Author Topic: What are benchmarks for gishes?  (Read 6681 times)

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MalcolmSprye

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What are benchmarks for gishes?
« on: April 14, 2011, 02:30:10 PM »
So, I see people talking about various gish builds, and optimizing them, but I have trouble figuring out where they fit in the overall power scheme.

What gishes fit in a tier 1 campaign?  tier 3? tier 5?
  What metrics should be used to categorize them?
  BAB/Spell Level/ Maneuver Level seem like a good starting point?
 How do things that reduce the impact of MAD affect a build's power level?




Hallack

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2011, 03:12:19 PM »
I think you pretty much answered your own question.

Look at the abilities of the particular gish compared to their non-gish counterparts particularly regarding the bits like spells, maneuvers, number of attacks, etc...
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MalcolmSprye

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2011, 03:37:50 PM »
I think you pretty much answered your own question.

Look at the abilities of the particular gish compared to their non-gish counterparts particularly regarding the bits like spells, maneuvers, number of attacks, etc...
I think I answered my own question about what should be looked at... but I certainly didn't answer the question of how those metrics will translate into placing a gish build into a tier.  6th level spells + 6th level maneuvers + 18BAB = what tier? 9/9/15 = what tier?  9/0/15? 4/0/16? etc.....
Gish builds tend to be heavily multiclassed... so looking at the base classes doesn't always help much.

Rejakor

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2011, 03:50:35 PM »
Most gishes are better than one trick pony melee combatants but way worse than full casters.

Crappy gishes don't do anything well (lots of these, especially the ones that rely on arcane strike).

Very few gishes, such as the Chrono-Legionnaire or Mecha-Hood, are actually as good as casters at beating things up.

Hallack

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2011, 04:33:00 PM »
I figure most well built gishes are going to be solidly in the Tier 2 area of things.  Just based on breadth of ability plus spells.

Those that maintain 9th level spell progression in addition to their other goodies will probably maintain their Tier 1 status. 

Your 6th level manuever/6th level spell/ 18BAB is probably going to be high Tier 3 or low Tier 2 depending on its particulars in my opinion.
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CrimsonDeath

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2011, 04:48:55 PM »
As I understand it, a "gish" has two main components that must be achieved by level 20: BAB +16 and level 9 spells.  There are a couple of exceptions (like Swiftblades), but that's the general rule.  As much multiclassing as there is between melee and caster classes, saves tend to take care of themselves.

Part of the point of a gish is to sacrifice one form of versatility for another.  You give up some of your spells known/spell slots for the ability to pick up a weapon and wade into combat when spells aren't as effective.

A gish wouldn't fit in a T5 campaign, as the closest thing to a T5 spellcaster is an unoptimized Truenamer.  I probably wouldn't try one in a T4 either since that's where the Adept and Paladin like to hang out, and a gish build would step on both their toes.

For your example of level 6 spells and maneuvers, that would probably fit in around T3 with the Bard, Psychic Warrior, and Duskblade, although I generally wouldn't consider it a gish.  This would probably also be a good tier for characters that would fulfill the technical requirements of a gish that I outlined above but get a slow start.  One example would be a build I tossed together but never played: Bard 4/Crusader 1/Spellsword 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 2/Abjurant Champion 3/Sublime Chord 2/Jade Phoenix Mage +8.  You get one level 9 spell at level 20, level 5 spells don't show up until level 11, Sublime Chords get fewer spells per day than Sorcerers, you get very few maneuvers (very late, to maximize Initiator Level) from a limited selection of disciplines, Abjurant Champion doesn't synergize very well with Bard, and you'll probably need Able Learner and a decent Intelligence to hit the Sublime Chord prerequisites with such limited skill lists and dearth of base skill points.

True Gish builds (those conforming to the requirements above) are less overpowering at T1 and T2 and can probably be classified according to how they get their spells.  A good T2 gish might be Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8.  You still put off level 9 spells until level 20, but you have a lot more synergy-- Charisma to all saves and number of turning attempts (for Divine feats), Spellsword's ASF reduction actually accomplishes something for Sorcerer, and Sorcerer works better with Abjurant Champion.  However, due to the nature of Sorcerer casting, you're limited in the number of tricks you can pull off, and a good number of your spells will probably involve buffing yourself rather than playing battlefield control.  A Wizard-based build may fit better into a T1 game thanks to the flexibility of changing your prepared spells every day and lack of hard limit on unique spells known.

The archetypal psionic gish at this point would probably be Psion 6/Anarchic Initiate 4/Illithid Slayer 10-- notable for only losing one manifester level.  It's also pretty light on required feats and skill points and uses a better casting stat than the Sorcerer build above.  Depending on your power setup, this one could fit pretty well into a T1 campaign.  (You'll probably be relegated to the Big Dumb Fighter role, but you'll be one of the smartest BDFs around.)  Depending on your power setup, you can abuse the action economy almost as much as a Wizard, Ruby Knight Vindicator, or Swiftblade.  (Specifically, he can use Expanded Knowledge: Dimension Hop (or Hidden Talent if it's allowed) + Divert Teleport for cheap, action-efficient tactical-level teleportation and Schism + Control Body + Solicit Psicrystal to essentially take two and a half full rounds of actions per round-- these are some of the archetypal tricks of the Chrono Legionnaire.  The less said about Metapower Synchronicity Linked Power Synchronicity, the better-- it's basically an infinite action loop until you run out of PP.  Recharge setups may allow him to blow nearly all his PP each encounter, if he can control how much time he has between encounters.)

Speaking of the Swiftblade, I called it out at the top as being an exception to the BAB +16/level 9 spells rule.  You can build a Swiftblade that gets level 9 spells but it's one of the few classes that's worth giving them up because the capstone lets you cast Haste out of a level 6 spell slot for a one-round time stop, with higher-level spell slots increasing the duration by one round each.  A level 8 spell slot would stop time for 3 rounds, roughly the expected duration of a regular Time Stop.  The archetypal Swiftblade build would be Wizard 6/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion 4, which gets BAB +17 and caster level 16.  (Sorcerer also works.  If you wanted, you could also start with Transmuter 4/Master Specialist 2, although you'd probably want to start with a race that grants some martial weapon proficiencies.)

Another thing to consider for Gish builds is what level they're going to see play.  For the first six levels, the Swiftblade is behind the power curve due to what look like poor feat choices, and the Paladin/Sorcerer is probably about on par with a single-class character because of the efficiency of low-level physical combat and the effectiveness of low-level buffs.  At the transition from low to mid levels, gishes will still be a bit weaker than full casters because of the resources "wasted" on developing their combat abilities.  Even at high level play, they may still technically be weaker than full casters, particularly those that take full casting prestige classes to inflate their power further (or even learn spells to duplicate gish abilities), although a gish may require less maintenance to keep him fighting effectively.

You may notice that I haven't mentioned any divine casters.  That's because Cleric and Druid are basically gish-in-a-can.  Cleric can cast Divine Power and have full BAB (alongside full casting), while Druid can Wild Shape and, since a full attack now consists entirely of natural weapons, basically ignore BAB except for Power Attack limits (and also have full casting).

Hopefullly, someone else will come in behind me and fill in some of the gaps.  So far, I haven't had much experience at playing a high-level caster, and the highest-level caster I have played certainly wasn't T1.  (Maybe a low T2.)
« Last Edit: April 14, 2011, 04:53:09 PM by CrimsonDeath »

altpersona

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2011, 06:30:48 PM »
clerics get full bab? what books that from?
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Bozwevial

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2011, 06:33:27 PM »
clerics get full bab? what books that from?
Player's Handbook, page 224. :P

ninjarabbit

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2011, 07:03:13 PM »
Generally speaking an arcane gish should be able to do the following:
-16+ BAB
-9th level spells (swiftblade is an exception because its capstone ability is basically a 13th level spell)
-Damage output on par with a barbarian (power attack + knowledge devotion + wraithstrike + arcane strike while polymorphed into a 12 headed hydra for example)
-Able to buff up fairly quickly (abjurant champion, swiftblade, quicken spell, certain spells with swift/immediate actions like greater mirror image, long term buffs), having all the buffs in the world doesn't do you any good if it takes you forever to buff up.
-Able to function to a degree without magical buffs so that dispel magic and dead magic zones won't completely ruin your day.
-Generaly able to function independently with little or no assistance from the party wizard or cleric.

SorO_Lost

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2011, 07:33:38 PM »
I consider the +16BAB very subjective.

Core wise, the paladin, ranger, and bard set the standard for combination of combat and spells. "gish" is picking up the melee aspect with being a stronger caster than those classes.

A. Has spells.
7th level or better. Aim for 9th by level 20.

B. Viable in combat.
With the number of superior options to a full attack. BAB takes a back seat in all but hit chance. Mindful 3/4 BAB is core's consideration for melee useful and Martial Aptitude grants a +3 bonus into it's self.

Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

MalcolmSprye

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2011, 08:12:00 PM »
So it seems like a common opinion is that all gishes are tier 1 or 2?  All of the critereon people have listed put them above bards and other tier 3's.  That seems odd.  What do you call something in Tiers 3 and below that can viably(for its tier) cast and fight?

Do you not still call a tier 3 caster class (or PrC) a caster?  I was under the impression that categories like caster, gish, etc. were descriptions of modus operandai... not power level.

For the purposes of this thread, I will be using "gish" to mean any build whose goal is to both cast spells and fight physically.

It seems some people have mistaken the topic of this thread; the topic is NOT what makes a gish build "viable".... if you want to think in terms of viability, the question is: "What makes a gish build viable in a given tier of campaign ".  The question stems from the relative complexity of a lot of these builds, which make it hard (at least for me), to gauge where they'll fall in the power spectrum.

I was hoping for answers along the lines of: "Range X-Y fall into tier 1-2", "Range P-Q fall into tier 3-4", "Range F-G suck and fall into 5 -6".  Of course those ranges represent complex measures, but I was hoping for answers that would help judge builds.

Endarire

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2011, 08:22:50 PM »
A Wizard with polymorph and co is a gish with minimal BAB.  A Psion with metamorphosis is too, though Psions have vigor + share pain to aid their survivability.
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Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

awaken DM golem

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2011, 08:27:30 PM »
The +16 BAB by level 20, is to get the 4 attacks in Epic.

The 9th level spells by level 20, is an early Caelic Commandments
type thing, crossed with the obvious pick of Epic Spells feat at level 21.

Carnivore "gave" up these targets, any number of times,
on builds that did something else better. And why not ?!


I mean a Feat Rogue 1 / Ardent 10 with Dom Ideal / Thrallherd 10 ... is borkt
and isn't an obvious gish, but it'll do. You could go either class to 10 first.

Caelic

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2011, 08:37:22 PM »
The essential problem with even a well-built gish is economy of actions.  Actions that a gish spends engaging in melee are not being spent engaging in spellcasting; thus, while a gish with a 16 BAB and ninth level spellcasting should in theory be more powerful than a standard wizard, in practice he tends to wind up being less powerful.

Endarire

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2011, 08:45:45 PM »
What's this 'Mecha-Hood?'
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

KellKheraptis

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2011, 08:51:04 PM »
What's this 'Mecha-Hood?'

Wonder if he means the Neo-Trancer, which is also a Hood, and a Chrono-Legionaire, and a perfectly viable full manifester :)
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CrimsonDeath

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2011, 09:07:37 PM »
Do you not still call a tier 3 caster class (or PrC) a caster?  I was under the impression that categories like caster, gish, etc. were descriptions of modus operandai... not power level.

For the purposes of this thread, I will be using "gish" to mean any build whose goal is to both cast spells and fight physically.
In that case, T3-4 gishes would be the type of characters with full levels in classes like Spellsword, Dragonslayer, War Mind, or Green Star Adept that grant about half casting and still increase combat abilities.  A Jade Phoenix Mage with more of a focus on maneuvers than spells would probably qualify too.

Really, about what it boils down to is that the tiers generally break down around spell access and ability to abuse the action economy.

SorO_Lost

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2011, 02:16:57 AM »
In that case, T3-4 gishes would be the type of characters with full levels in classes like Spellsword, Dragonslayer, War Mind, or Green Star Adept that grant about half casting and still increase combat abilities.  A Jade Phoenix Mage with more of a focus on maneuvers than spells would probably qualify too.

Really, about what it boils down to is that the tiers generally break down around spell access and ability to abuse the action economy.
I'd keep JPM out of that list, by default it's 8/10 casting not 5/10. It's also possible to qualify for it without expending a level using feats and the class its self is a 4/5s advancement in exchange for extra hp points, +3 bab, free Empower Spell every encounter, and a infinite duration 5th level spell that grants DR 10/evil. The +3 IL means better maneuvers earlier (via items if need be) and depending how you took your levels you could even snag a 6th level stance, such as Aura of Order for a "take 11" option on everything. It is a fry cry from everything else you just tried comparing it too.

Five levels in JPM & Abjuration Champion are about the standard for gishing out these days. 9/10 casting, all the above plus AC's moar hp, AC so high many CR 20 monsters have problems hitting you, and free extended & quickened abjuration spells. You have an easy four levels to dip around in caster PrCs to pick up other abilities and to work out how you want to obtain that missing point of BAB.

Legacy Champion deserves a huge mention too. 5/6 casting and improves X class's effects. An example would be Wizard4/Warblade1/JPM2/AC5/LC6/JPM3 stacking LC's bonus to AC. Magic Vested Greater Lumonious Armor & Shield would give an effective +43 AC counting the attack penalty.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

X-Codes

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2011, 05:06:35 AM »
The essential problem with even a well-built gish is economy of actions.  Actions that a gish spends engaging in melee are not being spent engaging in spellcasting; thus, while a gish with a 16 BAB and ninth level spellcasting should in theory be more powerful than a standard wizard, in practice he tends to wind up being less powerful.
Yes, no Gish is a Tier 1 Character unless they happen to be a Wizard that casts Persistent Draconic Polymorph and smack things on occasion for shits and giggles.

A Tier 2 Gish is something with a Wizard, Cleric, or Psion base that loses, at most, 1 caster level early in their career and possibly one or two more after level 18.  BAB is, generally speaking, irrelevant, because these characters should have Divine Power readily available, and probably even a means of bypassing AMFs.  Swiftblade is an exception, and is Tier 2.

A Tier 3 Gish has a T1 or T2 casting base and loses 2 caster levels early and more than 3 by the time they hit level 20.  BAB is much more important than Tier 2 Gishes, not only because they're less likely to manage AMF immunity, but because they better damn well be getting something for all those caster levels they're giving up.

Another variety of Tier 3 Gish is one that uses a Tier 3 or Warlock casting base and Martial Maneuvers.  Exact BAB, caster levels, and Initiator Levels can vary wildly.

A Tier 4 Gish is like the second variety of Tier 3 gish, but uses classes like Paladin, Barbarian, etc. as their BAB booster instead of Crusader or Warblade.

Rejakor

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Re: What are benchmarks for gishes?
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2011, 09:12:18 AM »
Mecha-Hood is any full caster gish with a Hood built on top.  Named so because of Giant Size (ab)use.  The original chrono-legionnaire, the neo-trancer, and the chronorebel chrono-legionnaire all qualify as mecha-hood because they use Hood for damage alongside nearly full manifesting.

Also used to refer to warforged dragonborn battle jump multichargers, although for a different reason.

The tiers are very general and based around spellcasting.. they're not a good way to measure differences between melee types.  Essentially, you can measure gishes by how high their numbers go.  If they are unhittable by the average attack bonus of a CR 20 monster at CR 20, do enough damage to down a CR 20 monster in one round of actions, tack on various ancillary effects/spellcasting, have defenses to common attacks (evasion, uncanny dodge, mettle, autosaves, antimagic field/indigo veil/whatnot, elusive target, undead immunities), etc etc, they're at least T2.  If they break the action economy (via genesis, dominant ideal, or Time Stop + Delay Spell/Temporal Acceleration + Delay Power), or can execute all the usual wizard tricks while remaining a very tough melee combatant/defense artist, then they're at least T1.