Author Topic: How can a martial archer keep up with a Tome of Battle melee guy?  (Read 5452 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Endarire

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2171
    • Email
I don't mean Hood and I've read The Archery Handbook.

For someone who doesn't want to be a caster on the side, instead wanting to focus on archery, what official solutions are there?  I know about the homebrew Falling Star discipline, but the emphasis is on official material.

Common CO archer builds include the Archerficer, Cleric Archer, and ArchIvist, but I want someone who never needs to cast a spell (or use an item to cast a spell) under his own power, yet be effective.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: How can a martial archer keep up with a Tome of Battle melee guy?
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2011, 06:32:56 AM »
Bloodstorm Blade variant.  Power Attack and Full Attack with a Sling, and initiate Iron Heart maneuvers at pretty awesome range.

There's also Peerless Archer.

Something along those lines is pretty much mandatory.

KellKheraptis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2668
  • What's the matter? I thought you had me...
    • Email
Re: How can a martial archer keep up with a Tome of Battle melee guy?
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2011, 07:56:06 AM »
How about carnivore's soulbow build?  It can take down a Balor with 0 problems, with 0 spells cast, and VoP even.
BG's Resident Black Hatter
The Mango List Reborn!
My Warmage Trickery (coming soon!)
My PrC Pally Trickery (coming soon!)
The D&D Archive
-Work in progress!

Risada

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1827
  • Wearing this outfit in the name of SCIENCE!
    • Email
Re: How can a martial archer keep up with a Tome of Battle melee guy?
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2011, 09:24:10 AM »
How about some Swift Hunter build? You can get damage and some defense using Skirmish... and use stuff like Cyran Gliding Boots and Travel Devotion to get those full attacks coming...

Saeomon

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 292
  • A real rules lawyer
Re: How can a martial archer keep up with a Tome of Battle melee guy?
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2011, 10:02:05 AM »
How about carnivore's soulbow build?  It can take down a Balor with 0 problems, with 0 spells cast, and VoP even.

+1.

I believe the answer begins with a base of Soulknife 3/Monk 2, followed up by Soulbow 8 or even Soulbow 10.

The Flowing Blade, Monastic Training, and Tashalatora (applied to Soulbow) feats are all essential components, as is Zen Archery to make you SAD.

Though it can be done without using variants, it will likely work best with the Soulknife variant that lets you trade your Psychic Strike progression for bonus feats.

The real question is what should be added at the end to round out the build. It comes down to a choice between more Soulknife levels/a PrC that advances your Mind Blade features or a full BAB class/PrC.

The bottom line: I believe it can be done, but it won't be effortless like with a ToB character. Such a character seems like a lot of fun to me, though. But then I enjoy the idea of bringing Gun Fu to D&D.

KellKheraptis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2668
  • What's the matter? I thought you had me...
    • Email
Re: How can a martial archer keep up with a Tome of Battle melee guy?
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2011, 10:08:13 AM »
Here is the build in question, using Anthromorphic Bat as a race.  Enjoy playing Ratbat :)
BG's Resident Black Hatter
The Mango List Reborn!
My Warmage Trickery (coming soon!)
My PrC Pally Trickery (coming soon!)
The D&D Archive
-Work in progress!

Rejakor

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 610
    • Email
Re: How can a martial archer keep up with a Tome of Battle melee guy?
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2011, 10:15:20 AM »
Depends on how optimized the ToB guy is.  If you're a martial archer, you'll have to work a bit harder, but archer is one of the few things martial does well, it can just be a bit counterintuitive in how you build it.  Splitting is mandatory, as is Hank's Bow.  You probably want whirling frenzy, especially at lower levels.

It's not as good as a bloodstorm blade thrower, and archery tends to benefit a lot from spells due to the various ranger-only spells that make it good, but you can totally do it with only martial.  You're not going to be keeping up with the casters, and your damage output is probably going to be lower than the ubercharger or flask rogue, but you've got some neat tricks you can pull off, like sniping people through walls with brilliant arrows or long range mounted archery dickery.  You also get some neat spell-storing synergy, as with splitting you have more projectiles than even a furiously windmill-masturbating thrower rogue (at least til they get Palm Throw).

Without splitting or Hank's, martial archers would be a lot suckier.


Carnivore's mind archer is alright.  It seems to want a Serenity Paladin dip, though, just for all-aroundness.  It nicely gets around some of the weaknesses of VoP.  I don't know that it's really better than a martial archer, though.  They seem about the same, especially once you factor in gear.

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: How can a martial archer keep up with a Tome of Battle melee guy?
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2011, 03:40:47 PM »
Add some incarnate. Psychic warrior also does this quite well (see: Strength of My Enemy, Weapon of Energy, and a deep crystal elvencraft bow of the wintermoon).
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

ninjarabbit

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1442
    • Email
Re: How can a martial archer keep up with a Tome of Battle melee guy?
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2011, 08:55:13 PM »
ranger11/fighter4/scout5

Key feats:
weapon focus and specialization
ranged weapon mastery
educated and knowledge devotion
swift hunter
maybe zen archery if you want to dump dex

Saeomon

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 292
  • A real rules lawyer
Re: How can a martial archer keep up with a Tome of Battle melee guy?
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2011, 10:12:35 PM »
I don't mean Hood and I've read The Archery Handbook.

...I want someone who never needs to cast a spell (or use an item to cast a spell) under his own power, yet be effective.

With that in mind, I present the following. Is it the best? No. Is it optimized? Only to the best of my ability. I'm still a novice at char op.

What it does do is achieve the OP's quoted goal. No Spells, no psionic Powers, no maneuvers, nor any items that mimic those effects.

It's also has the benefit of almost guaranteed acceptance by any DM. No cheese. No reflavored feats or classes. No homebrew. No variants. The worst thing it does is dip into some setting-specific material.

So let's get down to brass tacks:

Elan Soulknife 4/Monk 2/Soulbow 10/Illumine Soul 4
[spoiler]
Stats (32 point buy)
Str: 10
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 18
Cha: 10

Class Features
CL1 (Soulknife 1): Mind Blade, Weapon Focus (Mind Blade), Wild Talent
CL2 (Soulknife 2): Throw Mind Blade
CL3 (Monk 1): Bonus Feat, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike
CL4 (Monk 2): Bonus Feat, Evasion
CL5 (Soulknife 3): Psychic Strike +1d8
CL6 (Soulbow 1): Mind Arrow, Bonus Feat
CL7 (Soulbow 2): Mind Arrow Enhancement (+1 Bonus Equivalent Ability)
CL8 (Soulbow 3): +1 Mind Arrow, Bonus Feat
CL9 (Soulbow 4): Close Combat Shot
CL10 (Soulbow 5): Bonus Feat
CL 11 (Soulbow 6): Mind Arrow Enhancement (+2 Bonus Equivalent Ability)
CL 12 (Soulbow 7): +2 Mind Arrow, Bonus Feat
CL 13 (Soulbow 8): Phase Arrow
CL 14 (Illumine Soul 1): Positive Energy Conduit, Improved Mind Blade, Psychic Strike +1d8
CL 15 (Illumine Soul 2): Positive Energy Ray, Death Ward
CL 16 (Illumine Soul 3): Undead Mind Bane
CL 17 (Illumine Soul 4): Positive Energy Healing, Psychic Strike +2d8
CL 18 (Soulknife 4): Mind Blade +1
CL 19 (Soulbow 9): Bonus Feat
CL 20 (Soulbow 10): Mind Arrow Enhancement (+3 Bonus Equivalent Ability)

Cumulative Feats By Level
Italicized feats = feats gained by virtue of a class feature
CL1 (Soulknife 1): Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (Mind Blade), Wild Talent
CL2 (Soulknife 2):
CL3 (Monk 1): Flowing Blade, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
CL4 (Monk 2): Combat Reflexes
CL5 (Soulknife 3):
CL6 (Soulbow 1): Monastic Training (Soulbow), Zen Archery
CL7 (Soulbow 2):
CL8 (Soulbow 3): Precise Shot
CL9 (Soulbow 4): Tashalatora (Soulbow)
CL10 (Soulbow 5): Psionic Shot
CL 11 (Soulbow 6):
CL 12 (Soulbow 7): Psionic Meditation, Fell Shot
CL 13 (Soulbow 8):
CL 14 (Illumine Soul 1):
CL 15 (Illumine Soul 2): Mind Cleave
CL 16 (Illumine Soul 3):
CL 17 (Illumine Soul 4):
CL 18 (Soulknife 4): Woodland Archer
CL 19 (Soulbow 9): Greater Psionic Shot
CL 20 (Soulbow 10):

BAB and Saves by Level
CL1 (Soulknife 1): +0, Fort +0, Ref +2, Will +2
CL2 (Soulknife 2): +1, Fort +0, Ref +3, Will +3
CL3 (Monk 1): +1, Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +5
CL4 (Monk 2): +2, Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +6
CL5 (Soulknife 3): +3, Fort +4, Ref +7, Will +7
CL6 (Soulbow 1): +3, Fort +4, Ref +9, Will +9
CL7 (Soulbow 2): +4, Fort +4, Ref +10, Will +10
CL8 (Soulbow 3): +5, Fort +5, Ref +10, Will +10
CL9 (Soulbow 4): +6/+1, Fort +5, Ref +11, Will +11
CL10 (Soulbow 5): +6/+1, Fort +5, Ref +11, Will +11
CL 11 (Soulbow 6): +7/+2, Fort +6, Ref +12, Will +12
CL 12 (Soulbow 7): +8/+3, Fort +6, Ref +12, Will +12
CL 13 (Soulbow 8): +9/+4, Fort +6, Ref +13, Will +13
CL 14 (Illumine Soul 1): +9/+4, Fort +8, Ref +13, Will +15
CL 15 (Illumine Soul 2): +10/+5, Fort +9, Ref +13, Will +16
CL 16 (Illumine Soul 3): +11/+6/+1, Fort +9, Ref +14, Will +16
CL 17 (Illumine Soul 4): +12/+7/+2, Fort +10, Ref +14, Will +16
CL 18 (Soulknife 4): +13/+8/+3, Fort +10, Ref +15, Will +17
CL 19 (Soulbow 9): +13/+8/+3, Fort +11, Ref +15, Will +17
CL 20 (Soulbow 10): +14/+9/+4, Fort +11, Ref +16, Will +18

Psychic Strike, Mind Blade and Mind Arrow Enhancement Progressions
CL1 (Soulknife 1):
CL2 (Soulknife 2):
CL3 (Monk 1):
CL4 (Monk 2):
CL5 (Soulknife 3): Psychic Strike +1d8
CL6 (Soulbow 1):
CL7 (Soulbow 2): Mind Arrow enhancement +1
CL8 (Soulbow 3): +1 Mind Arrow/Mind Blade
CL9 (Soulbow 4):
CL10 (Soulbow 5):
CL 11 (Soulbow 6): Mind Arrow enhancement +2
CL 12 (Soulbow 7): +2 Mind Arrow/Mind Blade
CL 13 (Soulbow 8):
CL 14 (Illumine Soul 1): +3 Mind Arrow/Mind Blade; Psychic Strike +2d8
CL 15 (Illumine Soul 2):
CL 16 (Illumine Soul 3): Mind Blade enhancement +1
CL 17 (Illumine Soul 4): Psychic Strike +3d8
CL 18 (Soulknife 4): +4 Mind Arrow/Mind Blade
CL 19 (Soulbow 9):
CL 20 (Soulbow 10): Mind Arrow enhancement +3

Overall Analysis
A viable build. Good but not great.

Key tactics are to either toss out as many Mind Arrows as possible per round, or to deal extra single-target damage with a combination of Psychic Strike and Psionic Shot. This is the closest I can get it to the power and versatility of Martial Maneuvers.

Why Elan? To make it completely gear-independent. Strip this character of all its equipment and it will be just fine.

Other benefits include being quite tough to kill, and capable in both the middle of melee and at a distance.

The downsides: well, it would have an XP penalty if you're playing with those rules. But every group I've ever been in waives those rules. Heh...I actually forgot to take that into account for that very reason. I'd fix it, but...I'm tired. It also doesn't really come into its own as quickly as I'd like.

In the end, it looks fun to play to me, and maybe that's all it is: a fun concept. I like the idea and I like that it's not a mix of a half-dozen dips. So it's the best I can do to meet the goal of effectiveness and still maintain that simplicity of design.
[/spoiler]

Solo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2684
  • Solo the Sorcelator, at your service
Re: How can a martial archer keep up with a Tome of Battle melee guy?
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2011, 10:33:21 PM »
Meh. Ranger3/Soulknife2/Soulbow10/Kensai5 works better.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Unbeliever

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 766
Re: How can a martial archer keep up with a Tome of Battle melee guy?
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2011, 10:43:22 PM »
Meh. Ranger3/Soulknife2/Soulbow10/Kensai5 works better.
B/c Kensai gives you a better weapon enhancement to lay on your mind bow thingy?

Solo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2684
  • Solo the Sorcelator, at your service
Re: How can a martial archer keep up with a Tome of Battle melee guy?
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2011, 10:43:43 PM »
Yes.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Saeomon

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 292
  • A real rules lawyer
Re: How can a martial archer keep up with a Tome of Battle melee guy?
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2011, 11:04:39 PM »
Meh. Ranger3/Soulknife2/Soulbow10/Kensai5 works better.

Absolutely, positively agree with you 100%. Yours is the superior build, and it's one with which I'm familiar.

I just don't like the whole "code of conduct" thing. Pure personal preference derived from dealing with DMs who believe that such things means they get to shove a pole up your character's ass and play you like a puppet. :)

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: How can a martial archer keep up with a Tome of Battle melee guy?
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2011, 06:04:14 PM »
Meh. Ranger3/Soulknife2/Soulbow10/Kensai5 works better.

Absolutely, positively agree with you 100%. Yours is the superior build, and it's one with which I'm familiar.

I just don't like the whole "code of conduct" thing. Pure personal preference derived from dealing with DMs who believe that such things means they get to shove a pole up your character's ass and play you like a puppet. :)
+1

...million.

I hate DMs like that. If you implicitly trust your DM or he'll allow you to play with a very loose CoC (or none at all), then by all means.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

nijineko

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 887
  • two strange quarks short of a graviton...
Re: How can a martial archer keep up with a Tome of Battle melee guy?
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2011, 03:05:36 AM »
or get retentive on the dm, and hand out a definitions sheet with your coc defining how each critical word is intended and otherwise reach a mutual concensus on the degree of alignmentism ahead of time. cause if they define alignment different than you, the dm will win, if only by the hammer.
arukibito ga michi wo erabu no ka, michi ga arukibito wo erabu no deshou ka?
Never game alone again!
KadoKado! Game for gifts!
The Ultimate Dice Rolling Engine

zook1shoe

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 784
    • Email
Re: How can a martial archer keep up with a Tome of Battle melee guy?
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2011, 03:08:30 AM »
Use an aptitude bow, when get splitting ASAP!

nijineko

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 887
  • two strange quarks short of a graviton...
Re: How can a martial archer keep up with a Tome of Battle melee guy?
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2011, 03:58:05 AM »
oh, and the bat build has to take monastic training at first character level to be valid, does it not? or was that first monk level?
arukibito ga michi wo erabu no ka, michi ga arukibito wo erabu no deshou ka?
Never game alone again!
KadoKado! Game for gifts!
The Ultimate Dice Rolling Engine


nijineko

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 887
  • two strange quarks short of a graviton...
Re: How can a martial archer keep up with a Tome of Battle melee guy?
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2011, 04:23:51 AM »
en taro adun.
arukibito ga michi wo erabu no ka, michi ga arukibito wo erabu no deshou ka?
Never game alone again!
KadoKado! Game for gifts!
The Ultimate Dice Rolling Engine