Author Topic: Eberron giant-themed anima mage  (Read 18223 times)

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spacemonkey555

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #60 on: April 11, 2011, 10:51:18 PM »
Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does. They do provide certain benefits (see below).

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level. They do provide certain benefits (see below).
This is a fail of epic proportions.  You can't just remove clauses whenever you feel like it, especially since the dependent clause is a qualifier of the first independent clause.  The fact that it says that it doesn't increase character level "in the way a normal class level does" implies that it does change your character level.
Not necessarily.  It really doesn't indicate one way or the other if it increases your character level.  It might not, or it might do so in an unusual way.  All we know for certain is that it doesn't increase character way in the usual way.
That's not how English works.  When you say something doesn't work normally, it means it works abnormally, not that it doesn't work.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2011, 10:57:30 PM by spacemonkey555 »

Gnomeo

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #61 on: April 12, 2011, 03:43:42 AM »

Actually, this just explains why we're using bloodline levels to increase character level.  Because a static level adjustment isn't good enough and so we use a dynamic level adjustment instead.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #62 on: April 12, 2011, 04:21:48 AM »
This is basic english, I'd fire any employee that couldn't parse this sentence, but then procedural mistakes cost a great deal in my line of work.
"A 'microwave oven' does not cook food the way a normal oven does, but they can be used for many recipes."

Your manner of parsing would conclude that a "microwave oven" cannot be used to cook things.  This is exactly the same sentence structure.
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spacemonkey555

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #63 on: April 12, 2011, 06:38:20 AM »
This is basic english, I'd fire any employee that couldn't parse this sentence, but then procedural mistakes cost a great deal in my line of work.
"A 'microwave oven' does not cook food the way a normal oven does, but they can be used for many recipes."

Your manner of parsing would conclude that a "microwave oven" cannot be used to cook things.  This is exactly the same sentence structure.

Exactly the same sentence structure, completely different meaning. The phrase "x doesn't y the way a z does" can obviously mean it doesn't do it, it doesn't do it as well, or it does it differently. The rule is complete without the sentence if your opinion is correct, since every class level normally raises character level. A statement that confirms the obvious is not going to be phrased as a negative, using a questionable dependent clause to establish a double negative, simply to establish normal operating procedure. The sentence would read "bloodline levels do increase character level the way normal class levels do, but only provide some benefits of a normal class level (see below.)" if your opinion were accurate.

spacemonkey555

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #64 on: April 12, 2011, 06:45:19 AM »
Actually, this just explains why we're using bloodline levels to increase character level.  Because a static level adjustment isn't good enough and so we use a dynamic level adjustment instead.

In that case, great, why add the sentence about bloodline levels not increasing character level, since that's what they're intended to do under your assumption. If your assumption were correct, the sentence should be a positive rather than a negative.

McPoyo

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #65 on: April 12, 2011, 09:33:45 AM »
In addition, how SHOULD they work via your interpretation? They don't change XP values, they don't count as "levels" to you, how do you determine XP costs to level up if they don't?
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
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Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
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[/spoiler]

Gnomeo

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #66 on: April 12, 2011, 01:58:37 PM »
Actually, this just explains why we're using bloodline levels to increase character level.  Because a static level adjustment isn't good enough and so we use a dynamic level adjustment instead.

In that case, great, why add the sentence about bloodline levels not increasing character level, since that's what they're intended to do under your assumption. If your assumption were correct, the sentence should be a positive rather than a negative.

Because there isn't a sentence about bloodline levels not increasing character level.  Your argument leaps from "Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does." to "Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level."  If I were to say: "A basketball does not bounce the way a superball does," would you argue that a basketball doesn't bounce?
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McPoyo

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #67 on: April 12, 2011, 02:03:28 PM »
And, to throw something else into this.

From the FAQ
Quote
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

spacemonkey555

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #68 on: April 12, 2011, 02:22:33 PM »
Actually, this just explains why we're using bloodline levels to increase character level.  Because a static level adjustment isn't good enough and so we use a dynamic level adjustment instead.

In that case, great, why add the sentence about bloodline levels not increasing character level, since that's what they're intended to do under your assumption. If your assumption were correct, the sentence should be a positive rather than a negative.

Because there isn't a sentence about bloodline levels not increasing character level.  Your argument leaps from "Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does." to "Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level."  If I were to say: "A basketball does not bounce the way a superball does," would you argue that a basketball doesn't bounce?

You aren't even reading my answers, that has been brought up. X doesn't y the way a z does can mean that x is nonfunctional for that purpose, inferior to z for that purpose, or operates differently than z. If the author meant only that bloodline levels operate differently, the sentence would not be needed.

spacemonkey555

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #69 on: April 12, 2011, 02:36:15 PM »
In addition, how SHOULD they work via your interpretation? They don't change XP values, they don't count as "levels" to you, how do you determine XP costs to level up if they don't?

There's a table for that in the phb. You're taking a level, which is priced based on your character level. It doesn't increment your character level, so your next level will cost the same.

McPoyo

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #70 on: April 12, 2011, 02:49:54 PM »
Except that table lists character level, not total possessed levels.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

spacemonkey555

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #71 on: April 12, 2011, 03:02:09 PM »
Except that table lists character level, not total possessed levels.

I don't see your point. Everyone knows your next class level is priced using your character level, or your ecl if you have a level adjustment. A normal level would push you up the chart to the next cost. A bloodline level doesn't increase character level the way a normal level does, so you don't move up the chart.

Benly

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #72 on: April 12, 2011, 04:10:12 PM »
I don't see your point. Everyone knows your next class level is priced using your character level, or your ecl if you have a level adjustment. A normal level would push you up the chart to the next cost. A bloodline level doesn't increase character level the way a normal level does, so you don't move up the chart.

Or it moves you up the chart but doesn't increase your HD or have all the other effects normally listed under "what happens when you gain a level", therefore increasing your level but not in the way a normal level does.

"Not in the way a normal level does" means there are some differences from how a normal level works. The text then proceeds to list some differences. With those differences, "not in the way a normal level does" is fulfilled. You are assuming that there must be more differences than that and then deciding what those differences must be, when there is no reason to assume that.

spacemonkey555

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #73 on: April 12, 2011, 04:36:42 PM »
I don't see your point. Everyone knows your next class level is priced using your character level, or your ecl if you have a level adjustment. A normal level would push you up the chart to the next cost. A bloodline level doesn't increase character level the way a normal level does, so you don't move up the chart.

Or it moves you up the chart but doesn't increase your HD or have all the other effects normally listed under "what happens when you gain a level", therefore increasing your level but not in the way a normal level does.

"Not in the way a normal level does" means there are some differences from how a normal level works. The text then proceeds to list some differences. With those differences, "not in the way a normal level does" is fulfilled. You are assuming that there must be more differences than that and then deciding what those differences must be, when there is no reason to assume that.

You're assuming class levels grant benefits by increasing character level. This is not true. Class levels raise character level, and provide benefits. They do not provide benefits which increase character level. Character level is in the glossary, it is simply the sum of your class levels, and has nothing to do with what you get from those class levels.

Your position is that the author is saying we need a new mechanic to raise ecl gradually, we're going to use class levels instead of level adjust to get that job done. Fine, but if this is the case it is incorrect to say that they don't raise character level the way a normal class level does, because bloodline levels would increase character level exactly as a normal class level does. They would give less benefits, which is irrelevant to character level, since it is just a class level counter.

The author used a negative, he wrote they do not. The clause "the way a normal class level does" would support your position, if and only if he detailed a method of increasing character level. He did not. Bloodline levels don't add level adjust, don't add hit dice, and specifically do not add to character level.

McPoyo

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #74 on: April 12, 2011, 05:20:54 PM »
Actually, the position is the author is saying instead of lumping you with an LA all at once, we're going to gradually apply it, but not shaft you in the process by giving you these benefits instead of a regular LA fucking you in the ass, or a regular level providing hit die, skill points, and potentially class features.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

CrimsonDeath

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #75 on: April 12, 2011, 05:24:43 PM »
Actually, this just explains why we're using bloodline levels to increase character level.  Because a static level adjustment isn't good enough and so we use a dynamic level adjustment instead.

In that case, great, why add the sentence about bloodline levels not increasing character level, since that's what they're intended to do under your assumption. If your assumption were correct, the sentence should be a positive rather than a negative.

Because there isn't a sentence about bloodline levels not increasing character level.  Your argument leaps from "Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does." to "Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level."  If I were to say: "A basketball does not bounce the way a superball does," would you argue that a basketball doesn't bounce?

You aren't even reading my answers, that has been brought up. X doesn't y the way a z does can mean that x is nonfunctional for that purpose, inferior to z for that purpose, or operates differently than z. If the author meant only that bloodline levels operate differently, the sentence would not be needed.

But like I said, that just means that sentence doesn't provide any information at all about whether or not bloodline levels increase character levels.

Except that table lists character level, not total possessed levels.

I don't see your point. Everyone knows your next class level is priced using your character level, or your ecl if you have a level adjustment. A normal level would push you up the chart to the next cost. A bloodline level doesn't increase character level the way a normal level does, so you don't move up the chart.
So if bloodline levels don't increase your ECL the way LA does, that means you can't buy them off.  Not that you'd want to, since the only way to get any benefit from them would be by still having them.

spacemonkey555

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #76 on: April 12, 2011, 07:01:04 PM »
Actually, the position is the author is saying instead of lumping you with an LA all at once, we're going to gradually apply it, but not shaft you in the process by giving you these benefits instead of a regular LA fucking you in the ass, or a regular level providing hit die, skill points, and potentially class features.

Right, so the author was trying to convey that bloodline class levels are a gradual way of raising ecl, and wrote "bloodline levels don't raise character level the way a normal class level does" to communicate that. I get the argument, I just don't agree.

spacemonkey555

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #77 on: April 12, 2011, 07:10:26 PM »
So if bloodline levels don't increase your ECL the way LA does, that means you can't buy them off.  Not that you'd want to, since the only way to get any benefit from them would be by still having them.

You can only buy off level adjustment, as far as I know. LA buyoff is a separate rule in the same chapter. Some see bloodline class levels as similar to that mechanic, thinking of them as "bought off" with respect to ecl as they're purchased, but that's just an expression. You're still gaining a class level, just as you still have a racial benefit after you buy off the level adjustment for it.

CrimsonDeath

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #78 on: April 12, 2011, 07:19:47 PM »
So if bloodline levels don't increase your ECL the way LA does, that means you can't buy them off.  Not that you'd want to, since the only way to get any benefit from them would be by still having them.

You can only buy off level adjustment, as far as I know. LA buyoff is a separate rule in the same chapter. Some see bloodline class levels as similar to that mechanic, thinking of them as "bought off" with respect to ecl as they're purchased, but that's just an expression. You're still gaining a class level, just as you still have a racial benefit after you buy off the level adjustment for it.
I only mention it because someone mentioned hypothetically using LA buyoff on bloodline levels (and the fact that they're in the same chapter was cited as support for the tactic).  I was calling back to that discussion.

Although, the way you describe it-- gaining a level that grants racial traits rather than HD-- it sounds like a monstrous progression.

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #79 on: April 12, 2011, 09:37:16 PM »
In order to come to the conclusion that bloodline class levels don't increase character level you have to read the sentence in a way that is extremely uncommon in the English language. However, it could work, theoretically.

A quick example might be (it took me a while to actually come up with this, which shows how uncommon the usage is):

"Nudists do not wear clothes the way normal people do, but they do many other things in a traditional way."

That sentence probably can have holes poked in the logic, but whatever. It requires some crazy mental gymnastics to get to the point where class levels don't actually increase your character level at all.
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