Author Topic: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5  (Read 17562 times)

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kadeity

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COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« on: April 04, 2011, 06:15:24 AM »
Right now, im playing a level 4 Oracle with the Waves mystery, and the DM houseruled to allow me to use the Druid spell list instead of the Cleric's spell list. Ive been using "numbing sphere" from the spell compendium, which does 1d6 cold damage and 1d4 dex damage, (reflex negates both) and moves 30ft per round when you use a move action to move it. I selected the "freezing spells" revelation that says whenever an enemy fails a save against a spell that deals cold damage, it is "slowed" as the spell for one round. I have the "energy substitution" feat and next level im selecting the spell "thunderhead" which lets you control this cloud which does 1 point of electricity damage every round (lasts round / level, ref negates), so ill make this cold damage, and it will become a 1st level "slow cloud". Right now im using the Alternate favored class feature for a Human oracle that gives him an extra spell known per level (must be one level lower than the highest you can cast), and i traded out the human racial bonus skill points for the alternate racial trait that gives them 1/2 their level as a bonus to survival. Combine that with the fact that Oracles have d8 hd and medium attack bonus, and ive got a pretty decent wilderness caster.

I like the character A LOT, and i want to remake it for another game, but i cant get that DM to houserule it the same way, so im thinking ill play a sorcerer?
I want to do battlefield control, cold damage, and ability damage. Sorcerers get Numbing Sphere, and Shivering Touch, which are both great options for DEX damage. Ive looked at the Uttercold Assault Necromancer, but i dont really want to summon undead.

-Battle Sorcerer (UA, p 56): d8 hitdice, medium BAB, replace bluff skill with intimidate on list of class skills. Proficient with light armor and one light or one-handed melee weapon. Reduced spells per day and spells known. (One fewer each level to a minimum of one). I may not do this: the spells may not be worth losing.
- If i choose the Alternate Favored Class for Human Sorcerers from the pathfinder "Advanced Players Guide" ill get +1 spell known per level (must be one level lower than the highest you can cast), which will help mitigate that, though it doesnt help with having fewer spells per day.
- the only worry with this is that i was considering a single level dip in oracle to get the "freezing spells" mystery, since it works on all spells not just oracle spells. This would delay my spellcasting EVEN FURTHER, but all the cold spells i cast, that have a save, would cause the slow effect.

The pathfinder sorcerer has a few bloodlines i can choose from for this.
-If i choose the "elemental bloodline" for water, i can cast any energy damage spell as a cold spell.
-If i choose the "boreal bloodline" from the advanced players guide, i can get the frost property earlier, and a higher dc on cold saves, but i dont like the first two bonus spells much.
-If i choose the "draconic bloodline" for silver or white i get claws, and a breath weapon eventually, and +1 cold damage per die rolled, but it doesnt fit theme and the bonus spells are lame. Still, it works with the Dragon Disciple PRC, which is GREAT for a battle sorcerer.

-The "flash frost" (phb2) metamagic feat lets me ice the area (dc10 balance or prone for 1 round) of my spells for +1 level spellslot, and adds +2 cold damage per spell level to things in its area, but im not sure how good that is really. There arent many low level AOE's, but i think this may work on cones also? it says "cold descriptor spell that effects an area".

-whats a good cold spell for Arcane thesis(phb2)?

ILM

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2011, 07:36:30 AM »
Do you have access to Frostburn? The book was basically written for you.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2011, 08:25:34 AM »
Blue ice armor is probably a good item for you.  Snowcasting as well, since if you're going to have an ice theme, you should have it apply to all your spells.
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kadeity

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2011, 01:45:55 PM »
The_Mad_Linguist :
Snowcasting requires you have snow on hand. There isnt a "Create snow" spell, so you could only use it whenever a spell had just specifically created some. When im higher level, and can cast weather effecting spells, that will be more useful, but right now i cant use it really.

ILM:
Yes, both of the ability damage spells i mentioned are from it.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2011, 03:04:06 PM »
The_Mad_Linguist :
Snowcasting requires you have snow on hand. There isnt a "Create snow" spell, so you could only use it whenever a spell had just specifically created some. When im higher level, and can cast weather effecting spells, that will be more useful, but right now i cant use it really.

It's either snow or ice. 

Blue ice is constantly below the freezing point of water.  Make a blue ice cube tray.

Or just take eschew material components.
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ILM

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2011, 03:21:42 PM »
-whats a good cold spell for Arcane thesis(phb2)?
I kind of like Cone of Cold. Sure, it's a direct damage spell with all the usual weaknesses, but it synergizes rather well with metamagic feats. On the other hand, you could pick the Snowcasting feat in FB and all your spells would be [cold] (and Energy substitute them so they actually do cold damage). If you really want the fluff to go with it, you can take Spell Thematics in PGtF.

Since you want to be on the blasty side with battlefield control goodness, Wizard or Sorcerer look good. Now mind you I know nothing about PF, so here's my suggestion: Sorc 6/ Incantatrix 10/ XX 4 (Frost Mage would be nice for flavour; it's not like you'd lose anything compared to 4 extra Sorcerer levels). Go to town with metamagic feats, make sure you abuse Arcane Spellsurge and Arcane Fusion.

The flash frost feat does work like you mentioned and it's pretty good. With Cold Spell Specialization and some weather control, you're looking at some decent extra damage, especially when you start Twinning and Repeating those spells.

I'd skip Battle Sorc but keep the variant that gives you an extra spell known per level. Do you lose anything in exchange?

SorO_Lost

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2011, 06:34:18 PM »
The_Mad_Linguist :
Snowcasting requires you have snow on hand. There isnt a "Create snow" spell, so you could only use it whenever a spell had just specifically created some. When im higher level, and can cast weather effecting spells, that will be more useful, but right now i cant use it really.

It's either snow or ice. 

Blue ice is constantly below the freezing point of water.  Make a blue ice cube tray.

Or just take eschew material components.
Or shoot any of your cold spells at water. Like when it's raining. Also for a good 3 months out of 12 you can scoop it off the ground. And finally, later on it's always winter around you so problem solved.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

kadeity

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2011, 04:03:24 PM »
So...Does eschew material components actually work with snowcasting?
I made a list of ways to boost my caster level, anyone know of any other easy ways?
Also wondering what some good choices are for Arcane Thesis/ Sculpt spell.

Snowcasting:(frostburn) +1 caster level cold spells, add cold descriptor to any spell
Cold Focus:(frostburn) +1 caster level cold spells
Greater Cold Focus:(frostburn) +1 caster level cold spells
Arcane Thesis: (PHB2) +2 caster level with one spell (cheaper metamagic too)
Winters Blast: (complete Mage) +1 caster level to cold spells

Circumstantial but:
Frozen Magic: (frostburn) +1/+2 caster level to cold spells in cold weather
Storm Magic: (frostburn) +1 caster level to spells cast in a storm

Littha

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2011, 05:37:16 PM »
Note that cold focus and greater cold focus only add to save DCs not caster level.

Also if you are blasting using cold you NEED to take Cold Spell Specialisation from frostburn. +1 damage for each dice (level 11 wizard deals 11d6+11 damage with cone of cold). It only works below 40 degrees F (4 or 5 degrees C) but that should be fairly achieveable as a caster. you get twice the bonus at -20F (-29C) but that is harder to get to.

Also look into winterhaunt of iborighu, constant piercing cold is amazing and +2 or 3d6 damage to all your spells is a noticable bump.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 05:43:45 PM by Littha »

SorO_Lost

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2011, 06:36:27 PM »
So...Does eschew material components actually work with snowcasting?
Snow or Ice is <1gp in cost isn't it? (yes)

Read here: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9223.0
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

wotmaniac

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2011, 06:45:07 PM »
So...Does eschew material components actually work with snowcasting?
RAW?  yes (as pointed out by Soro).
RAI?  I have some serious doubts. .....  :sherlock

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2011, 07:47:51 PM »
So...Does eschew material components actually work with snowcasting?
RAW?  yes (as pointed out by Soro).
RAI?  I have some serious doubts. .....  :sherlock
In either case you can just carry around a blue ice cooler.  Fill it with water - blue ice never melts, and constantly frost over, so it's an easy way of making normal ice.
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ILM

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2011, 08:21:47 PM »
So...Does eschew material components actually work with snowcasting?
I made a list of ways to boost my caster level, anyone know of any other easy ways?
Also wondering what some good choices are for Arcane Thesis/ Sculpt spell.

Snowcasting:(frostburn) +1 caster level cold spells, add cold descriptor to any spell
Cold Focus:(frostburn) +1 caster level cold spells
Greater Cold Focus:(frostburn) +1 caster level cold spells
Arcane Thesis: (PHB2) +2 caster level with one spell (cheaper metamagic too)
Winters Blast: (complete Mage) +1 caster level to cold spells

Circumstantial but:
Frozen Magic: (frostburn) +1/+2 caster level to cold spells in cold weather
Storm Magic: (frostburn) +1 caster level to spells cast in a storm
+1 Ring of Arcane Might (MIC)
+1 Orange Ioun Stone (PHB)
+1 Craft Magic Tattoo (SpC) (costly if you do it every day though)
+1 Spellgifted trait (to one school iirc)
+1 to one spell/level from Spell Thematics feat (PGtF)
Then there's Circle Magic abuse...

SorO_Lost

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2011, 11:24:58 PM »
So...Does eschew material components actually work with snowcasting?
RAW?  yes (as pointed out by Soro).
RAI?  I have some serious doubts. .....  :sherlock
I feel like we've gone over this before so let's nail the horse and beat the coffin.

1.
Back in the good ole days ice was gathered during the winter via rivers/ponds and stored in various ways. For instance many farmers buried a huge pile under hey in their barn (still practiced today by the Amish). Sure ice in the middle of summer has some trade value but would you (you you, not spellcaster you) trade a living breathing goat for a handful of ice? How about fifty chickens? Because that is the value of a single gold coin.

2.
Quote from: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rayOfFrost.htm
A ray of freezing air and ice projects from your pointing finger.
Fast fact. Ice doesn't deal cold damage. In fact, weather wise you don't even take cold damage for standing outside naked until it's -50 outside. And even then it's once per 10 minutes. "Cold Damage" is a heck of a lot colder then what it would take to freeze a cup of water.

3.
Control Temperature(FB) and it's divine counterpart Cold Snap(FB) cast via rune/divine staff creating wintry conditions in the middle of a desert. Note due to Cold Snap's +1/die augmentation to damage and the fact cold weather simultaneously powers Frozen Magic & Cold Spell Specialization there is zero logic to thinking these spells would never be used. You could throw the PCs in the middle of the elemental plane of fire with thousands of would be pissed of fire elementals and I'd just remark Ocular-Spell-shoot-your-self-in-the-leg as the counter.

4.
In either case you can just carry around a blue ice cooler.  Fill it with water - blue ice never melts, and constantly frost over, so it's an easy way of making normal ice.

Ice/Snow isn't rare. It's cheaper than livestock too.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 11:33:11 PM by SorO_Lost »
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2011, 12:08:24 AM »
2.
Quote from: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rayOfFrost.htm
A ray of freezing air and ice projects from your pointing finger.
Fast fact. Ice doesn't deal cold damage. In fact, weather wise you don't even take cold damage for standing outside naked until it's -50 outside. And even then it's once per 10 minutes. "Cold Damage" is a heck of a lot colder then what it would take to freeze a cup of water.
That's not exactly the best argument - fireball deals a hell of a lot more damage than hot weather, but it doesn't set fires.

Also, you start taking damage below 40 degrees Fahrenheit while wearing normal clothing.  It's nonlethal cold damage, but it's still cold damage.
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Solo

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2011, 12:09:31 AM »
Quote
That's not exactly the best argument - fireball deals a hell of a lot more damage than hot weather, but it doesn't set fires.
What?

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

kadeity

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2011, 01:35:50 AM »
It's either snow or ice.  
Blue ice is constantly below the freezing point of water.  Make a blue ice cube tray.
Or just take eschew material components.

It says  on page 80 of frostburn in the blue ice description that an entire room lined with it would only be at "about" freezing, and that goblets made of it only keep their liquids "chilled".
 Im not sure if this is a solid enough basis for my DM to let me to use it to Create Ice.
Freeze powder (frostburn p78) is worth 100gp per dose, and all it does is create a 1ft ball of ice, or coat a 10ft square area with ice, if it was already wet.


General Question: whats the best low level area damage spell to use Arcane Thesis + Sculpt Spell / Flash Frost on?
Would Burning hands be it? It maxes out at 5d4 though, and my main interest is extra cold damage + putting ice on the ground for snowcasting.

Also if i extend a Flash frost spell, does the ice stay an extra round?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 02:37:29 AM by kadeity »

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2011, 04:45:20 AM »
It's either snow or ice.  
Blue ice is constantly below the freezing point of water.  Make a blue ice cube tray.
Or just take eschew material components.

It says  on page 80 of frostburn in the blue ice description that an entire room lined with it would only be at "about" freezing, and that goblets made of it only keep their liquids "chilled".
It also says that blue ice armor is constantly coated in a layer of frost.  So it's either inconsistent, or it's very close to 0C, and takes a while to freeze a liquid that's in contact with air.  You could also just throw in an ounce or so of rimefire/stygian ice, which is even colder than blue ice.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 04:49:56 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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ILM

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2011, 08:21:06 AM »
General Question: whats the best low level area damage spell to use Arcane Thesis + Sculpt Spell / Flash Frost on?
Would Burning hands be it? It maxes out at 5d4 though, and my main interest is extra cold damage + putting ice on the ground for snowcasting.
Scorching Ray? Level 2, decent cap damage (12d6 - I believe there's a feat in a Dragonlance book that lets you raise the cap) so a good candidate for metamagic stacking. Also, no saving throw (but a ranged touch attack, of course).
I keep mentioning damage spells... I'm sure there's a battlefield control spell somewhere you could use to ruin somebody's life with by stacking on a ton of metamagic feats.

edit: sorry, you said area damage spells. Then I stand by my Cone of Cold.
editedit: although you could Chain the Scorching Ray, couldn't you? Not strictly speaking area damage, but still multi-target.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 08:24:29 AM by ILM »

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Re: COLD THEMED CASTER rebuild Advice: pathfinder / 3.5
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2011, 11:55:00 AM »
I like Freezing Breath or whatever that 2nd level spell from SpC is called.  But, it's more for its debuffing than for its damage.  Blast of Flame is like a precursor to CoC, and doesn't trigger SR.