Author Topic: Usually the tank Needs to build a skillmonkey please assist  (Read 4521 times)

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ninjafatty

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Usually the tank Needs to build a skillmonkey please assist
« on: April 13, 2011, 12:17:24 AM »
 :banghead sooooooo my DM of many years has brought some new players in... one of them being... his new gf. He has a tendancy to run the game catering to her wants and this new one you guessed it, took my tank roll. My DM is a bit... well paticular and wants the base rolls covered. His previous gf was the skill monkey and he expects me to take over. I don't mind so much other than I haven't much more knowledge into other than, there are skills, my Int makes them more abundant and Rogues seem to do it well? Not too concerned with dealing any damage party will have plenty. So I implore any readers to offer thoughts, insults, jests, builds, tips, or even basic ideas toward my goal for my party's new game coming up.

Thanks!!
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RelentlessImp

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Re: Usually the tank Needs to build a skillmonkey please assist
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2011, 12:22:39 AM »
Insult.

In any case, if you're doing a skillmonkey, I'd highly suggest the Factotum from Dungeonscape with lots of the feat Font of Inspiration, with as high an Int as you can manage. Strongheart Halfling will do best, you can probably get away with being a Necropolitan, and pick up Lifesight from Libris Mortis.

There, now Jaron doesn't have to enter the thread and bore you with tales of Tier 3 gameplay. ^_^
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CrimsonDeath

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Re: Usually the tank Needs to build a skillmonkey please assist
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2011, 12:32:51 AM »
It might help to know what books are available/banned, what level you're starting with, how you plan to generate ability scores, what sort of campaign you expect it to be (urban? dungeon crawl? wilderness?), and precisely what skills need monkeying.  I'm assuming Search, Disable Device, and Open Lock, with the Trapfinding class feature?

In your situation (given your preference for tanks), I'd suggest the Trapkiller Barbarian (also from Dungeonscape).  Starting at level 3, you can use Survival at -5 (rather than Search) to find traps and use attack rolls instead of Disable Device (assuming there's a mechanism to smash).  For opening doors, there's always the portable ram, or as I like to call it, the Orcish lockpick.

Another option people will likely shill would be a Kobold Cloistered Cleric with the Kobold Domain.  Almost as many skill points as a Rogue, Trapfinding, Search, Disable Device, and full Cleric casting.  No Open Lock, but you can buy your DM's girlfriend some Orcish lockpicks.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 04:59:56 AM by CrimsonDeath »

Solo

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Re: Usually the tank Needs to build a skillmonkey please assist
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2011, 12:34:36 AM »
I think it's time for you to make a build that is both a tank and a skillmonkey.

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Shiki

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Re: Usually the tank Needs to build a skillmonkey please assist
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2011, 01:20:51 AM »
I think it's time for you to make a build that is both a tank and a skillmonkey.


Or sleep with your DM to steal her standing. Although, if you are a guy, that might not do. So, +1 to Solo.
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Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Usually the tank Needs to build a skillmonkey please assist
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2011, 03:17:36 AM »
I think it's time for you to make a build that is both a tank and a skillmonkey.


Or sleep with your DM to steal her standing. Although, if you are a guy, that might not do. So, +1 to Solo.

Or, it might do exceptionally well :p
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Mixster

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Re: Usually the tank Needs to build a skillmonkey please assist
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2011, 10:10:39 AM »
I've heard of a story of a Factotum.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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Kajhera

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Re: Usually the tank Needs to build a skillmonkey please assist
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2011, 10:19:08 AM »
Other options include Bard, possibly with Bardic Knack; their abilities and spells can be decently unique and they have good skill points.
Or Beguiler, who has trapfinding, moderately enjoyable spells, good skill points, no real focus on damage whatsoever, and is INT dependent. Pleasant skillcaster.
Beguiler with a level or two in Prestige Bard wouldn't be half bad either.
I personally find psion(shaper) works puzzlingly well as a skill monkey replacement but you may find the lack of base skill points damaging to being a skill monkey. Other disciplines like telepath or egoist or seer can be fun as well; just beware dipping into Thrallherd, as that way lies a path of dark temptation indeed.
Factotum indeed fits the skill monkey role to a T.

ninjafatty

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Re: Usually the tank Needs to build a skillmonkey please assist
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2011, 01:41:07 PM »
Thank you for all the quick replies and insights. I will have to look into both this factotum and building a skillmonkey tank :D As suggested a little background of the potential game.. the landscape can transverse all possible and impossible terrains.. though I imagine mostly urban and dungeon-esc settings we always start level 1 I've gotten to epic levels so full build/plan character projection possible, one house rule that might give some insight to how we play is no matter what you're rolling for if you roll a natural 20 something good happens and natural 1 something bad happens. No books are banned but the magazines like dragon or the others are usually off limits. I also tend to never get magic items incase you get curious! Well off to study D&D books instead of doing my job! Thanks again all!

CrimsonDeath

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Re: Usually the tank Needs to build a skillmonkey please assist
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2011, 04:26:21 PM »
No books are banned
Excellent.

I also tend to never get magic items
Is that by choice or because the DM doesn't drop any?  (In the latter case, you might consider Vow of Poverty from Book of Exalted Deeds.)

Anyway, I have a few build stubs.

Rogue 3/Barbarian 4/Nightsong Enforcer 10 (skill tank)

That one loses only one base attack in 17 levels and only has one hard feat requirement, and it's a fairly good one: Improved Initiative.  I'd also strongly suggest Power Attack.  Out of combat you can do trap monkeying and maybe a few other skills, but in combat you fight like a Barbarian.  Other good feats are Leap Attack, Improved Bull Rush/Shock Trooper, and Extra Rage.  If you go with a charging build, the Neraph race will help you trigger Sneak Attack more often and the Lion Totem alternate class feature lets you pounce.  The Rogue levels will also help you hit the prerequisites for the Nimble Charge and Twisted Charge prerequisites.  You can top this one off with more Rogue and Barbarian levels or another prestige class.

Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10 (rogue caster)

The only feat this one really requires is Master Spellthief, although even with the high Intelligence you'll want, you may like Able Learner (which requires you play Human or a Human subrace).  You're half a spell level behind the Wizard (even with a Sorcerer), you can cast in light armor, and you're only three Sneak Attack dice behind a single class Rogue.  If you don't want items like Greater Truedeath/Demolition Crystals, you might consider spells like Gravestrike or Vinestrike for your Advanced Learning.  (I'd hold off on Vinestrike until I found out how many plants we were planning to fight, though.  Or maybe just get spells that are good against plants and give up on physically attacking them anyway.)  Hunter's Eye is another decent pick; it puts you ahead of a pure Rogue on Sneak Attack dice.  You might consider a specialist Diviner so you qualify more easily for Metamagic School Focus, then use Persistent Spell with Gravestrike and Hunter's Eye.  If you plan on melee, Wraithstrike is another good choice, especially with Extend or Persist.  Alternatively, you could just play him like a Wizard and just treat your Sneak Attack like an afterthought.  You have a lot of options to top off, like Spellwarp Sniper for attack spells, Daggerspell Mage for TWF, or Arcane Trickster if you don't want to lock yourself into a particular role.

Beguiler 1/Wizard 4/Ultimate Magus 10 (dedicated caster)

For dedicated skill monkeys, this build eats at least three feats: Able Learner, Practiced Spellcaster, and a metamagic feat.  (Practiced Spellcaster is there to get 9/10 Wizard casting out of Ultimate Magus.)  Beguiler is there for two things.  1: Add a few Wizard spells you know you'll want to cast repeatedly to the Beguiler list.  2: Burn Beguiler spell slots to add free Metamagic to your Wizard spells on the fly.  You can top off with any Wizard prestige class.  If you want some Master Specialist levels, you could enter at level 5 by pushing Practiced Spellcaster back to level 6 (which works out to the same Wizard/Beguiler caster levels by level 12).  You'll need some tricks to get a Persistent Spell out of your Beguiler spell slots (without taking more of a hit than necessary to Wizard casting), but Quicken, Maximize, Fell Animate, Fell Drain, Empower, Twin, and Split Ray are no problem.  If you specialize, consider dumping Enchantment and Illusion, since you'll retain access to a lot of them through the Beguiler side.  You'll probably want the classic specializations of Conjurer or Transmuter for their wide selection of buffs, save-or-lose, and battlefield control.

I'm sure someone will come behind me and tell you I'm an idiot and this is no way to build a character, but at least here's a springboard for discussion...

Solo

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Re: Usually the tank Needs to build a skillmonkey please assist
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2011, 04:45:01 PM »
Dwarf Ranger1/Barbarian2/Ranger2/Deepwarden2/Fist of the Forest3
Combat Style: TWF
Use the Trap Expert ACF to trade Track for Trapfinding, Disable Device, and Open Lock.
City Dweller ACF trades Ride for Tumble.
Spirit Lion Totem ACF trades fast movement for pounce.
Wolf Totem alternate class trades uncanny dodge for Improved Trip

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CrimsonDeath

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Re: Usually the tank Needs to build a skillmonkey please assist
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2011, 05:00:06 PM »
Dwarf Ranger1/Barbarian2/Ranger2/Deepwarden2/Fist of the Forest3
Combat Style: TWF
Use the Trap Expert ACF to trade Track for Trapfinding, Disable Device, and Open Lock.
City Dweller ACF trades Ride for Tumble.
Spirit Lion Totem ACF trades fast movement for pounce.
Wolf Totem alternate class trades uncanny dodge for Improved Trip
I like this one.  You also get Constitution to AC twice.  And Stonecunning for being a Dwarf.  Regarding FotF, I'm pretty sure the errata specifies that Feral Trance is a free action.

awaken DM golem

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Re: Usually the tank Needs to build a skillmonkey please assist
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2011, 09:01:51 PM »

... his new gf. He has a tendancy to run the game catering to her wants ...

... previous gf was the skill monkey ...

... any readers to offer thoughts, insults, jests, builds ...


hmm ... personally I'd prefer a Skill Monkey gf to a Diplomancer gf ...  :drums


You could go straight to the source of the "problem" and be an
Artificer 1 / Psion Shaper 1 ... make lots of "toys"  :eh ... and
infinite doesn't go to your waist Minor Creation Chocolate via a psi recharge set-up.

jeffrie

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Re: Usually the tank Needs to build a skillmonkey please assist
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2011, 12:42:46 AM »
Depending on how completely you want to go skill monkey you should really look into Factotum. By the way, there is a handbook. In addition to having ALL skills and letting you add your Int bonus to skill checks
Cunning Surge (Ex): Starting at 8th level, you learn to push
yourself when needed.
By spending 3 inspiration points, you can take an extra
standard action during your turn
.
Cunning Breach (Su): Starting at 11th level, your broad
knowledge allows you to study an opponent and gain a
brief flash of insight to breach her defenses.
By spending 2 inspiration points as a free action, for 1 round.

Rogue2/Factotum11/Exemplar1/8skillpoints6
With max Int you get a total of 289 skill points, plus the 80 points for your Int bonus on skills totals 370. There are only about 35 skills on the character sheet.
Add the ability (exemplar) to take ten on Int+1 skills even when hurrying, and the Facto bonus of Int to skills, and you will have auto win on just about everything.

Just don't forget Knowledge Devotion! and UMD!

Of course that isn't a 20th level wizard, but you could trim that some. Take Daggerspell Mage for 6 skill points, sneak attack, and "+1 existing arcane class" for a simple build caster type skill monkey.

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CrimsonDeath

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Re: Usually the tank Needs to build a skillmonkey please assist
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2011, 01:17:42 AM »
Or Factotum 20 is also a solid build, especially if you take Font of Inspiration a few times.  That one really helps if you know the other classes really well, though.

Saxony

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Re: Usually the tank Needs to build a skillmonkey please assist
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2011, 02:04:52 AM »
Or Factotum 20 is also a solid build, especially if you take Font of Inspiration a few times.  That one really helps if you know the other classes really well, though.

Said less vaguely:

The strength comes from the 19th level ability which can mimic other classes. Very powerful.

It won't come into play unless the original poster (ninjafatty) actually gets to level 19. If ninjafatty's campaigns never get to level 20 or so, this is a problem.
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Saeomon

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Re: Usually the tank Needs to build a skillmonkey please assist
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2011, 02:11:49 AM »
I'm going to be completely contrarian here and say you should roll up a Thrallherd.

Then have your first Thrall be a tank.

Then Dominate the DM's gf's character and force her to be the skillmonkey.

Heh...I'm not being serious, of course. I just had a very bad experience with a DM not too long ago and am still feeling general disdain for those who like to throw their weight around for dumb reasons. And I think prioritizing the selfish desires of one's significant other at the expense of the other members in a gaming group is a very dumb reason to throw one's weight around. It just smacks of insecurity.

But seriously, if you're playing in a highly optimized campaign with all source material allowed then do what the majority in this thread is saying and go Factotum. The general consensus in the char op community is that it's the best skillmonkey class.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2011, 02:13:32 AM by Saeomon »

JaronK

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Re: Usually the tank Needs to build a skillmonkey please assist
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2011, 03:32:39 AM »
Another thought to consider is being a Ranger.  They've got a variant that gives trapfinding and such, which gets you in the right direction, while still being able to tank.  Swordsage is also worth considering.

Factotum/Swordsage is of course very solid.

JaronK

Mixster

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Re: Usually the tank Needs to build a skillmonkey please assist
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2011, 09:34:03 AM »
Consider a Factotum Tripper:
This is a strong Tank skillmonkey build:
Pouncing Barbarian 1/Factotum 19
With LA buy-off:
Half-Minotaur Half-Giant
Feats: Touchstone (from sandstorm that thing that allows you to count as larger), Jotunbrud, improved trip.
You'd have Int+Str+20 Bonus to trip, which should be enough to trip just about anything. If you put ranks in Iaijutsu Focus (from oriental adventures, and why wouldn't you?) You can hit them for extra damage while they are down.

There's also the master spellthief + Sublime Chord + UM build.
It goes something like this:
Spellthief 1/Bard 1/Wizard 3/Unseen Seer 4/Ultimate Magus 1/Sublime Chord 1/Ultimate Magus +9
A Caster level around 60, and spells from the sublime chord to work with the level 7 spells from the wizard. Either can be sacrificed to power the others metamagic, meaning persist is in there for you. And quicken is a piece of cake. Trapfinding from the spellthief, a good int, and skill points in search will let you find most traps. It's a primary caster.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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Saxony

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Re: Usually the tank Needs to build a skillmonkey please assist
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2011, 01:52:28 PM »
Quote
Pouncing Barbarian 1/Factotum 19
Pouncing Barbarian is on Complete Champion page 46. It's the Barbarian Alternative Class Feature called the Lion Spiritual Totem (Usually called Lion Totem Barbarian or Lion Spiritual Totem Barbarian on this board). It replaces fast movement for pounce(!). It is one of the best Alternative Class Features evar.
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