Author Topic: Why must unarmed damage suck?  (Read 6063 times)

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Endarire

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Why must unarmed damage suck?
« on: March 31, 2011, 11:52:24 PM »
An Unarmed Swordsage1 is doing d6 base damage +his STR mod.  He could use a greatsword and get 2d6 + 1.5x his STR bonus.  His reach is probably identical for these attack methods.

I know there are plenty of ways to increase unarmed damage  I feel disappointed that I must ease into unarmed damage if I want to be optimal.

What are your thoughts?
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Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Kajhera

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Re: Why must unarmed damage suck?
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2011, 12:06:31 AM »
... Perhaps because a sword is, in fact, a more effective weapon than a hand? *shrug*.

Tenebrus

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Re: Why must unarmed damage suck?
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2011, 01:06:05 AM »
Indeed.  Peasants fought with their hands and grain flails because it was all they had, not because some genius discovered their secret value.

And now to completely contradict myself:

I've toyed with the idea of letting every character do base damage based on their hit dice type (-1 if not a martial weapon, +1 if it is, +1 more if 2 handed, etc).  The rules contort themselves to promote this idea, giving d4 wizards daggers and darts and d6 rogues shortswords, and d8 clerics some d8 maces and fighters whatever they want.  You can fudge, but we end up with d4 people doing d4, d6 people doing d6, d8 people doing d8, and d10 & d12 people doing more. 

My rationale: I would rather fight a wizard with a chainsaw than Conan with a spoon because Conan knows 100 ways to hurt you and the wizard is lucky to point the chainsaw, or any other weapon, the right way.  The PERSON is doing the damage, not the weapon; by itself, the weapon sits quietly on the floor.  In the real world (dangerous, but bear with me), trained hands can kill with drinking straws and ballpoint pens.  And you could forget an entire chart in the PH!

As an example, I would love to run a peasant hero who whacks people with a frying pan or stays true to his roots and gets really good with his pitchfork (power critical, improved critical, etc.).  But the hit for the sake of role playing is too high in keeping your d6 rake and not picking up the greatsword.   

So, am I insane?


Solo

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Re: Why must unarmed damage suck?
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2011, 01:20:05 AM »
If only we played a system where damage was dealt based on the level of the person and their class, not so much their equipment.

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Tenebrus

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Re: Why must unarmed damage suck?
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2011, 01:31:04 AM »
Well, let's do that.  d20 Star Wars, in one of its incarnations, allowed you to add your level to your damage to reflect that your skill in inflicting damage has gone up like your skill in taking it (the ideology behind hit points).

veekie

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Re: Why must unarmed damage suck?
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2011, 01:45:47 AM »
My solution for that is to expand the proficiency system actually. Not pursue raw damage exactly, but to make each weapon provide particular perks on top of scaling up damage(static increases for the most part).

You'd then have proficiency ranks(0 = nonproficient, 3 = exotic), and particular weapons have minimum proficiencies to use effectively. These ranks can be weapon specific(if obtained via feats) or general(if obtained via class profs).
At the same level of proficiency, all weapons are theoretically equal, but some are based on versatility(unarmed strikes and quarterstaves would focus more on the special moves you can pull with them, with a minor minus on unarmed strikes due to being always armed), some on particular tactics(most polearms and shields) and all with straight statistical improvements similar to Weapon Focus/Specialization.

So Wizards would start with proficiency 1 in a handful of weapons(0 in everything else), Sorcs would start with a broad based proficiency 1, clerics might get a broad based proficiency 1 with 2 in their deity's favorite toy, Fighters get a broad based 2, Monks getting a broad based 1 and 3s in unarmed strikes and special monk weapons.
Then raise proficiency rank by 1 across the board for every 2 points of BAB. The proficiency feat raises it by another 1 for a specific weapon(capped at 1 feat per weapon). Weapon Focus and Specialization become fighter class features to get higher proficiency in specific weapons like the feat does, not sure if I want this to break the 1 feat per weapon cap.
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Tenebrus

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Re: Why must unarmed damage suck?
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2011, 01:22:44 PM »
Ahh!  More charts rather than less! 

I'd also put my HD=damage dice experiment in with another: losing Str as a modifier to hit.  It hurts the PCs some but hurts the monsters a whole lot more and hopefully produces longer combats where skill (BAB) has the edge over bulk (Str 34 monsters that are innately as able to hit as a 12th level fighter).

RobbyPants

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Re: Why must unarmed damage suck?
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2011, 03:39:37 PM »
I guess it depends on what you want your game world to model.  If you're looking for "realism", then yes: using a hand his demonstrably inferior to using a weapon.  If you're looking for a game that has monks in it as something other than a retarded trap option, then no: you need damage to be based more on level than equipment (or some other incentive).

Personally, this being a game about people that fly and fight dragons, I'm more inclined to lean toward the latter.
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veekie

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Re: Why must unarmed damage suck?
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2011, 04:57:42 PM »
Well, I like charts, they add detail which can be used to help guide roleplaying. And attaching the main means of weapon versatility increase to BAB helps make it matter more. I figure also that the base weapon damage matters really little in the grand scheme of things, its all about the special tricks(hence why the Lance, Reach weapons and tripping weapons persist in usefulness through the ages)
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

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altpersona

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Re: Why must unarmed damage suck?
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2011, 05:46:32 PM »
hmm, intriguing question, dull flesh and bone vs. sharpened steel. how could sharp steel ever be better than flesh/bone? what were they thinking.

how bout 2handing your unarmed for more str bonus.

im a wrong in thinking that for melee damage, the weapon damage is the least part of the formula?

multipliers and modifiers are the key, dosnt matter if its a sap or a great sword. excepting for size i guess, garg weapons make an impact (8d6 is a good starting point for any melee attack)
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Re: Why must unarmed damage suck?
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2011, 06:38:44 PM »
Hey, I knew a girl in college who could punch through solid brick bare-handed. She was about 5'2", couldn't have weighed more than 90 lbs, and was skinny as a stick.

And yet I watched her compete in boxing matches against men whose biceps alone were nearly as thick as her waist, and most of her matches ended in OHKOs...

...for her opponents.

Seriously, if she hadn't been one of the sweetest people I'd ever met, she'd be friggin' terrifying.
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Re: Why must unarmed damage suck?
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2011, 08:18:50 PM »
Are you sure that you didn't just fell asleep watching Serenity? My mind sort of wants to believe that what you are saying os untrue, such a small person would be at a massive disadvantage against guys that much bigger than her, and not to mention, how on earth did she end up in the guys weight class? And since when did mixed gender boxing matches become normal? You know what, I am going to disbelieve you, if only just to preserve sanity.

90-pounds-when-soaking-wet ninja girls has to be the second scariest thing on the planet, right after killer clowns.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Why must unarmed damage suck?
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2011, 08:39:07 PM »
Are you sure that you didn't just fell asleep watching Serenity? My mind sort of wants to believe that what you are saying os untrue, such a small person would be at a massive disadvantage against guys that much bigger than her, and not to mention, how on earth did she end up in the guys weight class? And since when did mixed gender boxing matches become normal? You know what, I am going to disbelieve you, if only just to preserve sanity.

90-pounds-when-soaking-wet ninja girls has to be the second scariest thing on the planet, right after killer clowns.
Nobody else sat within 2 weight classes of her, and she was banned from the women's boxing matches because she damaged them too badly.

She married another friend of mine, a 7'2" kickboxer, and they enjoyed beating each other up in the ring. The only reason he could match her was because his reach was more than 3x hers, what with those legs of his.

Oh, and she was no longer allowed to use the heavy-bags at her gym; she kept tearing them out of the steel-reinforced concrete ceiling.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
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[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
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Re: Why must unarmed damage suck?
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2011, 08:53:16 PM »
Is she related to MitD by any chance?

Im going to say pics or it didn't happen, and possibly leave the discussion at that. I may be a d&d player, but my imagination only stretches so far.

oslecamo

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Re: Why must unarmed damage suck?
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2011, 08:54:12 PM »
Because D&D is heavily equipment based.

If people hit as hard with their fists as manufactured weapons, then nobody bothers crafting super swords.

I dunno about you, but it just feels wrong that somebody must quest for the super sword of awesomness, kill its guardian, replenish its essence, find the super blacksmith to repair its cracks, and then learn how to use it, and the dude next to him just needs to learn how to use his fists.

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Littha

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Re: Why must unarmed damage suck?
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2011, 08:58:06 PM »
I was always rather fond of letting gauntlets scale with unarmed damage for monks, nice way of enchanting your attacks. Plus partially at least supported by the RAW
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Gauntlet
This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets.

Endarire

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Re: Why must unarmed damage suck?
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2011, 11:47:04 PM »
At least Swordsages have the maneuvers for Burning Blade, etc.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Tenebrus

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Re: Why must unarmed damage suck?
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2011, 02:27:37 AM »
My point was from a role-playing standpoint, it doesn't matter how you do your damage.  It only matters mechanically, with the vast majority of players taking the best weapon whether it fits their concept or not.  I would rather put concept first and not cripple a player for wanting to be true to their concept as Farmboy or Peasant Hero or whatever.  Let your kung fu guy do his damage as a fighter, not as a collection of knuckles, like Conan and the spoon in the previous example.  Everyone doesn't need to pack a greatsword and a maximized composite longbow. 

Pish, I say.  Concentrate on the character, have 1 less thing to munchkin, and play for the story.  Why not just say they're fighters with martial weapons, so they all do 1d10+1 base damage? I'm thinking that throwing all of this away rather than bother fixing it.  Am I missing anything important in this proposal?

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Re: Why must unarmed damage suck?
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2011, 07:35:28 AM »
My point was from a role-playing standpoint, it doesn't matter how you do your damage.  It only matters mechanically, with the vast majority of players taking the best weapon whether it fits their concept or not.  I would rather put concept first and not cripple a player for wanting to be true to their concept as Farmboy or Peasant Hero or whatever.  Let your kung fu guy do his damage as a fighter, not as a collection of knuckles, like Conan and the spoon in the previous example.  Everyone doesn't need to pack a greatsword and a maximized composite longbow. 

Pish, I say.  Concentrate on the character, have 1 less thing to munchkin, and play for the story.  Why not just say they're fighters with martial weapons, so they all do 1d10+1 base damage? I'm thinking that throwing all of this away rather than bother fixing it.  Am I missing anything important in this proposal?

Yes! With all weapons being exactly the same, the variation will be endless. Finally, I can play a sword & board fighter and not worrying about not doing well compared to fighters that use optimal weapons like spiked chains, guisarmes, greatswords and lances! But wait! The wizard is still better, and that makes me sad. We need to take it further! Every character, no matter their class should deal 1d10+primary stat mod in melee, and 1d8+primary stat mod ranged. Wizards call their attacks 'spells', while fighters use 'weapons'. For defence, fighters use 'armor' while wizards use 'mages robes'. The stats will be identical, so that there wont be any good or bad choices to make, cuz d&d is all about flavor. There, now this stupid thing known as builds matter 0%, and concept is at 100% where it belongs... I call it d&d 5th edition.

Now if you would excuse me, I have this concept of a noble knight who fights evil armed only with a table leg that I need to flesh out, now that it is finally vaiable.

PS: 6th edition will be coming soon! It consists of a note that says 'you win', and nothin else.

veekie

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Re: Why must unarmed damage suck?
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2011, 09:42:17 AM »
^^
Sarcasm aside, the idea is solid. Don't have inferior weapons, have differently effective ones. If anything my variant proficiencies thingy has plenty of material to populate it with up to Proficiency 6 or so just from what I remember of some swordsmanship manuals off the internet. Theres a lot of tricks to them beyond putting the pointy end in the other guy with a vigorous arm motion.

EDIT:
And I think throwing video games and some fiction in probably gives material to Proficiency 10 for most of the popular weapon types, as well as superexotic(read, totally impractical without fantastical skill, Proficiency 4+) weapons like yoyos.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2011, 09:48:01 AM by veekie »
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."