Author Topic: Putting Tier 1 casters in their place  (Read 7092 times)

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wotmaniac

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Putting Tier 1 casters in their place
« on: April 05, 2011, 03:31:53 PM »
In my effort to do my own "rebalancing", I've been brainstorming ideas on how to bring T1 casters down a peg or 2.
There seem to be 3 things that cause full casters down to T2 or T3: delayed advancement, truncated spell list, and dual-stat casting.  Sometimes it's only a single thing, sometimes it's some sort of combination.
What I would like to know from you guys is how you would feel about the following adjustments to the T1 casters:

Dual-stat casting:  All casters would base the DC of their spells and # of bonus spells off of CHA modifier.  Highest spell level known/available would be based on INT for arcane casters, and WIS for divine casters.  (I keep waffling back and forth on the # of bonus spells, between having it based on CHA or INT/WIS).
The fluff:
CHA is described in the PHB as (amongst other things) "force of personality", and later as "strength of personality".  So, basically this would represent the amount of your own essence you are able to put behind your spells.  INT/WIS represents your capacity to comprehend the complexity of a given spell (i.e., its spell level).
As for my waffling -- if INT/WIS were to determine your # of bonus spells, it would represent your capacity for remembering spells; if this is determined by CHA, it would represent your depth of personal power reserves.  I'm leaning towards bonus spells being CHA-based simply to avoid the situation where everybody automatically dumps CHA and only uses no-save spells.
ALTERNATIVELY: Leave base casting stat where it is, having it determine the highest spell level known; and have CON determine DC and bonus spells.

Spell preparation:  I must say, I really like how Spirit Shaman handles this: retrieve X amount of spells each day, then use those as you like.  It just makes more sense than traditional prepared-casting.

Now, I really must say, I have a deep-seeded hatred for vancian casting -- I have since I first started playing this game back in '94.  It just doesn't make any sense.  Spell points, on the other hand, make perfect sense.  And if I'm doing spell points, I might as well do spontaneous metamagic. 
Hell, while I'm at it, I might as well go ahead and institute some sort of "casting focus" that mirrors psionic focus. 

Now, doing this would seem to bring wizards and sorcerers too close together to be distinguishable from one another (at least in play).  As such, under these changes, I propose to basically eliminate either the sorcerer or the generalist wizard (and I'm leaning towards eliminating the generalist wizard).  Specialists wizards would be pushed in to the variants described in UA.

I should also note that my group doesn't really get in to the non-Core casters, so they aren't really big on my radar.  However, any of the non-Core casters could easily be converted (hell, half the work is done already inside the classes themselves).


Well, it's a start.  Thoughts?


thanks. :)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 03:33:52 PM by wotmaniac »

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Re: Putting Tier 1 casters in their place
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2011, 03:48:35 PM »
Now, I really must say, I have a deep-seeded hatred for vancian casting -- I have since I first started playing this game back in '94.  It just doesn't make any sense.

I take it you've never read any of Jack Vance's works have you? Vanican Casting may be horribly unbalanced in DnD, but it does make sense if you are familiar with the original source. They just couldn't copy-pasta those rules because of lawsuits.


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wotmaniac

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Re: Putting Tier 1 casters in their place
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2011, 04:11:44 PM »
Alas, I have not.
I have, however, read and heard multiple explanations from people who have ..... maybe it just doesn't translate the same without the full context (i.e., reading the books).  :shrug
the psionics mechanics just seem much more intuitive (and part of me died when the WoT RPG decided to go with the vancian model, instead of the psionic model -- which matches perfectly!)

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Putting Tier 1 casters in their place
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2011, 04:15:43 PM »
Alas, I have not.
I have, however, read and heard multiple explanations from people who have ..... maybe it just doesn't translate the same without the full context (i.e., reading the books).  :shrug
the psionics mechanics just seem much more intuitive (and part of me died when the WoT RPG decided to go with the vancian model, instead of the psionic model -- which matches perfectly!)

I like to think of it as being similar to robotic soldiers programmed for one task, but that's because I have a wild imagination.


And you're right about the WoT thing.


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veekie

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Re: Putting Tier 1 casters in their place
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2011, 04:39:01 PM »
Bigger hit will have to be the spell list. I mean, screwing with the rest just reduces how many times a day they can completely change a situation. Devil's in the details.
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wotmaniac

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Re: Putting Tier 1 casters in their place
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2011, 05:05:56 PM »
yes, certain spells do need pruning/nerfing.  those are done on a case-by-case basis.  Many times, it's just a simple matter to alter the spell(s) in small ways, and still get large effects. 

screwing with the rest just reduces how many times a day they can completely change a situation.
Which, in and of itself, actually goes a long way.  This limits the amount of reactionary measures I have to take as a DM.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 05:09:09 PM by wotmaniac »

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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veekie

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Re: Putting Tier 1 casters in their place
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2011, 05:49:26 PM »
True that, making use of point systems also encourages them to make more careful use of resources, provided some at will stuff are available to be sufficiently magical at high levels.
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It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

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I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
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To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
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AleksanderTheGreat

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Re: Putting Tier 1 casters in their place
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2011, 05:54:18 PM »
Consider shifting spell levels a little. Make 9th level spells 20th level cap for casters. Something like:
1-2 level - 1st level spells
3-4 level - 2nd level spells
5-6 level - 3rd level spells
7-8 level - 4th level spells
9-10 level - 5th level spells
11-13 level - 6th level spells
14-16 level - 7th level spells
17-19 level - 8th level spells
20th level (cap) - 9th level spells

Make Sorc and Wizard progression the same but change HOW they are casting (I don't know if Wiz = vancian, Sorc = spontanous is enough).
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wotmaniac

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Re: Putting Tier 1 casters in their place
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2011, 06:11:17 PM »
interesting ....
I have run a "low magic" game, were the highest level spells were 7th-level -- followed the bard progression, and added 7th-level spells @ 19th level.  But otherwise, I'd rather keep the progression as standard.

I think I still want to stick with spell points for the whole thing -- it just makes things easier to deal with when it's under the same system.  As I said before, under the change listed above, there isn't enough differentiation between sorcerer and generalist wizard (especially once you toss in the dual-stat casting).  So, just have the sorcerer fill the role of "generalist" .... call the 1 level delay in gaining spell levels a function of taking more time to learn more stuff; since the wizards are more focused, it doesn't take them as long to master their craft (speaking of .... I'm actually considering forcing the specialists in to being focused specialists in order to further differentiate them .... maybe even toss the sorcerer a couple of more spells known, so that they can better fit that "generalist" role).
« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 06:13:14 PM by wotmaniac »

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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awaken DM golem

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Re: Putting Tier 1 casters in their place
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2011, 08:34:19 PM »
The 5/10 and 6/10 casting PrCs are basically ignored.
Make it so a Full Caster has to take one = well flavored nerf.

The 7/10 and 8/10 casting PrCs can be used by Mid Casters.
Bard + PsyWar + similar.

Renumbering the spell's level, is the next easiest quickest dirtiest fix.
Renumbering CR is a little more work.

wotmaniac

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Re: Putting Tier 1 casters in their place
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2011, 08:58:08 PM »
The 5/10 and 6/10 casting PrCs are basically ignored.
Make it so a Full Caster has to take one = well flavored nerf.
I, personally, don't mind taking some of those classes (depending on the concept, of course) -- there's usually something involved that lets me keep my bases covered.

Quote
The 7/10 and 8/10 casting PrCs can be used by Mid Casters.
Bard + PsyWar + similar.
Now, see, I'm not real big on messing with these guys -- this is about where I like the balance points for my games (maybe a little higher)

Quote
Renumbering the spell's level, is the next easiest quickest dirtiest fix.
I'm often just a little hesitant to do this.  I'll first see if there's something else I can do with it -- maybe add a save or SR where there is none ... stuff like that.  if that won't work, then I start adjusting levels.

Quote
Renumbering CR is a little more work.
... and a little more than I really care to do. ;)

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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Re: Putting Tier 1 casters in their place
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2011, 01:03:21 AM »
Dual-stat casting:  All casters would base the DC of their spells and # of bonus spells off of CHA modifier.  Highest spell level known/available would be based on INT for arcane casters, and WIS for divine casters.  (I keep waffling back and forth on the # of bonus spells, between having it based on CHA or INT/WIS).
The fluff:
CHA is described in the PHB as (amongst other things) "force of personality", and later as "strength of personality".  So, basically this would represent the amount of your own essence you are able to put behind your spells.  INT/WIS represents your capacity to comprehend the complexity of a given spell (i.e., its spell level).
As for my waffling -- if INT/WIS were to determine your # of bonus spells, it would represent your capacity for remembering spells; if this is determined by CHA, it would represent your depth of personal power reserves.  I'm leaning towards bonus spells being CHA-based simply to avoid the situation where everybody automatically dumps CHA and only uses no-save spells.
ALTERNATIVELY: Leave base casting stat where it is, having it determine the highest spell level known; and have CON determine DC and bonus spells.

I've used dual stat casting in the past. It helps but it's not exactly the panacea I hoped it would be. If one stat is used for highest level spell known, even mild CharOp simply calculates the minimum starting score and the expected advancements to barely meet the requirements for each spell level as it's gained. As has been mentioned, it's more the spells than the casting method, which you're well aware of.

One thing I've considered is simply making spell DCs dependent upon different ability mods depending on the spell. For example, the Poison spell might be DC 10 + spell level + caster's Con modifier while Dominate Person relies on Cha modifier for spell DC. The biggest problem is adding a new line to every damn spell. Another problem might be a caster simply picking all spells that use one or two stats for save DC. Looking over the SRD spells, there are simply a ton of spells that make the most sense to rely upon one of the mental ability scores. Ok, perhaps it's simply not feasible.

How about...

Using spell points:
One stat is used to derive the highest level spell. Traditionally this would be Int for arcane casters and Wis for divine casters.
Cha is used to determine spell save DCs.
Con is used to determine the number of spell points gained, emulating the physical strain placed on casters for tapping into the source of magic. Like skill points, raising the Con score through temporary means does not grant additional spell points.

I know casters usually place an emphasis on Con after their main stat, but this makes it even more of a balancing game.

You could even use the 4th stat to determine bonus spells known. (That is if you're going with a limited number known setup.) Though, to be honest, I can see this 4th stat having the least priority every time.

Arcane:
Int = highest level spell known
Wis = bonus spells known
Cha = spell save DCs
Con = spell points

Divine:
Int = bonus spells known
Wis = highest level spell known
Cha = spell save DCs
Con = spell points.

I'd make the flavor something akin to how hard it is to use the magic inherent in the world that it takes a very rare individual to do so with any degree of success.

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Re: Putting Tier 1 casters in their place
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2011, 04:38:55 PM »
One thing I've considered is simply making spell DCs dependent upon different ability mods depending on the spell. For example, the Poison spell might be DC 10 + spell level + caster's Con modifier while Dominate Person relies on Cha modifier for spell DC. The biggest problem is adding a new line to every damn spell. Another problem might be a caster simply picking all spells that use one or two stats for save DC. Looking over the SRD spells, there are simply a ton of spells that make the most sense to rely upon one of the mental ability scores. Ok, perhaps it's simply not feasible.

On the one hand, 3.0 psionics used different stats for different disciplines and that was considered to be a terribad idea, and rightly so for that implementation.

On the other hand, if you split up save DCs and bonus spells by different ability scores based on their function (like, I don't know, self-buffs are Str-based because the spells take a toll on your body, blasting is Dex-based for aiming, debuffs are Cha-based for overpowering enemy minds/resistance, etc.), and you ensure that the best categories like buffs and BC are on less-important caster attributes and the worst categories like blasting are on more-important caster attributes, you reduce the power of GOD wizards and CoDzillas and such (GOD wizards are MAD, CoDzillas need to prioritize Str where they used to only need buffs) while simultaneously making blasting the easiest and most SAD choice (everyone wants Dex).  Just like taking the really good spells out of Conjuration and assigning them to the schools they should have weakens the god school while making the others more attractive, making it so that a controller/debuffer/buffer is more MAD than a blaster would certainly weaken the Tier 1s to some extent.

On the gripping hand, whether blasting is what you want to incentivize in order to make casters less able to solo the game or whether you want to incentivize buffing even more so they work together well with noncasters in the party is a different concern.  It's definitely a nerf, but I don't know if it's the right kind of nerf.

veekie

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Re: Putting Tier 1 casters in their place
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2011, 06:08:29 PM »
Note that Extreme MAD-ness is just as bad as mono-stat, ideally no more than 2 primary stats and a secondary before they start verging on nonfunctional.
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[spoiler]
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oslecamo

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Re: Putting Tier 1 casters in their place
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2011, 06:46:15 PM »
Note that Extreme MAD-ness is just as bad as mono-stat, ideally no more than 2 primary stats and a secondary before they start verging on nonfunctional.

That's precisely the idea. The caster can be a transmuter or a illusionist or whatever, but cannot be an omnipotent god with every damn magic school whitin easy reach. Wich is precisely what makes wizards and clerics so damn powerfull to begin with.

And since we're at it, take away from conjuration all the stuff they stole and give it to the other schools. I'm looking at you orbs, teleport, ect, ect.


Soda

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Re: Putting Tier 1 casters in their place
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2011, 08:01:40 PM »
What school should teleports belong to?

wotmaniac

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Re: Putting Tier 1 casters in their place
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2011, 09:39:24 PM »
WOW!  That's some serious MAD.  :shock
quick note on 3.0 psionics -- while it was a cool idea (that, from a fluff angle, I really liked), I think the reason that it was bad in practice is that not all ability scores are created equal.  I mean, who's not going to take only CON/DEX -based disciplines?

As I think on it, if you wanted to make DCs dependent on several scores, my instinct would be to do it like this: fort = con ; refl = dex ; will = cha (and it looks like the fluff has already been discussed). 
However, different stats for different saves seems a bit extreme -- under this, you'd only be casting spells of a single type of save.  Initially, this seems like it might be pretty cool -- you'd definitely get a certain type of specialization that would narrowly define your character -- however, this seems like it'd be overly-redundant.  Sorcerers (which would serve as my generalists) would get passed over completely .... if you're gonna be restricted to no-save spells, that means buffs and BFC; which necessarily means that you'd be better off going transmuter/conjurer.  Specialists will typically be concentrating primarily on a single type of save anyway, so further diluting the save mechanic will completely disincentivize generalist casting. 
Furthermore, in reference to further diluting the MAD -- unless you directly tie DCs to an ability that also supports another important casting aspect, then you will disproportionately encourage no-save spells (through discouraging save spells).  Additionally, too much dilution will completely homogenize casters.  They're gonna have to have at least a 19 in one stat, then boost the bonus spells/day stat next, followed by bonus spells known, and DCs last.  In effect, what you're left with is a small list of no-save spells.
IOW, what veekie said.

Now to divine casters.
The druid seems to be an easy fix -- shapeshifter.  done (well, in addition to dual-stat casting).  Since they arguably have the weakest spell list of any of the Core full casters, chopping down their other key class features appears to do the job (on second thought, would the dual-stat casting even be necessary?  I'm sure that there are some sort of shenanigans that I'm missing; probably involving fluff-inappropriate PrCs.).
Now I'm stuck on what to do about clerics.  One thought was to make domain spells key off of different abilities, but then you're back at 3.0 psionics.  Another thought was to completely ditch domains as an automatic class feature, and relegate them to feats .... but that doesn't work because it doesn't really address the problems -- it only further restricts them in the feat economy, which isn't the problem.  Making them more MAD doesn't really do it either, since they're already a little MAD to begin with. 
That being said, since there doesn't seem to be any "easy" or "convenient" fixes, I propose just doing a rebuild of the cleric by making the following changes:
- chassis = d4 HD, weak BAB, good WILL, 2 skill points/level.
- # of Turn attempts = 4 + 1/5 level (since dual-stat casting would necessarily and artificially inflate turn attempts otherwise).
- offer options for buffing the chassis at the expense of casting (similar to stalwart/battle sorcerer).
This is just brainstorming -- let me know what you think.


Note that Extreme MAD-ness is just as bad as mono-stat, ideally no more than 2 primary stats and a secondary before they start verging on nonfunctional.
That's precisely the idea. The caster can be a transmuter or a illusionist or whatever, but cannot be an omnipotent god with every damn magic school whitin easy reach. Wich is precisely what makes wizards and clerics so damn powerfull to begin with.
but there is such a thing as going too far.

Quote
And since we're at it, take away from conjuration all the stuff they stole and give it to the other schools. I'm looking at you orbs, teleport, ect, ect.
While the orbs probably should get kicked over to evocation (or, at least just tack on a save and/or SR -- if that gets done, then I'm fine with it staying in conjuration); teleport, however, originated in transmutation (called "alteration" in 2ndEd) -- yeah, like transmutation needs any more spells (never mind that the fluff of conjuration best fits teleport). 
I'm just sayin'.

What school should teleports belong to?
fluff seems to indeed indicate conjuration.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 09:45:10 PM by wotmaniac »

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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oslecamo

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Re: Putting Tier 1 casters in their place
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2011, 10:44:44 PM »
WOW!  That's some serious MAD.  :shock
quick note on 3.0 psionics -- while it was a cool idea (that, from a fluff angle, I really liked), I think the reason that it was bad in practice is that not all ability scores are created equal.  I mean, who's not going to take only CON/DEX -based disciplines?

Strenght-Transmutation.
Contitution-Evocation.
Dexterity-Enchantment.
Intelegence-Illusion.
Wisdom-Abjuration.
Charisma-Conjuration.

So what were you saying about Con/Dex casters being imba with this system? :smirk

Schools are not exactly equal as well, so we can kill two birds with one stone. Best stats get worst schools and vice-versa.

SneeR

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Re: Putting Tier 1 casters in their place
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2011, 11:59:59 PM »
WOW!  That's some serious MAD.  :shock
quick note on 3.0 psionics -- while it was a cool idea (that, from a fluff angle, I really liked), I think the reason that it was bad in practice is that not all ability scores are created equal.  I mean, who's not going to take only CON/DEX -based disciplines?

Strenght-Transmutation.
Contitution-Evocation.
Dexterity-Enchantment.
Intelegence-Illusion.
Wisdom-Abjuration.
Charisma-Conjuration.

So what were you saying about Con/Dex casters being imba with this system? :smirk

Schools are not exactly equal as well, so we can kill two birds with one stone. Best stats get worst schools and vice-versa.

Switch Conjuration and Illusion. I suppose it makes sense that how meticulous an illusion you can make is based on INT, but I always associated illusionits with charismatic liars and conjuration with boring bookworms.
The answer to everything:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
SneeR
[spoiler]
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
When another driver brandishes a holy symbol and begins glowing with divine light, seek cover or get spattered with zombie brains. I do not see what is so complicated about this.
[/spoiler]

Eldritch_Lord

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
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  • Posts: 31
Re: Putting Tier 1 casters in their place
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2011, 01:37:24 AM »
Switch Conjuration and Illusion. I suppose it makes sense that how meticulous an illusion you can make is based on INT, but I always associated illusionits with charismatic liars and conjuration with boring bookworms.

1) Conjuration > Illusion, and Int > Cha, so from a mechanical perspective, we don't want Conjuration = Int and Illusion = Cha.

2) While charismatic people might make good liars, good liars don't necessarily make good illusions.  What they do make is good bargains with extradimensional creatures, and thus would be good at Conjuring outsiders and such.  As mentioned already, Illusionists need Int to make their illusions look and act realistically.

3) This division also makes it so wizards are best at Illusions (good, since D&D illusionists are traditionally wizards; we don't want a repeat of the "Clerics are better necromancers than Necromancers" problem), divine casters are best at Abjurations (good, since divine casters are the party buffers in the usual blasty/healy/sneaky/fighty group), and sorcerers and bards are best at Conjuration (good, since sorcerers have the whole "bloodline of dragons/outsiders/fey/etc." thing going on and bards would logically make the best deals).


Question: Where would Necromancy go?  Since we're reapportioning Conjuration spells already, I have a suggestion: Get rid of Necromancy.  Essentially, it does three things: create undead, sap or interfere with life force (possibly lethally), and interact with souls/spirits.  The creation of undead can be moved to Transmutation (to go with animate objects and awaken); the manipulation of life force is essentially manipulating positive and negative energy, which falls under Evocation; interaction with souls and spirits falls under either Divination (for speak with dead and such) or Conjuration (for magic jar and its ilk).  Transferring the more niche spells is obvious (death ward to Abjuration, cause fear to Enchantment, poison to Conjuration, and so forth).

After splitting up Necromancy, that just leaves Divination without an associated ability score, which we could simply assign to the existing key ability scores of spellcasting classes, to give a reason to keep those scores higher than the minimum and thus reinforce MAD and to ensure that all casting classes are essentially equally good with Divination as they are now.