Author Topic: What are benchmarks for gishes?  (Read 6684 times)

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CrimsonDeath

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2011, 10:11:05 AM »
In that case, T3-4 gishes would be the type of characters with full levels in classes like Spellsword, Dragonslayer, War Mind, or Green Star Adept that grant about half casting and still increase combat abilities.  A Jade Phoenix Mage with more of a focus on maneuvers than spells would probably qualify too.

Really, about what it boils down to is that the tiers generally break down around spell access and ability to abuse the action economy.
I'd keep JPM out of that list, by default it's 8/10 casting not 5/10. It's also possible to qualify for it without expending a level using feats and the class its self is a 4/5s advancement in exchange for extra hp points, +3 bab, free Empower Spell every encounter, and a infinite duration 5th level spell that grants DR 10/evil. The +3 IL means better maneuvers earlier (via items if need be) and depending how you took your levels you could even snag a 6th level stance, such as Aura of Order for a "take 11" option on everything. It is a fry cry from everything else you just tried comparing it too.

Five levels in JPM & Abjuration Champion are about the standard for gishing out these days. 9/10 casting, all the above plus AC's moar hp, AC so high many CR 20 monsters have problems hitting you, and free extended & quickened abjuration spells. You have an easy four levels to dip around in caster PrCs to pick up other abilities and to work out how you want to obtain that missing point of BAB.
That's why I specified a JPM that focuses on maneuvers.  I was thinking something like Sorcerer 4/Crusader 6/JPM 10.  Yeah, it's not optimal, and that's why it's around a T3.

MalcolmSprye

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2011, 01:38:44 PM »
In that case, T3-4 gishes would be the type of characters with full levels in classes like Spellsword, Dragonslayer, War Mind, or Green Star Adept that grant about half casting and still increase combat abilities.  A Jade Phoenix Mage with more of a focus on maneuvers than spells would probably qualify too.

Really, about what it boils down to is that the tiers generally break down around spell access and ability to abuse the action economy.
I'd keep JPM out of that list, by default it's 8/10 casting not 5/10. It's also possible to qualify for it without expending a level using feats and the class its self is a 4/5s advancement in exchange for extra hp points, +3 bab, free Empower Spell every encounter, and a infinite duration 5th level spell that grants DR 10/evil. The +3 IL means better maneuvers earlier (via items if need be) and depending how you took your levels you could even snag a 6th level stance, such as Aura of Order for a "take 11" option on everything. It is a fry cry from everything else you just tried comparing it too.

Five levels in JPM & Abjuration Champion are about the standard for gishing out these days. 9/10 casting, all the above plus AC's moar hp, AC so high many CR 20 monsters have problems hitting you, and free extended & quickened abjuration spells. You have an easy four levels to dip around in caster PrCs to pick up other abilities and to work out how you want to obtain that missing point of BAB.
That's why I specified a JPM that focuses on maneuvers.  I was thinking something like Sorcerer 4/Crusader 6/JPM 10.  Yeah, it's not optimal, and that's why it's around a T3.

Excellent!  I like this type of interchange.  It helps paint a clearer picture of the field to see how power changes for a single PrC build based on what you choose to focus on.

KellKheraptis

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2011, 03:41:34 PM »
Some of those classes also ramp up considerably on fast progression PrC's.  Take the JPM for example.  Fairly strong to begin with.  Now butt it onto the Shadow Templar from Dark Sun.  End with Abjurant Champion.  Fairly simple build : Crusader 5/Shadow Templar 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 4/Abjurant Champion 5/JPM 5-9
-9th level spells
-CL and BAB of 19
-Fort 11/Ref 5/Will 10 base saves (not quite a druid or cleric, but close), effectively 13 Fort as Great Fortitude is a prereq for Shadow Templar, and Will gets a free +2 for 3000 gp
-IL of 17, for a 9th level Devoted Spirit or Desert Wind maneuver

Sounds sexy to me.
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2011, 03:54:11 PM »
Psychic warriors are base T3, though they're the strongest in the tier, on average. They're consummate gishes and can keep up with most wizards in actual games, remaining viable all the way to epic (assuming you know how to work around their weaknesses, which is the trick).

When you start adding in the various psion powers they're able to grab (which includes wizard spells through spell-to-power erudite), mantled warrior, soulbound weapon, and their ability to manifest 9th level equivalent powers via augmentation, you can bump them up to T2 with reasonable efficiency. This is doubly true when you have access to power point recharge.

Linked Power, Schism, and psicrystal buffage all help them overcome the action efficiency disadvantage inherent to gishes as well.
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SorO_Lost

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2011, 09:16:27 PM »
Some of those classes also ramp up considerably on fast progression PrC's.
Sublime Chord is a classic.

Bard 8 / Crusader 1 / JPM 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / Abjuration Champion 5 / JPM +4
The augmentation of swift action Dragonfire is pretty powerful. Poly your self into a Hydra and sing away.
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[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
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Unbeliever

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2011, 09:41:41 PM »
+1 Lycanthromancer

PsiWarrior always strikes me as a solid pre-built gish.  To some extent b/c it has the action economy needed for buffing either built-in or easily acquired as well as some bonus feats. 

So, if looking for benchmarks, I'd look at a decent Psywar of the appropriate level, and make sure to build towards that.  If I'm worse in some regard than the Psywar, I'd want it made up in some other place.  E.g., I might get more powerful casting (Sublime Chord, etc.) in exchange for worse action economy or fewer combat options through feats (e.g., Shocktrooper).

MalcolmSprye

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2011, 03:06:11 AM »
@ Soro and Kell
What Tiers do you feel those build fit into?

awaken DM golem

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #27 on: April 18, 2011, 08:38:09 PM »
El-cheapo psionic Gish:

Ardent 4 / +1 BAB class 2 / and then combo 2 of
the 3 full BAB psi PrCs that only lose one ML.
Practiced Manifester feat makes up the 4 lost ML.
Still gets the +19 BAB and full 8s and 9s with the Mind's Eye updates.
Minimal feat slot investment, but half the powers of a Cleric or Druid.

The power picks can put this into Tier 2.
It's more likely to be a lower Tier and not just for flavor reasons.

juton

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #28 on: April 18, 2011, 11:30:06 PM »
I've often wondered how many caster levels a Wizard could lose and still be Tier 1. I think it's actually a variable number, at level 9 you get a lot of abilities that can wreck havoc with the game, a 9th level Wizard can party with a 11th or perhaps even a 13th level group and still contribute, maybe even break the game at certain points. Before level 9 losing any more than 2 caster levels is incredibly frustrating because your single class peers are out pacing your spell casting by such a large extent. So I think a well made Wizard Gish is still Tier 1, and well made Sorcerer Gish is Tier 2, they may be less powerful than their single caster counterparts but they are still powerful enough to work with them and not be completely overshadowed.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2011, 11:37:55 PM »
I've often wondered how many caster levels a Wizard could lose and still be Tier 1. I think it's actually a variable number, at level 9 you get a lot of abilities that can wreck havoc with the game, a 9th level Wizard can party with a 11th or perhaps even a 13th level group and still contribute, maybe even break the game at certain points. Before level 9 losing any more than 2 caster levels is incredibly frustrating because your single class peers are out pacing your spell casting by such a large extent. So I think a well made Wizard Gish is still Tier 1, and well made Sorcerer Gish is Tier 2, they may be less powerful than their single caster counterparts but they are still powerful enough to work with them and not be completely overshadowed.
Really, this depends on how creatively you abuse your spells.

There are lots of really powerful 1st and 2nd level spells if you use them correctly. Grease and Silent Image can both trivialize a number of encounters, and the list snowballs as you add spell-levels.

So, really, as long as you have good system mastery and a vivid imagination you can pull this off as long as you have at least 1 CL.
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SorO_Lost

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2011, 11:42:31 PM »
@ Soro and Kell
What Tiers do you feel those build fit into?
I'm not much of a tiers guy but I'd rationalize it as (Highest Teir Used - 1) if non-ToB. Same tier if ToB.

The reasoning is simple. You lose world altering spells for a level or two in exchange for a focus on punching people in the face. It is a loss of out of combat power for pure combat power. Given you can have pure combat power by resting off plane after each fight or even based on the simple concept you just mixed a Teir 4 or worse into your overall abilities, it really is a loss.

The reason I don't say lower it for ToB is because we are specifically talking about the JPM class at this point. There are PRCs that decrease your ranking, some that increase your ranking (such as Sublime Chord) and some that break even. I consider JPM to be powerful enough to be a no change aspect.

You can take those questions over to the buried PrC Tiers thread if you want more advice.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

MalcolmSprye

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2011, 03:06:20 AM »
@ Soro and Kell
What Tiers do you feel those build fit into?
I'm not much of a tiers guy but I'd rationalize it as (Highest Teir Used - 1) if non-ToB. Same tier if ToB.

The reasoning is simple. You lose world altering spells for a level or two in exchange for a focus on punching people in the face. It is a loss of out of combat power for pure combat power. Given you can have pure combat power by resting off plane after each fight or even based on the simple concept you just mixed a Teir 4 or worse into your overall abilities, it really is a loss.

The reason I don't say lower it for ToB is because we are specifically talking about the JPM class at this point. There are PRCs that decrease your ranking, some that increase your ranking (such as Sublime Chord) and some that break even. I consider JPM to be powerful enough to be a no change aspect.

You can take those questions over to the buried PrC Tiers thread if you want more advice.

Yeah, I've read them, and they're good as far as they go... but most gish builds are an amalgamation of 5 different classes/PrC's which made it hard for me to figure out what they're really capable of, and more to the point what builds a person should consider playing for a given power level of campaign.