Author Topic: Interesting Abuses for Legacy Champion  (Read 6309 times)

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Lycanthromancer

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Interesting Abuses for Legacy Champion
« on: April 12, 2011, 10:17:07 PM »
The legacy champion is an all-but-unique PrC because it advances another class's class features like casting PrCs advance caster levels. It basically gives you everything outside of BAB, saves, and skills/skill points that another class would grant you. It does this for 8/10 of its levels.

There are a few fun ways to use this ability that I know of, though I'd love to hear more. The ones I can think of off the top of my head are:

1.) The first is obvious: gain two sets of class abilities at the same time, especially if the legacy champion's chassis is better than the class you're emulating (BAB, saves, and skills).

2.) Extending PrCs past their original end-points. If a class has an easily-extrapolated set of abilities, such as war weaver or mystic theurge, you can continue gaining effective levels even past the class's final level. This turns 5 level PrCs into 13 level PrCs, and 10 level PrCs into 18 level PrCs. Very handy.

I'd also love to see a few of the classes or PrCs that are especially nice to use this with. For instance:

War weaver: Look at all the spells you can load up to unleash as a move action! Also, really high level spells, too.

War hulk: Medium BAB to replace the 0 BAB the war hulk gets, AND gain +2 Str per level. Very good.

Mystic theurge: It's always annoyed me that theurges only go 10 levels. Why not boost that through 18?

Any other fun uses or class combos this would go well with?
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TheEndIsNear

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Re: Interesting Abuses for Legacy Champion
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2011, 10:20:10 PM »
Doesn't this get crazy with Master of nine and hellfire warlock?

Saeomon

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Re: Interesting Abuses for Legacy Champion
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2011, 10:35:41 PM »
Progressing a PrC past its max level makes Metamind a little more viable, pre-Epic. Not much, but any little bit does help that craptastic PrC.

Any of the dual-progression PrCs (Mystic Theurge, Cerebremancer, etc.) probably benefit the most.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Interesting Abuses for Legacy Champion
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2011, 11:39:26 PM »
Progressing a PrC past its max level makes Metamind a little more viable, pre-Epic. Not much, but any little bit does help that craptastic PrC.
But you're losing even more MLs. DOES NOT COMPUTE.

Any of the dual-progression PrCs (Mystic Theurge, Cerebremancer, etc.) probably benefit the most.
Certainly. Though war hulks do really well as well.

How about paragon classes?
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
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CrimsonDeath

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Re: Interesting Abuses for Legacy Champion
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2011, 11:45:22 PM »
Maybe Archmage, if you have the spell slots to burn.

altpersona

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Re: Interesting Abuses for Legacy Champion
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2011, 01:18:47 AM »
hows about paragons?
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Saeomon

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Re: Interesting Abuses for Legacy Champion
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2011, 01:21:34 AM »
Progressing a PrC past its max level makes Metamind a little more viable, pre-Epic. Not much, but any little bit does help that craptastic PrC.
But you're losing even more MLs. DOES NOT COMPUTE.

Yeah. Nevermind that one. Don't know what I was thinking...other than wishfully.

How about paragon classes?

The only racial Paragon class with a feature that has a noted progression is Gnome Paragon, which would get a bigger boost to Illusion Aptitude. As for how optimized it'd be...hard to say without statting out a Bard/Gnome Paragon/Sublime Chord/Shadowcraft Mage/Legacy Champion.

By my reading, Legacy Champion could wreak havoc with any of the Martial Adept classes and PrCs. You get +8 Initiator levels, plus 1/2 of the levels of Legacy Champion, for a total of +13 Initiator Levels for ten class levels. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You could maybe pull of some shenanigans by combining Legacy Champion with Uncanny Trickster and using the +1 level of class features from one PrC to gain the class features of the other PrC AND the class features of another class. Worthwhile? I dunno.

Two Psionic PrCs that would really benefit from Legacy Champion are the Meditant and the Crystal Master from Mind's Eye. Meditant would get another 8 activations per day, and could spend those to unlock more of the Intense Psychic Meditation options. Unless the text of Crystal Master is read to say that the class has a hard cap of 5 embedded gems, then you're looking at an additional 4 gems to add to your character's body. Plus those gems that grant powers which increase when more gems are embedded would further increase in power.

The Constructor wouldn't benefit as much, but it would still get two more levels of Boost Construct, so two more menu choices for those ACs.

The benefit to Dweomerkeeper is obvious: more uses of Supernatural Spell per day. Additional selections for Mantle of Spells is gravy.

If the Incantatrix's Instant Metamagic feature starts progressing at level 7 with an additional use every two levels thereafter, slapping on Legacy Champion could net ya 4 more Instant Metamagic applications per day.

I'm just brainstorming, here. I really don't know anything about the Legacy Champion besides its feature of progressing other class features. Don't know if any of the above would be good choices in practice, much less optimal ones.

CrimsonDeath

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Re: Interesting Abuses for Legacy Champion
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2011, 01:35:04 AM »
Sovereign Speaker?  Eight more domains might be fun.

Littha

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Re: Interesting Abuses for Legacy Champion
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2011, 01:36:00 AM »
Spellwarp sniper + Legacy champion gets you the ability to warp higher level spells... which is nice because if they have a reflex save when you warp them they become save:none

Rebel7284

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Re: Interesting Abuses for Legacy Champion
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2011, 02:05:14 AM »
Abjurant Champion.
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Akalsaris

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Re: Interesting Abuses for Legacy Champion
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2011, 02:25:58 AM »
Fiend of Possession?  Another +10 weapon/armor abilities never did anyone any harm, especially since you can simply possess your own legacy weapon with additional abilities you chose.

For base classes (ie, not abuse), Legacy Champion goes surprisingly well with the-class-that-shall-not-be-mentioned-by-its-truename. You gain better HP, BAB, skills, and saves, as well as customizable abilities for your legacy item, just in return for 2 levels of true-naming progression. It's also one of the only PrCs that advances truenaming anyhow.

Widow

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Re: Interesting Abuses for Legacy Champion
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2011, 02:33:18 AM »
The template classes from the wizards web enhancements are also quite strong,  particularly the ghost class.  The template ends up costing you extra levels, but you elminate all but 1 LA.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a

I am also a big fan of the Fiend of Possession if over leveling is allowed.  This can also be used in combination with bloodlines, using the legacy champion to advance the bloodlines if you have more than one level based ability to push.

I have also mentioned illithaid savant on several builds.  Not a class for them to take, but a PrC to hunt down and eat.  If you can find one level 10 legacy champion to eat (or an epic version if you are really luck), it will net you 8 more effective class levels for one of your class ability eats.  Remeber to True Res him for additional munchies.

Psionic Illithaid 8 HD+7LA, 1 Thrallherd, 3 Illithaid Savant
2 eats gives you full progression in thrallherd and Illithaid savant, and you end up iwth one class ability to eat open.

Over leveling the Eldrich Master from Dragon 280 to level 12 pre-epic is also perfect, although uncanny trickster is better suited for this.  Every 3 levels the class grants a spell slot one level higher than you can current cast and a bonus metamagic feat.  Every 4 levels it lets you add another classes spell list to your own.  These line up perfectly at level 12.  Although this class works best in gestalt since it does not progress spell casting.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Interesting Abuses for Legacy Champion
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2011, 02:34:39 AM »
By my reading, Legacy Champion could wreak havoc with any of the Martial Adept classes and PrCs. You get +8 Initiator levels, plus 1/2 of the levels of Legacy Champion, for a total of +13 Initiator Levels for ten class levels. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
[spoiler]Intent wise? Definitely no.

RAW wise? Like everything else you read on the forums it's based on not reading the rules.
The quoted idea is you martial adapt levels + 1/2 all other levels implies that by that line of thought (all other classes) all PrCs given double progression. Wonderful idea, but should have thrown up a red flag really when someone mentioned the idea of one-and-a-half progression as a JPM. The following notation of  "Prestige Classes work a little differently." when quoted exclusively means PrCs do no use that all-other-classes concept. IE PrCs do not advance IL. At. All. Both of those are wrong when you observe the entire entry but as long as someone persists and half-assed reading of the rules, it would make an excellent counter argument.

The full line is worded a bit like: "Prestige Classes work a little differently. In most cases, you add the full PrC level to marital adapt levels for your IL. See the PRC descriptions for details." creating an exception for PrCs from the 1/2-all-other general rule provided the PrC it's self gives progression.

Anyway
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Widow

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Re: Interesting Abuses for Legacy Champion
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2011, 02:40:59 AM »
Mystic theurge: It's always annoyed me that theurges only go 10 levels. Why not boost that through 18?

Didn't the official epic progression for the mystic theurge stop dual progressing in epic levels.  It just gave a lame +1 to one class.  Now any other Dual progression class without official epic progressions should work just fine.

Although not powerful, you could progress the ARDENT DILETTANTE from the Planar handbook without getting the further level based PrC requirements.

snakeman830

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Re: Interesting Abuses for Legacy Champion
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2011, 02:44:37 AM »
I think Legacy Champion 10 gives +9 IL to the advanced martial adept class.  You have the flat +8 from the class feature progression and you have two levels that don't advance it (or rather advance at 1/2).  That's the only interpretation I can really see for it.
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CrimsonDeath

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Re: Interesting Abuses for Legacy Champion
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2011, 03:16:20 AM »
Wilder, maybe?  You keep getting better Wild Surge (in case you really need it) but cap the PP you lose to enervation.  Also puts a bridge to Anarchic Initiate.

Cagemarrow

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Re: Interesting Abuses for Legacy Champion
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2011, 09:52:30 AM »
Anima Mage from Tome of Magic would go well with this. You could end up with full casting and binding with the proper build. :) I've been able to dominate multiple games with just full binding, add wizard casting to that and it would be insane. :)