Author Topic: Strangest Black Tentacles I ever did see.  (Read 9377 times)

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Whisper

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Strangest Black Tentacles I ever did see.
« on: April 06, 2011, 11:31:54 PM »
isn't attacked again even if it stays in the area (because it's not "entering").

Suddenly, we had gone from hosing the foe completely to providing them with free cover. They could have a picnic in the midst of the Field of Eldritch Horror(tm), because somebody thought that "anyone who enters is attacked" meant that anyone who stays in... isn't.

What's the weirdest interpretation of rules language you ever saw?

SneeR

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Re: Strangest Black Tentacles I ever did see.
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2011, 12:31:04 AM »
That stinks.

I've had Identify fail to identify the properties of something. Granted the DM was new and he was trying to make the item into some sort of cursed Macguffin, but it bugged me when he said I wasted an Identify by telling me, "You have never seen this kind of magic before. You have no idea what it does or what school it is from."

NO, DUH! That's why I cast Indetify!
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RobbyPants

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Re: Strangest Black Tentacles I ever did see.
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2011, 10:36:00 AM »
I never noticed that.  Is that really the RAW interpretation?  I've never ran or played it that way, but I never looked that closely.  I hope not!  That's my Dread Necro's third favorite spell (well probably forth now that I just picked up Acid Fog)!
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Garryl

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Re: Strangest Black Tentacles I ever did see.
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2011, 12:50:22 PM »
I can see the interpretation that once a creature gets free of the tentacles, they stop grappling him until he leaves and re-enters, since the directive to attack and/or grapple only triggers:
a) When the spell is cast.
b) Every round on your turn (towards creatures that have been grappled). May also apply to non-grappled creatures that once were grappled, but the instruction is to perform a grapple check to deal damage, which is only applicable inside a grapple. This directive also ends when the creature escapes, so that's another point against re-grappling creatures in the area.
c) Upon entering the area. This instruction is actually an attack (which presumably gets resolved as a grapple). From the stats provided, the tentacles have an attack bonus of CL + 4 Str - 1 size that they should need to succeed with (a touch attack) to begin the grapple, followed by the opposed grapple check as normal.

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Whisper

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Re: Strangest Black Tentacles I ever did see.
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2011, 04:24:40 PM »
The relevant lines are:

>They grasp and entwine around creatures that enter the area,

>Every creature within the area of the spell must make a grapple check, opposed by the grapple check of the tentacles.

>Any creature that enters the area of the spell is immediately attacked by the tentacles.

So it could be interpreted this way, but just because a creature who enters the area is immediately attacked does not mean that a creature who's already in the area isn't. This is elementary logic.

I think the relevant language is "every creature within the area of the spell".

Other interpretations lead to absurd conclusions... you could sit down and have a picnic with tea and cakes in the middle of the spell, once you had escaped the initial grapple. And one envisions smaller tentacles with a little hand-stamp: "Okay, you've been grappled once, you're free to go."

I am working on ways to use this as defensive structure, thereby demonstrating to the GM that he has made this into a senseless help-the-monsters spell that no one would ever cast.

If I had a reliable way to make that first grapple fail... hmmm.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Strangest Black Tentacles I ever did see.
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2011, 04:30:57 PM »
Freedom of Movement, dismissed as soon as you've entered.
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Whisper

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Re: Strangest Black Tentacles I ever did see.
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2011, 04:36:13 PM »
Freedom of Movement, dismissed as soon as you've entered.

Well, yes, obviously, but I need it to be cheaper than that. Because it makes sense to use Black Tentacles as a defensive structure when you all have FoM... just don't dismiss it.

I need a way for the players to be in the field, without having any defense against the tentacles running, and be grappled because they aren't "entering" it... a technique that points out the ridiculousness of this interpretation.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Strangest Black Tentacles I ever did see.
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2011, 06:48:28 PM »
I need a way for the players to be in the field, without having any defense against the tentacles running, and be grappled because they aren't "entering" it... a technique that points out the ridiculousness of this interpretation.
Just cast the spell where you're already standing.  You aren't "entering" the area if it's being created around you.
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oslecamo

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Re: Strangest Black Tentacles I ever did see.
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2011, 08:10:30 PM »
Oh noes! The DM won't interpret the spell in a way that it rapes everything for little cost! What have we come to? Oponents who make their checks geting some time off? Heresy! Casters must dominate everything, even if the RAW is questionable!

I just find it hilarious that caster players just love to twist RAW to their benefit at every oportunity, but when said strategy is turned against them, then they start complaining like this.

Seriously, I support your DM. The RAW is indeed questionable, and super grappling machine may indeed be a bit too much for a 4th level spell.

The spell it's still far from useless, as oponents still need to get out from the grapple, and it discourages oponents from entering the area, plus slowing them down, wich blocks charges and, well, slows oponents down. It is still good battlefield control.

And if you want to stay inside it so it provides you cover and makes enemies thing twice before closing for melee, good for you then!

SneeR

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Re: Strangest Black Tentacles I ever did see.
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2011, 08:31:22 PM »
I just find it hilarious that caster players just love to twist RAW to their benefit at every oportunity, but when said strategy is turned against them, then they start complaining like this.

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I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
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Whisper

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Re: Strangest Black Tentacles I ever did see.
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2011, 09:21:46 PM »
Oh noes! The DM won't interpret the spell in a way that it rapes everything for little cost! What have we come to? Oponents who make their checks geting some time off? Heresy! Casters must dominate everything, even if the RAW is questionable!

I just find it hilarious that caster players just love to twist RAW to their benefit at every oportunity, but when said strategy is turned against them, then they start complaining like this.

Seriously, I support your DM. The RAW is indeed questionable, and super grappling machine may indeed be a bit too much for a 4th level spell.

The spell it's still far from useless, as oponents still need to get out from the grapple, and it discourages oponents from entering the area, plus slowing them down, wich blocks charges and, well, slows oponents down. It is still good battlefield control.

And if you want to stay inside it so it provides you cover and makes enemies thing twice before closing for melee, good for you then!


I'm a fan of RAI, rather than RAW.

What bothers me is not the lack of power (can always prepare some other spell with less ambiguous text), but the ridiculousness of it.

They're tentacles, for the Flying Spaghetti Monster's sake. They don't have any eyes. There's no brain attached. How on earth is it supposed to know who it has and hasn't attacked? Why is it supposed to care?


JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: Strangest Black Tentacles I ever did see.
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2011, 04:21:09 AM »
Oh noes! ... in a way that it rapes everything for little cost!

This spell conjures a field of rubbery black tentacles, each 10 feet long. These waving members...

(quoted from srd for your convenience)
makes sense to me  ;)
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Psithief

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Re: Strangest Black Tentacles I ever did see.
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2011, 08:39:43 AM »
This has never come up for me.
Strangely my players have never beaten the tentacles' grapple check.

:D I must be a mean DM.

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Re: Strangest Black Tentacles I ever did see.
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2011, 02:05:17 PM »
... one envisions smaller tentacles with a little hand-stamp: "Okay, you've been grappled once, you're free to go."

Lol, that's a great image.  :lmao

For some reason, this makes me think of the TSA. I wonder why...

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Strangest Black Tentacles I ever did see.
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2011, 03:30:35 PM »
... one envisions smaller tentacles with a little hand-stamp: "Okay, you've been grappled once, you're free to go."

Lol, that's a great image.  :lmao

For some reason, this makes me think of the TSA. I wonder why...
It's the tentacular rapage.
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ZeroKnight

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Re: Strangest Black Tentacles I ever did see.
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2011, 10:36:10 PM »
Oh noes! The DM won't interpret the spell in a way that it rapes everything for little cost! What have we come to? Oponents who make their checks geting some time off? Heresy! Casters must dominate everything, even if the RAW is questionable!

I just find it hilarious that caster players just love to twist RAW to their benefit at every oportunity, but when said strategy is turned against them, then they start complaining like this.

Seriously, I support your DM. The RAW is indeed questionable, and super grappling machine may indeed be a bit too much for a 4th level spell.

The spell it's still far from useless, as oponents still need to get out from the grapple, and it discourages oponents from entering the area, plus slowing them down, wich blocks charges and, well, slows oponents down. It is still good battlefield control.

And if you want to stay inside it so it provides you cover and makes enemies thing twice before closing for melee, good for you then!


I'm a fan of RAI, rather than RAW.

What bothers me is not the lack of power (can always prepare some other spell with less ambiguous text), but the ridiculousness of it.

They're tentacles, for the Flying Spaghetti Monster's sake. They don't have any eyes. There's no brain attached. How on earth is it supposed to know who it has and hasn't attacked? Why is it supposed to care?



Ummm, why are you trying to use logic on a spell? If it doesnt have eyes or a brain, then it should just wiggle around and do nothing, cause how does it even know there is there anyone there to attack, let alone how to attack.

oslecamo

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Re: Strangest Black Tentacles I ever did see.
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2011, 11:03:36 PM »
Ummm, why are you trying to use logic on a spell? If it doesnt have eyes or a brain, then it should just wiggle around and do nothing, cause how does it even know there is there anyone there to attack, let alone how to attack.

This. The tentacles are also invulnerable to mundane attacks, and have the same ease of grappling of creature or a dozen as long as they fill the area (so you have an infinite number of tentacles, but they never try to gank on somebody). And they auto-hit despite no discernible sensory organs. The spell was never that much logic to begin with!

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Strangest Black Tentacles I ever did see.
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2011, 11:09:51 PM »
have the same ease of grappling of creature or a dozen as long as they fill the area (so you have an infinite number of tentacles, but they never try to gank on somebody). And they auto-hit despite no discernible sensory organs.
That isn't really nonsensical.  If you have the entire surface coated with tentacles that flail around wildly, it's completely possible that there's not enough space to avoid getting hit by them (I assume a sense of touch, but that should be a given).  And once you get hit, if the grapple check succeeds all the tentacles that can reach you managed to flail on.  I don't see why some tentacles 10' away should care about you.
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oslecamo

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Re: Strangest Black Tentacles I ever did see.
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2011, 11:57:04 PM »
have the same ease of grappling of creature or a dozen as long as they fill the area (so you have an infinite number of tentacles, but they never try to gank on somebody). And they auto-hit despite no discernible sensory organs.
That isn't really nonsensical.  If you have the entire surface coated with tentacles that flail around wildly, it's completely possible that there's not enough space to avoid getting hit by them (I assume a sense of touch, but that should be a given).  And once you get hit, if the grapple check succeeds all the tentacles that can reach you managed to flail on.  I don't see why some tentacles 10' away should care about you.

They should if I'm a 10 feet creature.

And again it's not wild flailing. It's godlike precision of sublime kung-fu that never misses.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Strangest Black Tentacles I ever did see.
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2011, 12:26:20 AM »
And again it's not wild flailing. It's godlike precision of sublime kung-fu that never misses.
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