Author Topic: Help creating a Triple-Gestalt Ubervillain :)  (Read 2521 times)

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Leviathan

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Help creating a Triple-Gestalt Ubervillain :)
« on: April 14, 2011, 06:00:10 AM »
Me again :)

So, my long running D&D campaign is just about coming to a close, and I finally need to stat up the final villain.

Brief campaign background
[spoiler]
In a nutshell, several millennia ago a powerful Demi Lich attempted a ritual to ascend himself to Godhood. He "seduced" a (very) minor goddess of.. lets just say "pleasure", into spending the night with him, and she bore him six children. Due to a ritual on the Lich's part each of those six children possessed a larger than usual amount of divine essence, and the Demi Lich planned an elaborate ritual to use that essence for himself.

Each of his children, after they grew up recruited a right-hand man (or dog in one case), and the plan was for each Lich's Child to pass their divine essence into their second, and then kill them. The Demi Lich would then use the freed essence to ascend to Godhood, then raise his Children to be his heralds (and some of them would no doubt raise their seconds in turn). However, during the ritual one or more of the seconds panicked, which led to them all rebelling at the last moment.
The ritual went awry, the entire kingdom was torn from Faerun and thrown into a bubble plane in the Abyss. The Lich was trapped in his Phylactery and the seconds were all killed. However, in spite of their change of heart they were denied entry into the upper planes until they set things right and the plane was returned to its proper place.
The only way to do this is for either the Demi Lich to ascend, or for the ritual to be modified to destroy him. And so began a cycle where both the heroes and the Lich's Children are reborn every few decades to clash until one side wins.
Due to the precise situation and ritual needed to pull this off one way or the other, thus far has only been several thousand years of stalemate as one side wipes out the other without performing the ritual (or most of the time even getting to it).

However (naturally) this time the PCs may actually succeed...
[/spoiler]

The plan for the Demi Lich

* The Demi Lich is be a lvl 20-30 triple-Gestalt (Favoured Soul/Sorcerer/Unarmed Swordsage, with Geomancer taking up ten of the Sorcerer levels), no Epic spells, unsure on 10th level or above spell slots.
* The Demi Lich cannot use his soul-draining ability since he needs the PCs souls to do the ritual in the first place
* The Demi Lich is little more than a disembodied spirit trapped in his phylactery until the ritual starts, so while he has plenty of mental prep and knowledge about the PCs, he can't actually prepare anything beforehand (though he's got a full swag of magic items)
* Depending on exactly what the PCs do during the final ritual, individuals may be immune to many of his Demi Lich abilities (including being able to bypass his magic immunity, and insight bonuses to AC etc)
* The Demi Lich will be taking on a semi-corporeal fully bodied form seemingly carved from crystalised negative energy so that he actually has a full body to fight with. This will negate his size bonus to AC but allow him to use TWF etc.
* He will have backup in the form of the souls of his children, but how useful they are will depend on what the PCs do (they will be 20th level Gestalts with no gear, and may or may not be able to affect the PCs)

What I'm mostly looking for is suggestions for what abilities will synergise well with what is effectively going to be a "Magic Knight" style character, equally at home blasting from a distance or wading into melee. Obviously things like Divine Power (and perfect TWF) & Arcane Strike will be needed, as well as Arcane Spellsurge for casting a free spell every round, but beyond that I've never really used a high-level character who mixes melee & casting, nor have I used a high-level Swordsage (especially not one with access to huge gobs of magic) so if anyone can suggest feats/maneuvers/spells that would be viable for such a character, it would be very much appreciated :)
Also, thoughts on what spells I should make sure he has Spell Immunity for would also be very handy.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2011, 06:25:01 AM by Leviathan »

TheEndIsNear

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Re: Help creating a Triple-Gestalt Ubervillain :)
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2011, 01:39:36 PM »
I like:
Cleric 10/Walker of the Waste 10/
Dread Necromancer 20/
Sorcerer 5/Shadowcraft mage 5/Shadowcrafter 10/

Then w/e you want for epic. Technicly put Crusader, Warblade and Swordsage 10 will give you initiator level 20 with all. You get Cha to HP and have to focus on Cha and Wis BUT you can divine metamagick persist for the melee monster AND have tons of undead followers and do a Lord of the Uttercold on the Sorcerer side with spells that can deal up to 160% damage and heal undead.

Take you're pic.

Widow

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Re: Help creating a Triple-Gestalt Ubervillain :)
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2011, 05:59:10 PM »
Hmm, how are you handling the LA on the Demi-Lich?  I am going to say you probably have to build for level 29 at least because you don't qualify for the template until you have 21 levels in a base caster class.  Under those conditions I think I would go:

Dreadnecro 29//
Cleric 2/Marshal1 / Battle Dancer 1/ Bard 1/Eldrich Master 4/Incantrix 1/Sublime Chord 1/Incantrix 9/Minbender 1/LA +8//
BlackGuard 21/Eldrich Master 8

Okay, this is a little tricky. 

Dreadnecro will lets you control lots of undead, grant the lich template, and spontaneously cast spells off of Cha.  Switch to a dry lich if possible.

Cleric will grant turn undead and alternative sourced spell so you can divine metamagic arcane spells.

Marshal will give you Cha to something of your choice.

Battle Dancer will give you Cha to AC if not wearing armor (Dragon Compendium)

Incantrix will give you -1 all metamagics and meta feats.  Use the later levels to advance sublime chord.

Sublime chord will give you some sorc and bard spells, but will add its effective level to your dreadnecro for spellcasting.

Blackguard is tricky and you can replace if you wish.  A fallen palladin that is epic can convert as many levels as it wants to blackguard.  Play the varient evil paladin from unearthed arcania and fall to blackguard at level 21.  Convert all levels, I am assuming this is superseeding the normal 1 PrC at a time.

Now Eldrich Master.  Every 3 levels it grants a bonus metamagic feat and a spell slot 1 level higher than you can currently cast.  Every 4 levels it allows you to add another classes spell list to your own.  Note the Dread necro knows all spells on its list and cast them spontaneously.  Pick Bard, Sorcerer, and cleric to have full access to any of those spells.  It is in dragon #280.

Leviathan

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Re: Help creating a Triple-Gestalt Ubervillain :)
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2011, 10:52:05 PM »
Ok, all pre-epic classes are already set as per the original post. Yes it may be sub-optimised but if I've got something that's not the most bizarre mix of synergistic classes possible then I can happily tack on more class levels without the final combat turning into a "Either the PCs or the Villain are dead in two rounds" style nuke-fest.
Also, as previously stated the Demi Lich does not have any prep time for this so there is no point in listing classes giving a massive undead army - he hasn't had the chance to create one!
Advice on classes *after* hitting lvl 21, or PrC that I can mix in is appreciated, but everything before that is set in stone. Also, since I belt my players over the head if they start one-level dipping classes for mechanical benefits, I play by the same rules :)

The CR on the Demi Lich is being kept a bit nebulous since if the PCs pull off certain things during the ritual then they'll be immune or able to bypass much of the effects of it, though once I dig out my copy of Sandstorm I'll take a look at Dry Lich, that could certainly throw a bit of oddity into the mix :). Likewise I have no doubt that I can squeeze Incantatrix in either before or after Geomancer, that's not a half bad idea.
Where abouts is Eldritch Master from?

Widow

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Re: Help creating a Triple-Gestalt Ubervillain :)
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2011, 04:48:21 AM »
Your original build is fine, but it is going to make it difficult to add additional PrC levels epic without dipping (which you are avoiding) or committing another 5-10 levels epic.  It is further complicated with your 20 to 30 range on CR.  The demilich has a +6 CR on top of lich, which is why Theendisnear and myself in part recommended dread necromancer which grants a free lich template.  Your best bet with your original build is to just take more Geomancer since it will grant you bonus epic feats and the other two classes are locked into base anyway.

The dread necro is not just for an undead army.  First it grants the lich template for free lowering your CR or LA.  Second it is also a Cha based caster fitting with your Cha theme.  Third it automatically knows every spell on its list, which when combined with eldrich master (Dragon 280), means it knows every spell and can cast them spontaneously.  Fourth it gets rebuke undead which allows for divine metamagic using alternative sourced spell.  Not to mention if fits in quite nicely on a demi-lich.

A simple build would be
Dreadnecro 22//
Evil Varient Paladin 10 or Favored Soul 10/Eldrich Master 12//
Sword Sage 22

No dipping, full spontaneous access to dreadnecro, wizard, cleric, and bard spell list.  Paladin will push your BAB high enough for 4 attacks without divine power or you can get more spells with favored soul.  The 4 bonus spell slots from Eldrich Master can grant 6, 7, 8, and 9th level favored soul slots if desired.  Mix in dry lich or use pathfinder undead rules for cha to HP if necessary.


Leviathan

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Re: Help creating a Triple-Gestalt Ubervillain :)
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2011, 05:38:30 AM »
Points taken Widow.

The PCs are six lvl 20 gestalts each with a free +3/+4 template added on.
The Demi Lich will be assisted by six lvl 20 gestalt villains who have no equipment and no prep-time.
The deal will be that if the PCs beat their associated overlord in a one-on-one duel, that overlord cannot directly harm affect them, and they bypass the Demi Lich's magic immunity and HD to AC.
Because this has the potential to vary wildly in terms of the actual power of the PCs, I'm preferring to err on the side of stacking on feats, HP etc above lvl 20 rather than stacking on more class abilities, since it's easier to balance up and down by eyeball, since I don't want a few bad rolls in the duels to mean the PCs are utterly doomed.

I'm a bit leery of the Dread Necro + Eldrich master idea mostly because it's not something I'd allow one of my PCs to do so I'd feel a bit bad about it.

Either way it effectively comes down to a Demi Lich with d12 HD, 9th level arcane & divine spells, full Swordsage progression, all good saves, full BaB (either from classes or divine power), and some various class abilities from Geomancer and probably Encantatrix.
With this in mind, the differences between the builds vary by specifics, but the above remains the same for all of them. With this in mind I'm largely looking for specific spell/maneuver combos that work for this kind of thing, as well as spell immunities etc that I should have to avoid being blindsided by a 'no save you're screwed' (like Shivering Touch on a Dragon).

If that makes sense, end of a looong day at work ><

CrimsonDeath

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Re: Help creating a Triple-Gestalt Ubervillain :)
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2011, 10:36:57 AM »
Because this has the potential to vary wildly in terms of the actual power of the PCs, I'm preferring to err on the side of stacking on feats, HP etc above lvl 20 rather than stacking on more class abilities, since it's easier to balance up and down by eyeball, since I don't want a few bad rolls in the duels to mean the PCs are utterly doomed.
Part of the piont of Walker in the Waste was that the Dry Lich has Unholy Toughness, which adds the creature's Charisma modifier to each hit die (like living creatures use Constitution).  IMO that should've been an Undead trait to begin with, but there you go.  Walker's other abilities shouldn't be much trouble for epic characters, especially if they can research your big bad's abilities.

Leviathan

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Re: Help creating a Triple-Gestalt Ubervillain :)
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2011, 11:40:43 AM »
Part of the piont of Walker in the Waste was that the Dry Lich has Unholy Toughness, which adds the creature's Charisma modifier to each hit die (like living creatures use Constitution).  IMO that should've been an Undead trait to begin with, but there you go.  Walker's other abilities shouldn't be much trouble for epic characters, especially if they can research your big bad's abilities.

I'm digging out Sandstorm as we speak :)

I can see why Unholy Toughness isn't a blanked ability for all Undead, but it really should be at the very least a Feat that intelligent undead can take, especially those with class levels, since you know, Mr Lvl 20 Lich has so ridiculously few HP that if his magical defenses don't stop it, even a semi well built core-only melee character can happily take him out in one round.

CrimsonDeath

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Re: Help creating a Triple-Gestalt Ubervillain :)
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2011, 11:55:12 AM »
Well, Mr. Level 20 Lich has the same number of HP as Mr. Level 20 Wizard with 18 Constitution, and all the same tricks to take care of melee characters.  It might be more helpful for melee undead, although those tend to have excessive HD because of their racial half BAB...

Leviathan

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Re: Help creating a Triple-Gestalt Ubervillain :)
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2011, 12:01:57 PM »
Well, Mr. Level 20 Lich has the same number of HP as Mr. Level 20 Wizard with 18 Constitution, and all the same tricks to take care of melee characters.  It might be more helpful for melee undead, although those tend to have excessive HD because of their racial half BAB...

Maybe it's just my games, but no character in any game I've GMed has hit level 20 with less than 22 Con, 24 being the norm from memory.

Widow

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Re: Help creating a Triple-Gestalt Ubervillain :)
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2011, 11:44:26 PM »
Points taken Widow.

No problem, I was not trying to get you to change at that point.  Just clarifing why dread necro is nifty.  I would still just stick with additional geomancer levels if you are in the 24-25 level range for the bonus epic feat and to not have to specialize.  The Cha to HP thing is annoying since only about 25% of undead get it.  Pathfinder changed it to automatically include all undead.  There is a feat in dragon 319 that lets you add Int to HP.

I have played a dread necro/Eldrich Master in a standard gestalt game and it is impressive.  Lots more spells know than a standard arcane/divine build, but half the spell slots. The best part though is the level 10 Eldrich Master knows when ever someone says his name anywhere on the plane.  Fits in with all those different stories where people are afraid to say the villians name because it may draw attention to them. Unfortunately I never got that into demi lich despite being epic.

TheEndIsNear

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Re: Help creating a Triple-Gestalt Ubervillain :)
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2011, 12:42:36 AM »
Do a persits monster and as soon as he comes out he prysmatic spheres around him and tiemstop and then buff up then kill face.