Character (likely melee cleric) Help!

[Amoren]

Alright, so.  I'm currently playing an Invisible Blade rogue in a Ravenloft setting with a party consisting of a full progression fighter (with three blessings of Ravenloft), a fallen paladin (either seeking redemption or becoming a black guard), an eldritch glaive focused warlock (he's got cleave!), and a crescent moon ninja monk...  I made my character thinking that the warlock's player was going to use a divine caster (like he usually does) and the ninja was going to be a nightmare spinner wizard.

So, this party has problems.  It has no dedicated spell casters.  No buffers.  Is FOUR melee (five, technically with the warlock being at 10ft), with two of them squishy.  Because of these problems, and the fact that me and the Monk are fulfilling the exact same combat role, I thought it'd be best if I create a different character and the DM allowed it, with the suggestion of using a divine spell caster to help support.

That being said, I don't exactly dream of being a pure support character.  I mean, I could try it, but I don't think I'd find it very fun.  I also prefer melee characters to ranged, but that's sheer preference...  So I thought I'd go with a melee cleric (over druid, since the player who played the warlock already played two different druids in this campaign and its getting kind of old), using Divine Metamagic Persist to buff up the party and then smacking stuff over the head and using his spells for support the rest of the day.

So I was looking for advice and help to this end.  The character will be 8th level with WPL gold (most likely getting a +1 Animate Shield and probably using a Greatsword).  I've already done some research and I thought about going with Bone Knight, although I'm not sure how the loss of that caster level is going to hurt me.  The problem is that I want to get into Bone Knight sooner, and all the cleric prestige classes that have Ride as a class skill lose a caster level for the first few levels except for Seeker of the Misty Isle (requires elf...) or prestige paladin, which I don't think my DM will allow.  So is there any way to get ride as a cleric class skill other than these?

Secondly, what spells should I focus on persisting?  I do want to make this guy good at melee, but I also want to support my party with all day buffs and not just out shine the fighter and paladin (...which I'm worried I'm going to be anyway).

Or, alternatively, what sort of character/classes do you think would better mesh with this party (rules are base classes from PHB I only, with a few exceptions from the DM, and base races as well).  I know something ranged would be better, but I just can't get into archery, maybe blasting but I doubt Cleric has good blasting spells, and even if they do it feels like such a waste.  Also, if its a Druid, it'll have to be something that isn't a Mystic Theurge or focus on its animal companion.  Also, please note, this will be the first time I've actually played a divine caster in DnD 3.5, I had a brief stint with a Wizard/Swiftblade (which didn't go over well) so I'm quite the newbie and used to playing rogues (I know, the shock of going from a tier four to a tier one will likely give me whiplash!).

[ninjarabbit]

Truthfully I think a bard would be good for this party. Even a simple bard8 will get you inspire courage +2 and some nice buffs like haste and alter self and debuffs like glitterdust. Plus it can still be rogue-like so you won't be completely out of your comfort zone.

[Amoren]

Truthfully I think a bard would be good for this party. Even a simple bard8 will get you inspire courage +2 and some nice buffs like haste and alter self and debuffs like glitterdust. Plus it can still be rogue-like so you won't be completely out of your comfort zone.

I thought about Bard but dismissed it, and this is probably going to sound really stupid, because I didn't find the idea of sitting around and singing in combat all that exciting (or buffing, or whatever).  With the cleric idea I got all the buffing out of the way in the morning and got to hit stuff from then on.

Still, I guess I could do some research into bards and see if my initial hesitation is unfounded...  If anything a...  Whatever that class from Complete Adventurer might be fun.  Since that would require going rogue, I would gain trap finding and still be capable of scouting and dealing with traps for the party!

[Unbeliever]

Bards can buff w/ just a single standard action or even just a swift action (Song of the White Raven, though you sacrifice some slight amount of power for it).  That being said, the "role" of such a character is kind of as the buffer, though they can be quite the melee or archer terror as well, depending on how you build them.

Given that you're playing Ravenloft, I can see a cleric being quite useful.  Namely for condition removal.  You're going to be encountering, I'd expect, several things that do nasty things to you and your party.  Bards have a little bit of spellcasting and some healing, so they could fill that niche, but cleric types are of course the ones that shine at it. 

Big question, does this party more or less work for the game your DM is running? 

If the answer is yes, then you don't have to worry about optimizing too much.  Honestly, a DMM (persist) melee cleric might even be too much, since you'll potentially be out-melee'ing the melee'ers, depending on how optimized their builds are.  Here are my actual suggestions: 

• I like Bone Knight.  I think it's sufficiently cool that losing the caster level is worth it.  Plus, I think it will help keep you more in line w/ the power level of your group.  Perhaps go DMM(persist) to make yourself powerful enough in melee to be credible, and then focus on party-boosting buffs (which also affect you).  Also, since you can easily get yourself some decent undead minions, even in those rounds where you are buffing -- which I acknowledge can be kinda boring -- you still get to make attack roles.  Remember, though, that all of these concepts are here to do some healing and condition removal, so that will be a little bit of your responsibility.  I personally don't love healers or buffers, but I do think that paying attention that way keeps you tactically engaged.
• Ranged Cleric.  Cleric or Archivist archer would be my first bet.  You can search on BG and find many good builds for them, they're pretty awesome.  You could also go for a blaster cleric.  They have sufficient blasting, especially w/ the right domains, to make it work.  Although I would expect the Warlock to at least be capable of halfway decent blasting if needs be.

Why doesn't your DM like Prestige Paladins?  They're hardly broken.  My personal bet might be the second, if only b/c the first might step too much on the paladin player's toes.  Although it depends whether he's going for redemption or not. 

If you post more details about your party's builds, and kind of the level of power you're aiming for (I'm sensing you don't want to outshine them), I or someone else on this thread can probably point you to more specific build help and let you know what spells you should or shouldn't persist. 

[Amoren]

Alright, well.  I don't know much about the fighter beyond the fact that she's pretty darn awesome at what she does (and has a reputation amongst the party for being incredibly bad ass, which has got us stepping light footed since now if we annoy her she has to make a will save to not attack us...).  Build wise I'm not sure what she has beyond Cleave (which she gets a lot of use out of), a good strength score and normal mental stats.  She has over 100 HP now, and is using a large shocking greataxe as her weapon.  Her current blessings give her 5 damage reduction to piercing, and a tail attack.  I believe she does have power attack, but she uses it sparingly.

The Warlock I know less about, except that he spent most of his starting WPL gold on an item which increased his Eldritch Blast damage.  I think his Glaive does 8d6 (?) damage at level 8, or something else ridiculously high.  He also took Cleave, and typically wipes out minions due to his high damage, multiple attacks per round, reach, touch attacks almost always hitting, and did I mention cleave?  The player behind this character is the most likely to be optimized in our party, as seen when his first character in the group was a Dragonwrought Kobold Pragnostic Disciple Sorcerer Druid Arcane Theurge/Heriophant, and intending to be classified as a True Dragon for more kobold cheese.  Did I mention his animal companion was a flesh raker?  As for this character, I know he carries a wand of lesser restoration, and is going the diabolic route since his Master is a Pit Fiend that roasted a previous character in our group (don't ask, fastest case of karmic death I've ever seen!).

The (Ex) paladin isn't really that optimized, even for a paladin, although the DM allowed her to have a Unicorn for a special mount.  I initially helped create her character with the mind set of Mounted Combat, but its kind of fallen by the way side and I don't know what build she's going for.  Like our Fighter, she's more in it for the roleplay, but she's still a nice meat shield even if she doesn't have the fighters level of damage out put.

The monk...  I have no clue about besides what prestige class he's going for.  But he's probably going to be the least optimized in our party without a doubt.  Why?  Because his last character was a wizard with a casting level of 5 (?) at level 8.  Intending to go Effigy Master and Alchemist Savant, I believe.  He's also notorious for having one of his characters died in the same session it was introduced (by us, detect magic to see him through hide and a critical hit scorching ray kind of did him in).  But beyond this, I think the DM is helping him out with his character this time, so I expect he'll be at least half way decent at his role as a sneak attack damager and stealther.

And yes, while I don't mind being a little better in some respects (for example, I'm not likely going to be anywhere near the hit dice pool that the fighter is), or just slightly better, I don't want to make the other players feel like they're useless or overly outshined.  I would like to out do the optimizer for once, but I'm not going to let petty vengeance cloud my judgment (YES I AM!  YES I AM!  GLORY TO HEXTO- *Punch*).  This is why I wanted my main focus to be on buffing the party so that I can make them better, and after that I would buff myself up. 

I suppose I could go a ranged build, that WOULD prevent me from out doing the meleers or anyone else (since there are no ranged for me to compete with!).  However, I'm rather partial to melee, I guess its just because stabbing something is so much more satisfying.  Still, I can try out a ranged/archery build since it would work better with the group and cause less trouble.  Worst comes to worse I ask my DM if I can change my character a tad (something he's allowed in the past) and switch it to melee...  I don't know much beyond how to build one besides getting Zen Archery and stacking buffs (I would have to abandoned my Persistant Ice Axe/Greater Magic Weapon or Holy Sword idea though, darn!).

Also of note, one of my biggest concerns with delaying caster levels was because I wanted to get the Atonement spell to restore our paladin to paladinhood.  And since it's a 5th level spell...

[Solo]

I would like to out do the optimizer for once, but I'm not going to let petty vengeance cloud my judgment (YES I AM!  YES I AM!  GLORY TO HEXTO- *Punch*).

Be a nice buffer until the fighter fails a will save to attack the party, whereupon it is time for a curb stomp battle.

[Rejakor]

Be a melee cleric.

People wank on about clerics but I have yet to see a melee cleric shine before like 12th.  If you optimize as much as you are capable of, as long as you retain group-buffs, condition-removal, and some measure of healing (even if it's just wands of lesser vigor - although, having 1 or 2 high-level healing spells prepared can help in some fights), you will be probably a touch less competent than the warlock/fighter at melee combat.  Having to retain group buffs and condition removal spells in your spell slots will make you slightly worse at melee combat, and to be honest, without stupid cheese, a level 8 cleric can only persist what, 2-3 spells?  That's not that amazing.  Make one of those spells at least Recitation or something else group buffy, don't be afraid to slap on ten minute per level spells if you feel combat is coming on (bull's strength, bear's endurance is what i'm thinking of here but there's more) and make sure to have at least ONE useful melee'er feat combo.  And no, i'm not talking about weapon focus.

Since cleave seems to be useful, i'd take power attack, cleave, and when BAB allows, shock trooper/leap attack.

Otherwise, it's ravenlol, so you might want to invest in Greater Turning.  This is hilarious because it means you want to save your turn attempts to murder undead and simultaneously use them persist spells but hey resource management is fun right kids.  Don't forget that holy symbol dealy that gives you extra turn attempts and ask your DM about nightsticks.

So at the end of it, you buff the group, and have a group buff aura on all day (Recitation, whatever else), you can nuke undead right in their faces, you melee like a meleer, you remove conditions, and you still look like a cleric, so it's all alright.

As a suggestion, though, you might want to make your primary melee weapon something clericlike.  People still have a problem of thinking of clerics as healbots, so you using a morningstar or heavy flail will make them go 'ah, he's still a cleric'.  That said, you will probably be wanting to use a reach weapon most of the time.  I suggest one of those funky polehammers, with the 'hammer' part fluffed as a metal fist.  Because that's just cool.

Oh yeah, and don't forget, you're a cleric.  You have GMW and MV.  Don't buy magic enhancement pluses to your armour or magic weapons.  Spend your money on scrolls, wands, ancillary gear (like that holy symbol and nightsticks... there's lots of crap for clerics out there).  When buying special qualities.. make sure they're worth it.  Most aren't.  Mighty Cleaving might be a good place to start, or Brutal Surge... but for the love of god, unless you REALLY want to roleplay a burning cleric of burning things (idea:  be a cleric of the Burning Hate, i.e. pelor) with his fiery warhammer HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA firey weapon just really isn't worth it.  If you can afford it (you probably can't) +1 Soulfire Full-Plate might be worth it, in Ravenloft.

[Unbeliever]

From what you've said, I'd second Rejakor.  You can ease the Turning management by taking Radiant Servant, which will give you a bunch of Greater Turnings, freeing up the others (we don't let Greater Turnings power feats in my group).  I also agree w/ most of the rest of what Rejakor wrote.  The holy symbol dealy he/she mentions is a the Reliquary Holy Symbol in MIC.

You could, if you wanted to, probably make yourself immortal to hit point damage at level 8, which could be entertaining.  You will have about 2, maybe 3 spells to Persist, so yeah, there's that.  It puts a nice limitation on things, especially if you avoid (or don't have access to) troubling abilities like Polymorph.  Persistent Ice Axe is fun (though I'd probably use Energy Sub for a different energy), but it sounds like the power attack + touch attacks thing is already done.  Since you mentioned Bone Knight, I might be inclined to go for the invincible cleric uber-tank (tm), which could at least be entertaining.  It's different than just doing damage -- I guess it depends what you're interested in.  It could be made tactically interesting, depending on how you do it, if you take those 2 bodyguard feats from DotU. 

At any rate, this sounds like it will certainly work.  When you think you have a sense of exactly what you want to do, and I'm sure some easy tactics will present themselves. 

[Amoren]

The problem I'm having with bone knight is finding a way to enter it before level 10 without losing a cleric casting level.  The ONLY cleric prestige class I've found which continued cleric casting at first level, and gets ride as a class skill, is Seeker of the Misty Isle.  Which means I'd likely have to lose another caster level to Ordained Champion or Human Paragon, which means I'll be 2 caster levels behind...  Which probably won't matter much in this party, but still.  If I could find a way to get Ride as a Cleric Class Skill without dropping a caster level, I'd be more tempted to go Bone Knight.

And yeah, thinking of the Ice Axe thing...  It's basically what our warlock is doing - sans reach.  I don't want to step on his toes.

Anyway, the 'persist' buffs I were thinking of using were persist mass lesser vigor (everyone gets healed out of combat!), righteous wrath of the faithful (when I get to cast level 5 spells), and Divine Power (on me!).  However, Recitation looks nice - and helps make up for not persisting Divine Favor so I'll probably snag that.

Anyway, so far my current build is:
Cloistered Cleric 3, Church Inquisitor 1, Ordained Champion 2, Bone Knight 2

Feats are likely to be Able Learner (assuming Cloistered Cleric start to keep knowledge checks high), Metamagic Persist (Extend gained via Planning domain), DMM Persist, Practiced Caster (to make up for the loss of caster levels from Bone Knight and Ordained Champion), and Power Attack (by trading in Inquisition domain power).  
Domains: War, Planning, Knowledge (devotion), Inquisition (Church Inquisitor dip, trade for power attack), Undead (Bonus domain from Ordained Champion).  Pondering picking up Holy Warrior at level 9 since Spontaneous War Domain should count as a reserved spell...

I could swap to regular Cleric and be able to drop a level of Ordained Champion to take Bone Knight a level earlier, but not sure if being one level ahead for bone knight would be worth trading in knowledge devotion and all those skill points.

Edit: oh yes, I completely forgot my question.  I was wondering if the Fortifying Bedrolls from Complete Mage would refund his rebuke attempts after one hour rest?  In other words, while he wouldn't regain the spells he used for buffing, he could persist two spells, go to sleep for an hour, persist another two spells, etc.  And over a typical 8 hour rest, be capable of persisting 16 spells if he wanted to?  I know its likely broken if its allowed, but I won't abuse it (much!)

[Mixster]

Here's the cleric Handbook, there's lots of good stuff in there: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0

Prestige paladin has Ride as a class skill and can be entered at level 7 or something like that.
Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Radiant Servant of Pelor 2/Prestige Paladin 1, is possible around level 8 with partial BAB. And will give you the paladin spells as well. Which means you can Persist holy sword if you don't want to do the GMW thing: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holySword.htm
You'd have to be LG and worship Pelor though.

If you can stomach the cheese, a persisted Delay death makes you impervious to hit point damage, you just need to get up three minutes early every day where you are at negative hp.

If you get Inquisition Domain, you can sub it for Knowledge Devotion as well. But you can also throw it out with Ordained champion.

I don't really liked Ordained Champion and Bone Knight all that much though.

The Fortifying bedroll trick would work, but since each bedroll only works once per day you'd need multiple bedrolls. Too bad I never thought of this before.

[Amoren]

Yeah, I'm considering dropping Ordained Champion as well...  The abilities are nice and everything but a DMM Persist cleric is good enough at melee combat that it doesn't really need more, and since I want to primarily focus on buffing, then combat...  However, I don't think Prestige Paladin would work out.  It requires four ranks in ride, which while not as much as Bone Knight, still prohibits its entry until level 5, and it also requires Mounted Combat (which I don't think I'd use much).  Coupled with the fact we have a base paladin in the party, I don't think the DM would allow the prestige paladin.  Still, I could try to talk to him when I catch him on YIM, but I don't want to start working on a build involving Prestige Paladin until I've gotten the ok.  But Cleric 3-4/Church Inquisitor 0-1/Prestige Paladin 1/Bone Knight X seems like it'd make a great start if its allowed (even though I so want to take two levels in Prestige Paladin and get the Serenity feat...).

Also, I didn't read the caveat on the Bed Rolls.  Still, 3,000g to replenish all your turn/rebuke attempts in one hour is a lot cheaper than spending over 7,000g for 4 extra attempts.

I'm gonna avoid Persist Delay Death and not go near it with a 20ft pole...  But I'm keeping Bone Knight, I just love the flavor and being a (potentially) lawful good commander of undead!

Also, question.  There's a Fullblade exotic weapon, yes/no?  The character concept I'm starting to pull from this is an old story character of mine who used one...  if not, a greatsword should work just as well (I'm spending the 9,000g to get a +1 Animate Shield, so not to worry about that).

[geniussavant]

I've seen the ride/mounted combat requirement for prestige paladin waived by dropping the paladin's mount and skill access to ride. Maybe you could convince your DM of that. It would also help to differentiate yourself from the paladin already in the group.

[Rejakor]

Fullblades are fantastic.  Obviously they are less good than the spiked chain.  But they are so damn cool.

The problem with any kind of paladin is a) the code and b) stupid fucking retards who add their OWN conditions onto the code until you end up with sir-stick-up-his-ass-is-unplayable.

You can always dip pala 2 later.  When you reach the bone knight milestone you're mostly after.

[Mixster]

The problem with any kind of paladin is a) the code and b) stupid fucking retards who add their OWN conditions onto the code until you end up with sir-stick-up-his-ass-is-unplayable.

But most DMs go easy on you if you pose the argument: Is it you or me playing this character?

[Amoren]

Well, our DM isn't to stringent with paladins.  Besides the whole 'don't heal the person your party member is torturing so he can be tortured for longer' type deal.  And anyway, so far its the strongest way to enter for Bone Knight without waiting to get to level 9 for the ride skill without losing a caster level.  i mean c'mon, why can't there be a prestige class which gives ride skill and not lose a divine caster level!?  It's getting to the point that I'm about to say screw it and just burn a feat on Skill Training.

[Rejakor]

Apprentice/Mentor isn't a bad way to get a skill as a class skill.  Human Paragon gives full casting progression, doesn't it?

[Solo]

Lose a CL at first.

[Amoren]

Apprentice/Mentor isn't a bad way to get a skill as a class skill.  Human Paragon gives full casting progression, doesn't it?

What Solo said unfortunately, otherwise I would jump into human paragon for levels 2-4 levels immediately (and I think every other human spell caster would too!).  I took a look at Apprentice though, and it looks NICE (two new class skills and two bonus skill points to spend on them?  With a circumstance bonus and other bonuses as well!?).  Problem however is none of the given archetypes give Ride as an associated skill.  I could see if he'd allow a new archetype or just swap one of the associated skills in one category for another.  It certainly beats Skill Training/Knowledge or whatever at least.

[Rejakor]

Oh, I thought one of them gave Ride.

Just make a 'knight' one or whatever, you're going Bone Knight/Paladin so it makes sense.

[CrimsonDeath]

When I first saw "Ravenloft", I thought "Radiant Servant".  I'd love to run around exploding undead all over the landscape, especially if I could swing the Spontaneous Domain (Healing) ACF and get all my healing spells empowered and maximized.

When I saw "Melee Cleric" I thought "Ordained Champion".  I've been using Ordained Champion/Sacred Exorcist to make an actual playable Shugenja, so imagine what you can do with a Cleric base.  Your Ordained Champion build looks pretty good, and if you're worried about getting Atonement ASAP, see if you can buy a scroll.  They're only about a grand.

If you go through Prestiege Paladin, look into the Battle Blessing feat and find out if it works on all your spells or just the ones from the Pally list.