Author Topic: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5  (Read 17563 times)

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SorO_Lost

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2011, 08:11:44 PM »
Also, you start taking damage below 40 degrees Fahrenheit while wearing normal clothing.  It's nonlethal cold damage, but it's still cold damage.
No it's not. There is no such thing as 'nonlethal cold' damage being dealt by environmental effects. You take nonlethal damage from being cold yes and this lines up exactly my point. 32 degrees (freezing point of water) is still nothing more than nonlethal damage, IE not as cold as [Cold] damage.

How cold does it have to be for damage from being cold become [Cold] damage?
Frostburn says it has to be -50 degrees before you can even take [Cold] damage from the elements. There is your scale.

On the subject of fire, nice example btw, the DMG (pg 303 btw) notes instantaneous fire based spells normally don't light people on fire since the heat is only there for a moment. In cased you forgot. Catching on fire and being burned are two separate things. If you want to argue that then try not using oven mitts some time instead of posting a rebuttal. Also recall the difference between Fire Point and Self-Ignition. Example, a flame can light cotton on fire at 210 degrees but to light it on fire without using an already burning fire requires over 700 degrees of heat. A not-composed-of-fire heat spells, like scorching ray, will have a heck of a time lighting anything.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2011, 09:09:06 PM »
Quote
Example, a flame can light cotton on fire at 210 degrees but to light it on fire without using an already burning fire requires over 700 degrees of heat. A not-composed-of-fire heat spells, like scorching ray, will have a heck of a time lighting anything.
Yet fireball, a literal ball made of already burning fire, can't light a bucket of oily rags on fire.
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wotmaniac

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2011, 09:32:06 PM »
I thought that unattended objects had to save or catch fire.  :shrug

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
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SorO_Lost

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2011, 02:07:44 AM »
Quote
Example, a flame can light cotton on fire at 210 degrees but to light it on fire without using an already burning fire requires over 700 degrees of heat. A not-composed-of-fire heat spells, like scorching ray, will have a heck of a time lighting anything.
Yet fireball, a literal ball made of already burning fire, can't light a bucket of oily rags on fire.

Large image contained there in.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Quote from: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm
The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.
1. It does light stuff on fire.
2. Melting point of gold is 1,947.52 degrees. Luckily iron is 2,797.

This is very unbecoming of you TML. Have you been getting enough sleep? I'm the one that's supposed to half quote stuff >.>
« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 02:18:11 AM by SorO_Lost »
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2011, 05:22:22 AM »
Fair enough.  I looked up the glossary entry for being set on fire.  I really should remember that the glossary is incoherent at best.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_catchingonfire&alpha=

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CrimsonDeath

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2011, 05:48:33 AM »
Also, you start taking damage below 40 degrees Fahrenheit while wearing normal clothing.  It's nonlethal cold damage, but it's still cold damage.
No it's not. There is no such thing as 'nonlethal cold' damage being dealt by environmental effects. You take nonlethal damage from being cold yes and this lines up exactly my point. 32 degrees (freezing point of water) is still nothing more than nonlethal damage, IE not as cold as [Cold] damage.

How cold does it have to be for damage from being cold become [Cold] damage?
Frostburn says it has to be -50 degrees before you can even take [Cold] damage from the elements. There is your scale.
You might want to thumb through that How to Read a Book book of yours.  On the very next page of Frostburn, it says that Cold Resistance applies to nonlethal damage from cold environments (separately from and in addition to applying it to the lethal damage).  Sure, the example uses Unearthly Cold, but from the phrasing, it pretty explicitly applies to warmer temperature bands as well.

I also checked Sandstorm (just out of curiosity), and it says the same thing about fire resistance in hot weather.

McPoyo

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2011, 10:19:29 AM »
Also, you start taking damage below 40 degrees Fahrenheit while wearing normal clothing.  It's nonlethal cold damage, but it's still cold damage.
No it's not. There is no such thing as 'nonlethal cold' damage being dealt by environmental effects. You take nonlethal damage from being cold yes and this lines up exactly my point. 32 degrees (freezing point of water) is still nothing more than nonlethal damage, IE not as cold as [Cold] damage.

How cold does it have to be for damage from being cold become [Cold] damage?
Frostburn says it has to be -50 degrees before you can even take [Cold] damage from the elements. There is your scale.
You might want to thumb through that How to Read a Book book of yours.  On the very next page of Frostburn, it says that Cold Resistance applies to nonlethal damage from cold environments (separately from and in addition to applying it to the lethal damage).  Sure, the example uses Unearthly Cold, but from the phrasing, it pretty explicitly applies to warmer temperature bands as well.

I also checked Sandstorm (just out of curiosity), and it says the same thing about fire resistance in hot weather.
Dude, why would resistance to something not help against a weaker version of that something. It's like saying fireproof gloves protect you from open flame but not a warm plate.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2011, 02:17:03 PM »
You might want to thumb through that How to Read a Book book of yours.  On the very next page of Frostburn, it says that Cold Resistance applies to nonlethal damage from cold environments (separately from and in addition to applying it to the lethal damage).  Sure, the example uses Unearthly Cold, but from the phrasing, it pretty explicitly applies to warmer temperature bands as well.

I also checked Sandstorm (just out of curiosity), and it says the same thing about fire resistance in hot weather.
*points*
Also, you start taking damage below 40 degrees Fahrenheit while wearing normal clothing.  It's nonlethal cold damage, but it's still cold damage.
No it's not. There is no such thing as 'nonlethal cold' damage being dealt by environmental effects. You take nonlethal damage from being cold yes and this lines up exactly my point. 32 degrees (freezing point of water) is still nothing more than nonlethal damage, IE not as cold as [Cold] damage.

How cold does it have to be for damage from being cold become [Cold] damage?
Frostburn says it has to be -50 degrees before you can even take [Cold] damage from the elements. There is your scale.
Perhaps every has having a fail day? Maybe I'm not explaining things clear enough.

Debate: [Cold] Damage freezes stuff thus giving you free ice for Snowcasting.
Point: Environmentally -40 degrees still only deals nonlethal damage.
Point: Environmentally -50 degrees is when you can start taking [Cold] Damage.
Conclusion: [Cold] Damage effects have a temperature range around -50 degrees or lower.

Tangent: Not all [Fire] Damage sets stuff on fire.
Why? Huge misconception: Fire is a result of heat, frozen is a result of cold therefor if no fire there cannot be freezing!
Fire isn't the result of heat, fire produces heat. Your 5th grade science teacher can explain it better than I can but here is the gist. Fire is a chemical reaction requiring; heat, fuel, oxygen, and chemical reaction. You have have heat, you can have fuel, you can have oxygen, but you won't have fire until you have all four elements. A real comparison would be melting vs freezing.

I've been plugging in various other things like...
[spoiler]2,912: The match Smoky warns you not to play with.
1,947: D&D's fireball spell.
1,000: Your crack pipe while browsing BG's forms.
400: Top of a light bulb (upright position).
350: Average baking temperature for food.
40: Refrigerator(cool compartment).
32: Freezing point of water.
32: D&D's Flash Frost Metamagic feat where ice is conjured frozen water.
20: Refrigerator(freeze compartment).
-3: Lowest temperature in Des Moines Iowa this year (so far).
-50: D&D's Ray of Frost.
-109: Dry Ice, it's capable of instantly freezing your skin just by touching it.
-368: D&D's Flash Frost Metamagic feat where it so was cold it froze the air to create ice (oxygen's freezing point).[/spoiler]
...To give you some understanding of just what people are failing to talk about here.

Anyway back on point. [Cold]'s temperature of -50 is not only below the freezing point of water (32 degrees) but its so far below it's certainly capable of freezing certain amounts of water instantly making even the lowest possible arcane spell quite capable of producing ice.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

CrimsonDeath

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2011, 03:55:34 PM »
I'm going to start off with something potentially helpful to the OP: Sleet Storm is a Conjuration (creation) [cold] effect that specifically generates ice-- specifically sleet.  If you're allowed spells from Frostburn, Glaze Lock is level one and last 10 minutes/level (six times that in cold weather) and creates ice and snow to jam a lock (you can just buy a cheap lock and carry it with you for portable ice).

You might want to thumb through that How to Read a Book book of yours.  On the very next page of Frostburn, it says that Cold Resistance applies to nonlethal damage from cold environments (separately from and in addition to applying it to the lethal damage).  Sure, the example uses Unearthly Cold, but from the phrasing, it pretty explicitly applies to warmer temperature bands as well.

I also checked Sandstorm (just out of curiosity), and it says the same thing about fire resistance in hot weather.
*points*
Also, you start taking damage below 40 degrees Fahrenheit while wearing normal clothing.  It's nonlethal cold damage, but it's still cold damage.
No it's not. There is no such thing as 'nonlethal cold' damage being dealt by environmental effects. You take nonlethal damage from being cold yes and this lines up exactly my point. 32 degrees (freezing point of water) is still nothing more than nonlethal damage, IE not as cold as [Cold] damage.

How cold does it have to be for damage from being cold become [Cold] damage?
Frostburn says it has to be -50 degrees before you can even take [Cold] damage from the elements. There is your scale.
Perhaps every has having a fail day? Maybe I'm not explaining things clear enough.

Debate: [Cold] Damage freezes stuff thus giving you free ice for Snowcasting.
Point: Environmentally -40 degrees still only deals nonlethal damage.
Point: Environmentally -50 degrees is when you can start taking [Cold] Damage.
Conclusion: [Cold] Damage effects have a temperature range around -50 degrees or lower.
Maybe I'm not being clear enough either.

From the glossary of the Monster Manual (primary source for monster abilities like energy resistance), Resist Energy allows a creature to ignore a certain amount of damage of a particular energy type each time it is dealt.  This is the general case: Energy resistance exactly and only reduces the amount of damage you take that is of the corresponding energy type.

In a specific case, Frostburn (the source you're using for temperature bands) states that the Resist Cold special quality reduces the amount of nonlethal damage dealt by cold environments.  Since this is the case, keeping in mind the above point, this nonlethal damage must also be cold damage.  So my point is that there is such a thing as nonlethal cold damage.  Are there other sources?  At least one more:  Stormwrack points out that cold resistance protects from the nonlethal damage that results from being submerged in cold water.  But it's not necessary to consider that, as you said there was no such thing, so only one counterexample is required.

Tangent: Not all [Fire] Damage sets stuff on fire.
Why? Huge misconception: Fire is a result of heat, frozen is a result of cold therefor if no fire there cannot be freezing!
Fire isn't the result of heat, fire produces heat. Your 5th grade science teacher can explain it better than I can but here is the gist. Fire is a chemical reaction requiring; heat, fuel, oxygen, and chemical reaction. You have have heat, you can have fuel, you can have oxygen, but you won't have fire until you have all four elements. A real comparison would be melting vs freezing.

I've been plugging in various other things like...
[spoiler]2,912: The match Smoky warns you not to play with.
1,947: D&D's fireball spell.
1,000: Your crack pipe while browsing BG's forms.
400: Top of a light bulb (upright position).
350: Average baking temperature for food.
40: Refrigerator(cool compartment).
32: Freezing point of water.
32: D&D's Flash Frost Metamagic feat where ice is conjured frozen water.
20: Refrigerator(freeze compartment).
-3: Lowest temperature in Des Moines Iowa this year (so far).
-50: D&D's Ray of Frost.
-109: Dry Ice, it's capable of instantly freezing your skin just by touching it.
-368: D&D's Flash Frost Metamagic feat where it so was cold it froze the air to create ice (oxygen's freezing point).[/spoiler]
...To give you some understanding of just what people are failing to talk about here.

Anyway back on point. [Cold]'s temperature of -50 is not only below the freezing point of water (32 degrees) but its so far below it's certainly capable of freezing certain amounts of water instantly making even the lowest possible arcane spell quite capable of producing ice.

SorO_Lost

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2011, 06:03:04 PM »
In a specific case, Frostburn (the source you're using for temperature bands) states that the Resist Cold special quality reduces the amount of nonlethal damage dealt by cold environments.  Since this is the case, keeping in mind the above point, this nonlethal damage must also be cold damage.  So my point is that there is such a thing as nonlethal cold damage.  Are there other sources?  At least one more:  Stormwrack points out that cold resistance protects from the nonlethal damage that results from being submerged in cold water.  But it's not necessary to consider that, as you said there was no such thing, so only one counterexample is required.
You REALLY need to pay attention. "You take nonlethal damage from being cold yes and this lines up exactly my point." Because you keep missing it. Completely and utterly. Let's come back to this in a second.

If not all fire damage sets things on fire, then it's reasonable enough to believe that not all cold damage freezes things.
What this right here says is you're an idiot. I just explained what fire is. I even highlighted the fact you can have heat/fuel/oxygen and still lack fire. Hell. I even said melting vs freezing is an accurate comparison. And you still think fire s a comparable term to freeze/melt. My poor teaching skills aside, you failed elementary school science and reading in one go. Next post, do some research so you don't screw that up too.

Now back to the cold dealing nonlethal damage - a topic you probably won't understand given the above display - you are trying to apply a damage type to an untyped source based on flavor while ignoring other rules.

1. Nonlethal damage doesn't require a type any more than damage does.
Details: Nonlethal slashing damage exists. It is the output of using a sword to deal nonlethal damage and it's subject to Damage Reduction just as nonlethal cold damage exists and that's subject to Cold Resistance. Falling Damage on the other hand is just plain damage and Forced March/Hustle also deals untyped nonlethal damage. Just because something is nonlethal doesn't mean it must be typed. "nonlethal from cold" != "nonlethal cold damage from cold" and said wording it used thought the entry meaning you outright have to battle against RAW. And hell, I don't even care if you did (see next).

2. RAW the nonlethal damage is not typed as Energy: [Cold] Damage. (I've been using [] markers to denote type or not btw).
Quote from: SRD
A character who takes any nonlethal damage from cold or exposure is beset by frostbite or hypothermia (treat her as fatigued). These penalties end when the character recovers the nonlethal damage she took from the cold and exposure.
What is this "or/and exposure" type of damage thing being mentioned? It's not even defined anywhere. Anyway. Let me find a better quote for my point.
Quote from: Frostburn
Yeah that works nicely.

If were go with the idea the nonlethal damage from cold is in fact [Cold] Damage then wearing a scarf (or w/e) is capable of preventing the 1d6 cold & 1d4 nonlethal damage of the Unearthly Cold range. But that is in direct contradiction of the rules. Frostburn says protection from cold has nothing to do with protection or resistance to the energy type [Cold]. [Cold] resistance blocks the nonlethal damage as noted (specific) but other effects that blocks the nonlethal damage cannot block [Cold] damage because they were never blocking [Cold] damage to begin with (general).

***

Now you're talking mass and shape dynamics. Those are certainly out of my league and clearly seems out of yours. The amount of water that can be frozen with a brief point it was at -50 degrees is higher than none. Making even the lowest possible arcane spell quite capable of producing ice (as I said). Amount certainly is a different story and way to undefined in the rules to handle and I'm sticking with it's enough to create a "hand full" since there are such things as fine sized spell casters. even my specific concept of Ray Of Frost can be proven ineffective by a chemist, while I'd miss it, it does not have any impact on the out come - [Cold] damage can freeze water by nature of being cold enough to do so. As observed by Frostburn's rules.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

CrimsonDeath

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2011, 08:47:07 PM »
What this right here says is you're an idiot.
And what this right here says is you're an asshole.  I can be polite as you can, so if you want to sprinkle ad hominem attacks in with actual legitimate attempts at argument, I can do that too.

I just explained what fire is. I even highlighted the fact you can have heat/fuel/oxygen and still lack fire.
Which has nothing to do with fire damage.  You can take fire damage from a Heat Metal spell, which lacks fuel and may lack oxygen.  Not that all fire damage explicitly melts things either, if you must stick to your analogy.  Fireball does, but there's no mention of exactly how other fire effects destroy objects they're used on, and the DMG has rules for catching on fire but not for melting.

1. Nonlethal damage doesn't require a type any more than damage does.
This is just a waste of everybody's time.  Who said nonlethal damage needs a type?  I just said it can have a type.  I'll admit that actually doesn't explicitly contradict any claim you had made, but it is pretty close to one of them, and I did at least set forth some evidence that you have yet to refute or even address.

Fact: Energy resistance reduces damage of a particular energy type.
Corrolary: Cold resistance reduces cold damge.
Fact: Cold resistance reduces nonlethal damage related to exposure in cold environments.
Possible conclusion 1: As a special rule, certain types of energy resistance can reduce untyped nonlethal damge related to exposure to certain thematically appropriate environments.
Possible conclusion 2: Nonlethal damage related to exposure to cold environments is cold damage.

The passage in Frostburn doesn't specify one way or the other, and the DMG doesn't mention energy resistance, so this is probably up to DM interpretation.

(It's a little surprising that this bit of inductive reasoning continues to elude you, even after I explained it, especially considering the logical leap involved in your induction of the maximum temperature of [Cold] spells.  Maybe it really is true that an optimizer's interpretation of the rules is the one that yields the most plusses in the current situation.)

2. RAW the nonlethal damage is not typed as Energy: [Cold] Damage. (I've been using [] markers to denote type or not btw).
Which is not only completely unnecessary, but also wrong.  The brackets mark spell descriptors.  Damage types like fire and cold are used like normal words in a sentence-- which doesn't exactly help your case that cold environments don't deal cold damage.

If were go with the idea the nonlethal damage from cold is in fact [Cold] Damage then wearing a scarf (or w/e) is capable of preventing the 1d6 cold & 1d4 nonlethal damage of the Unearthly Cold range. But that is in direct contradiction of the rules. Frostburn says protection from cold has nothing to do with protection or resistance to the energy type [Cold]. [Cold] resistance blocks the nonlethal damage as noted (specific) but other effects that blocks the nonlethal damage cannot block [Cold] damage because they were never blocking [Cold] damage to begin with (general).
Now you're the one who needs remedial reading comprehension classes.  That passage specifies that the cold protection rules refer specifically to resisting environmental conditions.  Notice that someone with cold resistance 5 (or just Endure Elements) just has to put on a cold weather outfit to completely ignore Unearthly Cold (base protection 3 with a +1 modifier).  This is in contrast to the general rule that attacks deal damage.

Now you're talking mass and shape dynamics. Those are certainly out of my league and clearly seems out of yours.
I only brought it up because you mentioned the melting temperature of gold, but if you'd prefer to retreat to the simpler realm of game mechanics, I'd be happy to oblige you.  (And I did well enough in my materials science classes in university and placed out of all the chemistry I needed, so I doubt it'd be out of my league if I actually did sit down and do some research on it, but that doesn't sound like as much fun as debating the minutiae of D&D rules.)

Speaking of rules, I have a reasonable estimate of how much water an instantaneous [Cold] effect might be able to freeze, given an arbitrarily large body of water.

Since it's not a creature or an effect, water could be modeled using the rules for objects (since just about everything in D&D is either a creature, an object, or an effect).  We don't have hardness and HP for water, but we do have it for a reasonable approximation, ice: 0 hardness, 3HP/inch.  For large objects (like walls), depleting its HP breaches a 5' section.  So, we can consider a 5' square of water to have 180 HP.  Normally, cold damage is divided by 4 before applying it to an object, but two rules work in our favor here:  Attacks always do at least 1 damage, and the DM may double damage that he feels is particularly effective against an object.  Worst case, Ray of Frost deals floor(1d3/4, 1), or 1, damage to a pool of water.  Whether you calculate this as a 5'x5'/.3" sheet or 1/180 of a 5' cube is irrelevant; it comes to 0.69(4) cubic feet-- about a 10.6" cube or 6.6" sphere, probably enough for several handfuls and big enough to avoid melting for hours in most climates.  Even if the DM decides you only freeze 1/4 of that for doing a partial HP of damage, it's still a minimum of a 6.7" cube or 4" sphere, still a handful for most reasonable hands.  This is really good news for our OP, if his DM uses it, since Pathfinder casters get cantrips at will.

But really, the whole thing is in the realm of DM interpretation because there aren't any explicit rules, and I hope for your characters' sake that this isn't how you argue with your DM.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 09:26:27 PM by CrimsonDeath »

McPoyo

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2011, 11:11:39 PM »
Simplest argument: a level 0 spell, ray of frost, is the weakest cold spell and specifically mentions creating ice. Start from that premise instead of the one needlessly involving real world science.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

wotmaniac

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2011, 11:22:37 PM »
Simplest argument: a level 0 spell, ray of frost, is the weakest cold spell and specifically mentions creating ice. Start from that premise instead of the one needlessly involving real world science.
Oh, goddamn it -- why do you have to go and inject rational thought it to this?  I just put the popcorn on to cook.
:)

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
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More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2011, 11:25:39 PM »
Simplest argument: a level 0 spell, ray of frost, is the weakest cold spell and specifically mentions creating ice. Start from that premise instead of the one needlessly involving real world science.
Oh, goddamn it -- why do you have to go and inject rational thought it to this?  I just put the popcorn on to cook.
:)
Hand it over.
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2011, 12:10:17 AM »
Simplest argument: a level 0 spell, ray of frost, is the weakest cold spell and specifically mentions creating ice. Start from that premise instead of the one needlessly involving real world science.

Doesn't necessarily prove anything, since weaker spells are sometimes capable of things that stronger spells can't do.


Not that I see why there's an argument here.  You make iceballs in your downtime, and carry around a blue ice cooler full of them, since it's stupid to waste actions mid-combat on ray of frost or whatever.
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CrimsonDeath

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2011, 02:23:41 AM »
Simplest argument: a level 0 spell, ray of frost, is the weakest cold spell and specifically mentions creating ice. Start from that premise instead of the one needlessly involving real world science.

Doesn't necessarily prove anything, since weaker spells are sometimes capable of things that stronger spells can't do.


Not that I see why there's an argument here.  You make iceballs in your downtime, and carry around a blue ice cooler full of them, since it's stupid to waste actions mid-combat on ray of frost or whatever.
I like this idea personally.

Oh, and to make it even better, grind the ice up into tiny pieces.  Then, after a hard day of adventuring, add Prestidigitation for some flavor, and you have snowcones!
« Last Edit: April 08, 2011, 07:28:27 AM by CrimsonDeath »

SorO_Lost

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2011, 01:55:16 PM »
And what this right here says is you're an asshole.  I can be polite as you can, so if you want to sprinkle ad hominem attacks in with actual legitimate attempts at argument, I can do that too.
Thanks.

Which has nothing to do with fire damage.  You can take fire damage from a Heat Metal spell, which lacks fuel and may lack oxygen.  Not that all fire damage explicitly melts things either, if you must stick to your analogy.
I am. [Fire] Damage is heat related with a minimum temperature of 211 degrees which doesn't light really anything on fire and yes, doesn't melt much either. You're the one trying to say the title "fire" is related to fire and then use that as a counter augment. It is very much like saying how Grease is flammable cus grease is, Nailed to the Sky requires a hammer and nails, spiders ignore Web or whatever use can be made up by ignoring rules. The biggest clue you should have picked up on was being submerged in lava deals [Fire] Damage. Lava (normally) isn't on fire and stuff buried in it are too smothered to light. It's heat damage plain and simple.

This is just a waste of everybody's time.
Agreed. I should have pulled Sandstorm's usage of Nonlethal, Lethal, and Fire and just demanded an explanation of why it used three different types of damage instead of the element and the nonlethal element and watched you pass it off as a writer's mistake giving me an excuse to ignore you.

Maybe it really is true that an optimizer's interpretation of the rules is the one that yields the most plusses in the current situation.
I always aim for the most sense. If a spell dealing [Cold] Damage was in fact measured to say it was 98.6 degrees then how exactly could cold weather deal it do you? [Cold] is cold, [Fire] is hot. The only mentioned scale of how hot/cold is presented in Sandstorm & Frostburn. Both the entries on protection from X and hot side's useage of three damage types all agree that 39 or 121 degrees isn't far enough into either range to deal the respected types of damage.

You wish you argue it for whatever reasons and ignore that. You're an idiot for trying to say fire is the result of heating things rather than a possible result. It's like saying since water melted, it's on fire. Also since Earth mostly is melted water this is hell.
...Hey you may have had something there.  :drums

Speaking of rules, I have a reasonable estimate of how much water an instantaneous [Cold] effect might be able to freeze, given an arbitrarily large body of water. Even if the DM decides you only freeze 1/4 of that for doing a partial HP of damage, it's still a minimum of a 6.7" cube or 4" sphere, still a handful for most reasonable hands.  This is really good news for our OP, if his DM uses it, since Pathfinder casters get cantrips at will. But really, the whole thing is in the realm of DM interpretation because there aren't any explicit rules, and I hope for your characters' sake that this isn't how you argue with your DM.
Now that was useful. And if your DM wants to be a dick, berfore things were bogged down, a number of ways to produce or even buy ice was presented. Heck if you are playing in Eberron I'd suspect they have ice machines to go along with their magnet trains & flying ships.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2011, 03:41:40 PM »
Agreed. I should have pulled Sandstorm's usage of Nonlethal, Lethal, and Fire and just demanded an explanation of why it used three different types of damage instead of the element and the nonlethal element and watched you pass it off as a writer's mistake giving me an excuse to ignore you.
Damage can be both nonlethal and cold or fire or electricity or whatever.

Unless you're going to argue that energy resistance doesn't work in a mageduel, or againt oneiromancy, or a rogue with a nonlethal shocking sap, or for a troll taking electricity damage.

There's also the issue of area spells throw around dice of [cold] and dice of [fire] damage.
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CrimsonDeath

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2011, 04:18:37 PM »
I am. [Fire] Damage is heat related with a minimum temperature of 211 degrees which doesn't light really anything on fire and yes, doesn't melt much either. You're the one trying to say the title "fire" is related to fire and then use that as a counter augment.
I'm not totally sure you really understood what I was getting at, but I think we may be on the same page here, so there's not much point in arguing.

I should have pulled Sandstorm's usage of Nonlethal, Lethal, and Fire and just demanded an explanation of why it used three different types of damage instead of the element and the nonlethal element and watched you pass it off as a writer's mistake giving me an excuse to ignore you.
Actually, I almost brought that one up myself.  Interestingly, fire resistance offers no protection against environmental heat dangers until you reach Burning Heat, which is essentially the Fire Dominant planar trait (and inflicts no nonlethal damage).  I decided against it because it didn't really contribute to the cold weather debate one way or the other.

Maybe it really is true that an optimizer's interpretation of the rules is the one that yields the most plusses in the current situation.
I always aim for the most sense. If a spell dealing [Cold] Damage was in fact measured to say it was 98.6 degrees then how exactly could cold weather deal it do you? [Cold] is cold, [Fire] is hot. The only mentioned scale of how hot/cold is presented in Sandstorm & Frostburn. Both the entries on protection from X and hot side's useage of three damage types all agree that 39 or 121 degrees isn't far enough into either range to deal the respected types of damage.
I haven't seen thermometers in any equipment list, but this is all surprisingly reasonable.

You wish you argue it for whatever reasons and ignore that. You're an idiot for trying to say fire is the result of heating things rather than a possible result. It's like saying since water melted, it's on fire. Also since Earth mostly is melted water this is hell.
...Hey you may have had something there.  :drums
Putting words on my mouth, on the other hand, is kind of cheap.  Yes, I got a little fixated on catching fire early on, but I don't recall saying it was the only possible cause or result of fire damage, and even if I did, I already conceded the point anyway.  (Or if I didn't, I do now.)

Speaking of rules, I have a reasonable estimate of how much water an instantaneous [Cold] effect might be able to freeze, given an arbitrarily large body of water. Even if the DM decides you only freeze 1/4 of that for doing a partial HP of damage, it's still a minimum of a 6.7" cube or 4" sphere, still a handful for most reasonable hands.  This is really good news for our OP, if his DM uses it, since Pathfinder casters get cantrips at will. But really, the whole thing is in the realm of DM interpretation because there aren't any explicit rules, and I hope for your characters' sake that this isn't how you argue with your DM.
Now that was useful. And if your DM wants to be a dick, berfore things were bogged down, a number of ways to produce or even buy ice was presented. Heck if you are playing in Eberron I'd suspect they have ice machines to go along with their magnet trains & flying ships.
Thanks.  And yeah, you can buy ice, but what's the point when you can make your own for free?  Unless you want to spend a couple of days casting Flesh to Salt on cows to break the economy.  Or would pigs be cheaper?

SorO_Lost

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2011, 05:00:57 PM »
Agreed. I should have pulled Sandstorm's usage of Nonlethal, Lethal, and Fire and just demanded an explanation of why it used three different types of damage instead of the element and the nonlethal element and watched you pass it off as a writer's mistake giving me an excuse to ignore you.
Damage can be both nonlethal and cold or fire or electricity or whatever.

Unless you're going to argue that energy resistance doesn't work in a mageduel, or againt oneiromancy, or a rogue with a nonlethal shocking sap, or for a troll taking electricity damage.

There's also the issue of area spells throw around dice of [cold] and dice of [fire] damage.
No that's not it at all. The remarkes of protection form cold are the rules entry called protection from cold and it has anothing to do with the spell called Protection From Energy. Crimson was trying to follow up saying the nonlethal damage dealt to you via weather was in fact [Cold] based since it was from a cold source. Makes a lot of sense really. It just falls short of how the rules handle it.

Here is a much lass flame filled summery for you.
[spoiler]It's simply stated as nonlethal damage rather than typed. [Cold] & cold are sort of ambiguous but typed nonlethal damage is written as "nonlethal X damage" can be used to reach the intent of the rule passage. This is reinforced in Sandstorm where hot weather can deal Nonlethal, Lethal, and [Fire]. If the nonlethal damage dealt by weather were typed, why the expressed usage of Lethal and [Fire]? Further protection from cold/heat grants 0 energy resistance making it a specific write also planting [Cold] Resistance's interaction with weather damage on par with say Slow's interaction with Haste. Finally as the last kick in the teeth, it is explicated written into the rules that 10 points of fire damage melts 1 cubic foot of ice ([Fire] is hot), while there is no [Cold] freezes x amount in the rules it certainly can be gleamed from that passage it should.

Core of it all was is [Cold] cold enough to freeze water? I say yes because for one thing [Cold] Damage doesn't show up on damage tables until it's -50 outside meaning [Cold] is certainly cold. Opposed side says no for a variety of reasons. They attack the concept stating melting & fire are the same and so unless noted like [Fire]'s catching on fire effect [Cold] can't freeze. They attack the untyped nonlethal damage and type it so they can say [Cold] shows up in the 40 degree range. Even in an area of text they concede to the idea they pull out subjects such as Hardness & Thickness to handle freezing dynamics rather than just using the melting formula in the very chapter I've been pulling rules from. Two of those methods highlight lack of knowledge and the last battles against the rules and absolutely is against intent.[/spoiler]

Note: Crimson just posted, not going to bother putting my reply to it in this post.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]