handle LA & Bloodline buyoffs in Gestalt?

Assuming that LA templates take up one half of a Gestalt build then they seem to be a more cost-effective option than they are in normal since you're gaining abilities balanced to be equivalent to a class level, but you're paying the equivalent of one class' abilities for it (ie, you don't lose skills, BaB, HD etc).
However, buying them off again is far *less* cost effective than in a normal game, since the amount of XP that you pay is costing you two class levels worth of abilities rather than just one.
The same goes for Bloodlines, depending on the level thresholds involved a Major bloodline is costing you 1-2 levels (so 2-4 sets of class abilities) and unless you're really cheesing the Bloodline levels to get into PrCs etc early, you're likely only to be using half of the abilities that it grants.

So, what's the prevailing opinion on what constitutes a balanced way of using these in Gestalt? I can see a few possibilities, ranging from:
* Increasing Bloodline abilities by 50% or 100% across the board
* Allowing two bloodlines and counting the standard XP cost as buying off both bloodlines
* Cutting XP costs for Buyoffs by 1/3 or 1/2
* Allowing one level of buyoff to buyoff two instead (ie you take two LA+X templates (one on each side) and the standard buyoff XP kills both of them)


And that's just what my 2am addled brain has come up with. Anyone ever field-tested any kind of alterations like this?

CrimsonDeath

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Re: LA/Bloodline Buyoff & Gestalt - How do *you* handle it?
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2011, 05:21:51 PM »
My first suggestion would be not to allow LA and bloodlines in gestalt, and my second would be not to allow LA buyoff.  But that's clearly not what you want.

My third suggestion would be to cut LA costs in half and apply any LA to both sides.  Which way you round them probably isn't terribly important as long as you sum all your templates first.  (Either way, someone will have an incentive to add just one more +1 LA template.)  Using this model, I'd probably have bloodlines take up only one side, they'd be impossible to buy off (since they're technically not LA anyway), and the bloodline's increase to effective level for the purpose of determining class features would not stack with any increases due to the class level with which it coincides.  (To clarify that last bit, if you take your Bloodline level across from a Wizard level, it does not increase your caster level or advance your familiar's abilities.  If you take it across from a level of Master Specialist, it still doesn't increase your caster level, but it does advance familiar abilities.)

strider24seven

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Re: LA/Bloodline Buyoff & Gestalt - How do *you* handle it?
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2011, 06:02:42 PM »
I will give an answer to the Bloodline question that one of my DM's recently came up with with regards to Swift Hunter, Daring Outlaw, and other "dual-class" feats in gestalt:

Bloodlines should only advance class level-dependent abilities on one side of gestalt.  So if you are a Binder 17/Bloodline 3//Wizard 20, your Bloodline advances your Binder abilites, but not your Wizard CL or familiar abilites. 

Alternatively, you could take a tier-based approach to this:
Bloodlines advance all Tier 3 and below classes.
Bloodlines advance all Tier 2 class on the same side of the gestalt progression as the Bloodline levels.
Bloodlines do not advance Tier 1 classes at all. 

This tier-based approach would also work for LA and LA buyoff. 
Tier 3 and below can buy off LA at an accelerated progression (e.g. +2 LA is bought off at levels 4 and 6, +4 LA is bought off at 8, 14, 18, 20).   
Tier 2 can buy off LA for one half price
Tier 1 can buy off LA for the normal price. 

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: LA/Bloodline Buyoff & Gestalt - How do *you* handle it?
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2011, 06:25:33 PM »
Bloodlines are their own thing, gestalt shouldn't change that (it should help both sides). I don't find HD one one side and LA on the other for race unbalanced but it is for templates, so they take up both sides per ECL.
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CrimsonDeath

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Re: LA/Bloodline Buyoff & Gestalt - How do *you* handle it?
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2011, 06:32:39 PM »
Bloodlines are their own thing, gestalt shouldn't change that (it should help both sides).
To be clear, using the example above, a Binder 17/Bloodline 3//Wizard 20 would have an effective Binder level of 20 and a Wizard caster level of 23?

Leviathan

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Re: LA/Bloodline Buyoff & Gestalt - How do *you* handle it?
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2011, 12:05:48 AM »
Using this model, I'd probably have bloodlines take up only one side, they'd be impossible to buy off (since they're technically not LA anyway)

As a matter of interest, how would this work then? Buyoff for Bloodlines is the only method present in UA...
And I still say they're too weak in Gestalt, barring cheesing the ability level increases :)

CrimsonDeath

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Re: LA/Bloodline Buyoff & Gestalt - How do *you* handle it?
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2011, 02:08:32 AM »
I forgot that you interpret the Bloodline rules differently than I do.

Basically, when you gain a level of Bloodline, it would be treated exactly like a class level in a favored class, and you'd use the BAB, base saves, hit die, and skill points of whatever class level you added on the other side of the gestalt.

Widow

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Re: LA/Bloodline Buyoff & Gestalt - How do *you* handle it?
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2011, 03:05:21 AM »
My first suggestion would be not to allow LA and bloodlines in gestalt, and my second would be not to allow LA buyoff.  But that's clearly not what you want.

A little harsh.  Gestalt is the one time you can play something with a LA other than a sharn or slyph and still be a caster.  But also for this reason I don't see why you would need LA buyoff in a gestalt game.  You have a whole side to dump racial HD and LA (assuming that is how your DM is handling it) and the power added effect of buy off is not necessary in the power added gestalt environment.

I forgot that you interpret the Bloodline rules differently than I do.

Basically, when you gain a level of Bloodline, it would be treated exactly like a class level in a favored class, and you'd use the BAB, base saves, hit die, and skill points of whatever class level you added on the other side of the gestalt.

I agree.  They would count just like any other level.  And yes, they would add to any level based class ability on either "side".  Bloodlines are not LA and you should not be able to buy them off. 

If you DM is running LA on one side, I would still take the buy off and run.  You loss a single class worth of abilities to gain 2 class worth of abilities later.  It gets even crazier depending how the DM views things.  You can play something with racial HD and get classes at the same time.  This will allow you to buy-off the level far sooner than you normally would since HD don't normally count towards the buy off levels.  Take a black ethergaunt for example in a high level game.  They have 17HD and 3 LA.  Normally you would need 9 class levels on top of ECL 20 to buy off one level.  In gestalt you would have all 18 class levels necessary to buy-off all three levels pre-epic.  It would only put you 2 levels behind before figuring out the extra xp you would earn from being behind.

awaken DM golem

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Re: LA/Bloodline Buyoff & Gestalt - How do *you* handle it?
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2011, 08:36:29 PM »
This is certainly rules gray area.

Class X 17 / Bloodline 3  //  Class Y 17 / LA+3
... could qualify for a buyoff on both sides at the same time.
But I don't have access to UA. I'd like to see a rules quote before diving in.


LA+1 gets bought off by level 10.
LA+2 gets bought off by level 17-ish.
Racial Hit Dice delays either of these.

LA+3 gets bought off by level 24 or so.
Down by somewhat less than one level at level 20.

boomslang

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Re: LA/Bloodline Buyoff & Gestalt - How do *you* handle it?
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2011, 09:47:01 PM »
I've never actually seen bloodlines used in play, as the more conservative approach (take up a level, no HD, no BAB, no spellcasting) was used, and no one had thought of any cheese.

But in gestalt, using races as either monster classes on one side or hit dice and level adjustment the same as class levels works fairly well for races in all the games I've played, especially when all of the characters are monsters.

Broken templates are just broken, the ones built along the same lines as most races (like half dragon) essentially provide their level worth of decent class features. But allowing feral or lolth-touched or what have you is nearly always a terrible idea.

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Re: LA/Bloodline Buyoff & Gestalt - How do *you* handle it?
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2011, 02:47:18 PM »
Bloodlines are their own thing, gestalt shouldn't change that (it should help both sides).
To be clear, using the example above, a Binder 17/Bloodline 3//Wizard 20 would have an effective Binder level of 20 and a Wizard caster level of 23?
Yes at ECL20, except since your behind on xp, your allies are well on their way to epic by then. You trade xp for the equivalent of about a feat (improved binder) and an item (prayer beads).

Keep in mind the real powerhouse here is gestalt. Druid 20 // Wizard 20 is the baseline.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 02:51:58 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

CrimsonDeath

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Re: LA/Bloodline Buyoff & Gestalt - How do *you* handle it?
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2011, 05:10:20 PM »
Since it's a constant effect, it'd be about three items (Orange Ioun Stone, Ring of the Master Arcanist, and one more that does the same thing and stacks).  I also don't see how you're any farther behind your allies on their way to Epic, though.  You're still level 20, still ready for Epic Spellcasting next level.

Was there ever any Epic Binder support?

JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: LA/Bloodline Buyoff & Gestalt - How do *you* handle it?
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2011, 03:32:34 AM »
Was there ever any Epic Binder support?
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Widow

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Re: LA/Bloodline Buyoff & Gestalt - How do *you* handle it?
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2011, 04:14:01 AM »
Bloodlines are their own thing, gestalt shouldn't change that (it should help both sides).
To be clear, using the example above, a Binder 17/Bloodline 3//Wizard 20 would have an effective Binder level of 20 and a Wizard caster level of 23?
Yes at ECL20, except since your behind on xp, your allies are well on their way to epic by then. You trade xp for the equivalent of about a feat (improved binder) and an item (prayer beads).

Keep in mind the real powerhouse here is gestalt. Druid 20 // Wizard 20 is the baseline.

First off you are not behind in xp with the above example unless he is using the LA buy off.  In that case he will get more xp per encounter and be more like Binder 19/Wizard 19 with 3 free levels of bloodline.  Now I agree you can boost your caster level through equipment, but this still adds on top of that.

Second playing a simple binder 17/bloodline 3//wizard 20 is not where bloodlines is really optimized.  Your druid/wizard for example could go:

Druid 18/Master of Many forms 1/Nature's Warrior 1//Wizard 17/ Bloodlines 3

Or Druid 17/Master of Many forms 1/Nature's Warrior 1//Wizard 19  (3 Free levels of bloodlines)

Both Master of Many forms and Nature's warrior's level adds to druids wildshape level.  Wildshape in all three cases are level dependent abilities so bloodlines could end up adding +9 to wildshape which I would say is worth 3 levels of wizards without buy off or 1 level full level with buy off.

And this is before you get into Hellfire warlocks, war weavers, master spell theif tricks, fiend of possession, chameleon, and so on.  As always it is build dependent.

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Re: LA/Bloodline Buyoff & Gestalt - How do *you* handle it?
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2011, 09:37:57 PM »
Wildshape in all three cases are level dependent abilities so bloodlines could end up adding +9 to wildshape which I would say is worth 3 levels of wizards without buy off or 1 level full level with buy off.
No. There is a stacking issue. Keep in mind that those classes advance the druid's base class feature. They do not present their own 'pool' (like the elemental wildshapes). It's a common mistake, similar to how many people miss the analogous differences in Turn/Rebuke Undead.

And BL cost xp as levels. They don't count against ECL. Its tricky so see my handbook if you have any questions. 3 posts on BL is about my limit though. PBMC out
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

JaronK

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Re: LA/Bloodline Buyoff & Gestalt - How do *you* handle it?
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2011, 10:03:27 PM »
For what I'd do:

Bloodlines are totally normal.  You get a bloodline level which does nothing (except the CL bump and such) and doesn't increase your ECL at all.  Thus, you will now gain exp faster from here on out, eventually catching you up.  The bumps apply to all classes. 

For racial HD, I'd gestalt them like they're class levels.

For level adjust, I think putting it on one side only is too powerful in Gestalt, but I might accept having the ability to put LA on both sides, so an LA 3 character would lose one level entirely to LA and have one level that wasn't gestalted with anything.

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Widow

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Re: LA/Bloodline Buyoff & Gestalt - How do *you* handle it?
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2011, 12:06:19 AM »
And BL cost xp as levels. They don't count against ECL. Its tricky so see my handbook if you have any questions. 3 posts on BL is about my limit though. PBMC out

Except that the poster is running with the concept that they can be bought off like LA.  I fully understand and agree they are normal levels that cannot be bought off normally.

As for the druid stuff, I was not too certain at the time I posted it but just ran with it.  The point is bloodlines can be powerful and worth the level loss with the right build, especially in gestalt where you can have that many more classes that can benefit from them.  They certainly work well with my Fiend of possession builds.