Author Topic: Punch, kick, it's all in the mind [3.5]  (Read 8001 times)

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Prime32

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Punch, kick, it's all in the mind [3.5]
« on: April 10, 2011, 08:14:00 PM »
What reasons could a sword-fighter have to occasionally mix in a punch or kick?
EDIT: How did a whole class get into this post when I wasn't looking? ???



An unarmed strike is a light melee weapon that deals 1d3 points of nonlethal bludgeoning damage. Unarmed strikes are considered simple weapons for the purposes of proficiency, and you gain a +2 bonus on attack rolls made with them. In addition, you may apply the better of your Str or Dex modifiers to attack rolls. However, using an unarmed strike against an armed opponent provokes an attack of opportunity unless you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat (creatures with primary natural attacks count as armed).

You may attack with an unarmed strike as if it were a manufactured or natural weapon, whichever is more convenient. This allows you to make iterative attacks with an unarmed strike if your BAB is high enough, and/or make an additional attack with an unarmed strike at a -5 penalty as part of a full attack in addition to your normal attacks.

Attempting a trip, bull rush, or grapple does not provoke an attack of opportunity. However, when performing one of these attacks you may choose to deliver it via an unarmed strike, in which case you are treated as one size category larger than normal for opposed rolls made as part of that attack. Likewise, an unarmed strike is considered a two-handed weapon when making disarm attempts, or in any other case where the size of your weapon would give you an advantage.

Improved Unarmed Strike [General, Fighter]
Prerequisite: Proficiency with unarmed strikes
Benefit: You may treat your unarmed strike as a natural or manufactured weapon at any point, whichever is more convenient, allowing it to benefit from spells which enhance natural or manufactured weapons. You no longer provoke an attack of opportunity for making an unarmed strike, and you can make attacks of opportunity against opponents who attack you with unarmed strikes as if you were armed. In addition, your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your option.
Special: This feat counts as Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) for the purposes of prerequisites.

Superior Unarmed Strike [General, Fighter]
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike
Benefit: You may treat your unarmed strike as a double weapon whenever convenient, allowing you to dual-wield two strikes or wield one with both hands. If you have applied enchantments to your unarmed strike by some means, they apply to both ends.
Special: This feat counts as Weapon Specialisation (unarmed strike) for the purposes of prerequisites. A monk may select this feat as one of his monk bonus feats.


Decisive Strike [General, Fighter]
Prerequisite: Power Attack
Benefit: When attacking with your unarmed strike as a manufactured weapon, you may treat it as a one-handed weapon, and may wield it in two hands if you wish (gaining 1.5x your Str bonus to damage). When attacking with your unarmed strike as a natural attack, it always deals damage as a primary natural attack (adding 1x your Str bonus to damage).
Normal: Attacks made with natural weapons after your normal attacks are secondary, adding 0.5x your Str bonus to damage.
Special: A monk may select this feat as one of his monk bonus feats.

Flurry of Blows [General, Fighter]
Prerequisite: Two-Weapon Fighting or Multiattack
Benefit: When attacking with your unarmed strike as a manufactured weapon, you may treat it as a pair of light weapons. In addition, you gain a second unarmed strike which can only be used as a secondary natural attack (i.e. you cannot attack with it as a manufactured weapon). If you have applied enchantments to your unarmed strike by some means, they apply to both instances of your unarmed strike.
Special: A monk may select this feat as one of his monk bonus feats.


Semi-related random monkness
[spoiler]Monk
1    Improved Unarmed Strike, Ki strike, AC bonus, Fast movement
2    Evasion, Multiattack
3    Dancing strike, Still mind
4    Unarmed counter
5    Unarmed versatility
6    Improved Multiattack
7    Flight
8    Mountain strike
9    Improved unarmed counter
10   Flyby Attack
11   Rapidstrike
12   Improved evasion
13   Empty body (incorporeal)
14   Greater unarmed counter
15   Quivering palm
16   Improved Rapidstrike
17   Improved dancing strike
18   Empty body (ethereal)
19   Supreme unarmed counter
20   Perfect self


Bonus feats: Monks receive Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat at 1st level. They receive Multiattack at 2nd level, Improved Multiattack at 6th level, Rapidstrike at 11th level and Improved Rapidstrike at 16th level.

Ki Pool: A monk has a pool of ki equal to half his monk level + his Wis modifier. This stacks with any ki pool he may receive from other classes (such as ninja).

AC Bonus: As long as he does not wear armour or carry a shield, a monk gains a bonus to AC equal to the maximum size of his ki pool.

Ki Strike: A monk deals additional damage with natural weapons equal to the maximum size of his ki pool. As long as he has at least 1 point of ki remaining his attacks are treated as magic and ghost touch weapons.

Fast Movement (Ex): A monk's land speed increases by +5ft per class level as long as he does not wear armour or carry a shield.

Dancing Strike (Ex): At 3rd level, whenever a monk makes one or more attacks he may make additional attacks with his unarmed strike, as with a full attack. For instance, as a standard action the monk could attack with a quarterstaff then make an additional attack with an unarmed strike at a -2 penalty. At 17th level a monk may make a full attack whenever he could make one or more attacks.

Unarmed Counter (Ex): At 4th level, a monk is treated as one size category larger than normal when defending against special attacks for which unarmed strikes grant a bonus. At every 5th level thereafter the monk is treated as another size category larger when making such special attacks or defending against them.

Unarmed Versatility (Ex): At 5th level, a monk gains Superior Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. If he already possesses that feat he may select another feat from the list available to fighters, as long as he meets the prerequisites. In addition, on each unarmed strike he may choose to deal slashing, bludgeoning or piercing damage.

Flight (Su): At 7th level a monk can fly at a speed equal to his land speed with perfect maneuverability.

Mountain Strike (Ex): At 8th level a monk's attacks ignore damage reduction and hardness.

Empty Body (Su): As an immediate action, a monk of 13th level or higher can expend 1 point of ki to phase out of reality for 1 round; during this time he may choose to be treated as corporeal or incorporeal, whichever is more convenient at any given moment. Unlike most incorporeal creatures, he adds his Wis modifier as a deflection bonus to AC rather than his Cha modifier. At 18th level the monk may also choose to treat himself as ethereal during this time, and resolves all his attacks as touch attacks.

Quivering Palm (Ex): At 15th level, any creature struck by one or more of a monk's attacks must make a Fort save at the end of the round. Failure indicates that the creature is permanently paralysed or dies instantly, at the monk's choice.

Perfect Self: At 20th level a monk may treat himself as an Outsider instead of his normal type whenever it is more convenient. In addition he gains DR/epic equal to the maximum size of his ki pool.[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: May 06, 2011, 08:15:36 AM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Bozwevial

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Re: Punch, kick, it's all in the mind [3.5]
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2011, 12:03:41 AM »
It also helps out monks a bit. I am quite okay with this.

SneeR

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Re: Punch, kick, it's all in the mind [3.5]
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2011, 03:50:28 AM »
That is mechanically a great boost, but it doesn't make any sense. Tools were invented for a reason. Distance from the fulcrum and all that jive. Wrapping a spiked chain around someone's leg and pulling=/=spin kicking their heels. With that bonus, it would be.

Now, if you said that an unarmed strike counted as a secondary natural attack and could be used at the end of any full attack with only a -5 to hit, then I'd be interested. Knuckledusters were placed on hilts for that very reason!
The answer to everything:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
SneeR
[spoiler]
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
When another driver brandishes a holy symbol and begins glowing with divine light, seek cover or get spattered with zombie brains. I do not see what is so complicated about this.
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Punch, kick, it's all in the mind [3.5]
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2011, 04:38:33 AM »
What reasons could a sword-fighter have to occasionally mix in a punch or kick?



You are always proficient with unarmed strikes, and gain a +2 bonus on attack rolls made with them. In addition, you may apply the better of your Str or Dex modifiers to attack rolls. However, using an unarmed strike provokes an attack of opportunity unless you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.

When performing the trip, bull rush or grapple special attacks you may choose to deliver it via an unarmed strike, in which case you are treated as one size category larger than normal for opposed rolls made as part of that attack. Likewise, an unarmed strike is considered a two-handed weapon when making disarm attempts, or in any other case where the size of your weapon would give you an advantage. Performing one of these maneuvers does not otherwise provoke an AoO.
Simple trick.
Waive the AoO for all classes with universal martial weapon proficiency. Improved Unarmed Strike is basically that. The maneuver stuff is a good idea though.

Allow switching between weapon/unarmed strike within iterative attacks freely, unless you're actually using the unarmed strikes for extra attacks, you don't need TWF for it.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

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Prime32

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Re: Punch, kick, it's all in the mind [3.5]
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2011, 08:46:11 AM »
That is mechanically a great boost, but it doesn't make any sense. Tools were invented for a reason. Distance from the fulcrum and all that jive. Wrapping a spiked chain around someone's leg and pulling=/=spin kicking their heels. With that bonus, it would be.
Modified it from auto-proficiency to simple weapon.

And tools still grant benefits like reach, lethal damage, higher damage and not provoking an AoO.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: Punch, kick, it's all in the mind [3.5]
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2011, 04:08:47 PM »
Unarmed strikes are considered simple weapons for the purposes of proficiency, and you gain a +2 bonus on attack rolls made with them. In addition, you may apply the better of your Str or Dex modifiers to attack rolls. However, using an unarmed strike provokes an attack of opportunity unless you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.

Make Unarmed Strike a simple weapon dealing 1d3 damage, with +2 to hit, and free weapon finesse. Using an unarmed strike against a foe that either has a primary natural attack, or that is wielding a weapon provokes an attack of opportunity. Using an unarmed strike against a creature with only a secondary natural attack, or that isn't wielding a weapon, does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Quote
When performing the trip, bull rush or grapple special attacks you may choose to deliver it via an unarmed strike, in which case you are treated as one size category larger than normal for opposed rolls made as part of that attack. Likewise, an unarmed strike is considered a two-handed weapon when making disarm attempts, or in any other case where the size of your weapon would give you an advantage. Performing one of these maneuvers does not otherwise provoke an AoO.

Make Improved Unarmed Strike a martial weapon dealing 1d6 damage, with +2 to hit (and free weapon finesse), and does not provoke attacks of opportunity when used against any creatures. Improved Unarmed Strike would also benefit from the above special maneuvers rules, but the simple weapon Unarmed Strike would not. Unlike other martial weapons, Improved Unarmed Strike cannot be used without proficiency.

EDIT: Unarmed Strike and Improved Unarmed Strike are Light, Off-Hand weapons, however both may benefit from Power Attack as though they were One-Handed weapons. Improved Unarmed Strike may be wielded in two hands. If it is, it may benefit from Power Attack as though it was a Two-Handed weapon.

It would be interesting to have Unarmed Strike and Improved Unarmed Strike follow some of the rules for natural attacks. For example, the ability to treat an Unarmed Strike as a secondary natural weapon would be nice, allowing a full attack with a Greatsword with no penalty, followed up by a knee strike at -5 to hit.

EDIT: Superior Unarmed Strike is an exotic weapon dealing 1d8 damage +1 weapon size per five character levels (6d6 at 20th level), with +2 to hit and free weapon finesse. When you successfully hit a creature with Superior Unarmed Strike and deal damage you may make an attack of opportunity with an Unarmed Strike (if you are proficient). When you successfully confirm a critical hit with Superior Unarmed Strike and deal damage you may make an attack of opportunity with an Improved Unarmed Strike (if you are proficient).

When performing the trip, bull rush or grapple special attacks you may choose to deliver it via a Superior Unarmed Strike, in which case you are treated as one size category larger than normal for opposed rolls made as part of that attack, and a further size category larger than normal for every additional weapon size your Superior Unarmed Strike has acquired from your character levels.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 04:54:29 AM by bkdubs123 »

Prime32

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Re: Punch, kick, it's all in the mind [3.5]
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2011, 05:35:10 PM »
My last edit to the OP started as "if anyone can get the extra attack then Flurry of Blows is basically Multiattack" and grew...

Whenever you provoke an attack of opportunity from a 17th-level monk you go to combo hell.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2011, 05:49:25 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

solara

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Re: Punch, kick, it's all in the mind [3.5]
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2011, 05:40:43 PM »
Unarmed strikes are considered simple weapons for the purposes of proficiency, and you gain a +2 bonus on attack rolls made with them. In addition, you may apply the better of your Str or Dex modifiers to attack rolls. However, using an unarmed strike provokes an attack of opportunity unless you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.

Make Unarmed Strike a simple weapon dealing 1d3 damage, with +2 to hit, and free weapon finesse. Using an unarmed strike against a foe that either has a primary natural attack, or that is wielding a weapon provokes an attack of opportunity. Using an unarmed strike against a creature with only a secondary natural attack, or that isn't wielding a weapon, does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Quote
When performing the trip, bull rush or grapple special attacks you may choose to deliver it via an unarmed strike, in which case you are treated as one size category larger than normal for opposed rolls made as part of that attack. Likewise, an unarmed strike is considered a two-handed weapon when making disarm attempts, or in any other case where the size of your weapon would give you an advantage. Performing one of these maneuvers does not otherwise provoke an AoO.

Make Improved Unarmed Strike a martial weapon dealing 1d6 damage, with +2 to hit, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity when used against any creatures. Improved Unarmed Strike would also benefit from the above special maneuvers rules, but the simple weapon Unarmed Strike would not. Unlike other martial weapons, Improved Unarmed Strike cannot be used without proficiency.

It would be interesting to have Unarmed Strike and Improved Unarmed Strike follow some of the rules for natural attacks. For example, the ability to treat an Unarmed Strike as a secondary natural weapon would be nice, allowing a full attack with a Greatsword with no penalty, followed up by a knee strike at -5 to hit.

I like this quite a bit. One of my biggest pet peeves about D&D, and the way people seem to envision fighting with weapons in general, is that as soon as they grab a knife they forget their other limbs. But if you look at the truly dangerous fighters (escrima, etc) they use ALL their weapons - fists, knees, feet, head, shoulders, and body. I've always wanted to see something like this in D&D, truthfully.

Maybe, to keep from having an arbitrary number of natural attacks (for simplicity's sake) the Improved Unarmed Strike feat lets them designate one unarmed strike (feet, knee, elbow, hand) that they can use like a secondary natural attack. To get more of these, they have to take "Extra Unarmed Strike" or something, which gives them one more unarmed strike which is treated like a secondary natural attack. So you get flexibility and some character building in, explaining which unarmed strikes you use and how (an elbow with your shield arm seems particularly awesome and vicious, for example).

I'll stop rambling now.

bkdubs123

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Re: Punch, kick, it's all in the mind [3.5]
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2011, 06:34:01 PM »
I like this quite a bit. One of my biggest pet peeves about D&D, and the way people seem to envision fighting with weapons in general, is that as soon as they grab a knife they forget their other limbs. But if you look at the truly dangerous fighters (escrima, etc) they use ALL their weapons - fists, knees, feet, head, shoulders, and body. I've always wanted to see something like this in D&D, truthfully.

Maybe, to keep from having an arbitrary number of natural attacks (for simplicity's sake) the Improved Unarmed Strike feat lets them designate one unarmed strike (feet, knee, elbow, hand) that they can use like a secondary natural attack. To get more of these, they have to take "Extra Unarmed Strike" or something, which gives them one more unarmed strike which is treated like a secondary natural attack. So you get flexibility and some character building in, explaining which unarmed strikes you use and how (an elbow with your shield arm seems particularly awesome and vicious, for example).

I'll stop rambling now.

I was considering rules along those same lines myself. I was thinking that Improved Unarmed Strike can't be used as a secondary natural attack, but a character that is proficient with both Unarmed Strike and Improved Unarmed Strike may use Unarmed Strike as a secondary natural attack, choosing a single type of strike (feet, knee, elbow, hand, head), and using only that as a secondary attack. That way, sure, martial weapons proficient characters can get a free extra attack at -5, but at the price of low damage and probably provoking an attack of opportunity. So, it seems like a fair trade.

Oh, and I added this to my post above:

EDIT: Unarmed Strike and Improved Unarmed Strike are Light, Off-Hand weapons, however both may benefit from Power Attack as though they were One-Handed weapons. Improved Unarmed Strike may be wielded in two hands. If it is, it may benefit from Power Attack as though it was a Two-Handed weapon.

EDIT: Superior Unarmed Strike is an exotic weapon dealing 1d8 damage +1 weapon size per five character levels (6d6 at 20th level), with +2 to hit and free weapon finesse. When you successfully hit a creature with Superior Unarmed Strike and deal damage you may make an attack of opportunity with an Unarmed Strike (if you are proficient). When you successfully confirm a critical hit with Superior Unarmed Strike and deal damage you may make an attack of opportunity with an Improved Unarmed Strike (if you are proficient).

When performing the trip, bull rush or grapple special attacks you may choose to deliver it via a Superior Unarmed Strike, in which case you are treated as one size category larger than normal for opposed rolls made as part of that attack, and a further size category larger than normal for every additional weapon size your Superior Unarmed Strike has acquired from your character levels.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 04:54:49 AM by bkdubs123 »